I still don't want to fire Zac the "HC". I'm on the fence leaning hard towards firing Zac the "OC". 1. I'm just not sure I'm a believer in the committee concept with play calling? 2. I don't get why they abandon the run after the first qtr. in nearly every game.

In the past I haven't gave a lot of thought to Joe Burrow being part of the squashing the run game early team, but it seems like he is? But to me that is also coaching's responsibility.

When JB is on and healthy and everything is clicking we don't need that much of a run game, I get it. But anytime there's waves on the ocean for whatever reasons? We need a running game. Later in the season a running game becomes "more needed". on and on.

I'm hoping "they" fix it during the rest of this season and especially this offseason.

I don't necessarily agree with firing Zac but is is such a stretch to question him given how the season is progressing? We're the literal definition of first to worst in the division. It is an extremely high probability we get completely swept in the division.

Theres obviously some issues with this team that fall on his shoulders. We came into this season with superbowl winning aspirations. Expectations have continued to decline from there to now expecting to have a top draft pick.

(12-04-2023, 01:46 PM)R3stangs Wrote: I don't necessarily agree with firing Zac but is is such a stretch to question him given how the season is progressing? We're the literal definition of first to worst in the division. It is an extremely high probability we get completely swept in the division.

Theres obviously some issues with this team that fall on his shoulders. We came into this season with superbowl winning aspirations. Expectations have continued to decline from there to now expecting to have a top draft pick.

The season? Let’s take a look. Joe not close to 100%. Blame could be assessed that we weren’t smart with a poor backup. Start 0-3 But we were up ticking with a dismantling of SF 31-17 with 29 first downs (Samuel’s absence nothing burger here) 400 yards . We took it to them early and dominated. Then went and beat the Bills with 397 total offense. We dug a hole but let’s not blame the missing out on a Super Bowl season because of any other reason than Joe’s health. Would we have improved enough? Who knows but the SF win was indicative of a pretty good team.

(12-04-2023, 12:10 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Lamar vs Joe the last 3 seasons is 2-1 ( not counting the second game this year when Joe went down the second quarter. Does count the first game this year where we lost 27-24 with Joe not 100%.  Cincy 82-63 in points scored.

Let's not pick and choose time frames.  Lamar is 3-1 vs Burrow.  Cincy 90-85 points scored.   We had one big win.  This does not count the game Burrow injured his wrist.

(12-04-2023, 12:50 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Except we did, though. It may not have been successful, but we switched to a 100% shotgun, short passing, QB ain't moving, get the ball out NOW scheme. Argue all you want about what other options Zac, Callahan, and Burrow should've chosen instead, but to say they didn't change their scheme even "a little" is disingenuous


I agree, too bad people aren't looking at this situation honestly. 

Yeah we are looking at it honestly. Burrow rushing thru his progressions because he knows he can't extend the play and then checking down quickly to our check down player standing still is a brilliant scheme change. As well as going from 98% shotgun to 100% also brilliant. So glad we can all see this with 100% clarity now.

(12-04-2023, 12:21 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm sure they were. My point was we did not face a full strength 49ers team. People pointing out what we did to the 49ers compared to what the 49ers do to another team when they are full strength isn't a fair comparison.

The defense we scored 31 points, 29 first downs, and 400 yards was full strength.

(12-04-2023, 02:02 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The defense we scored 31 points, 29 first downs, and 400 yards was full strength.

The defense may have been their real problem during that little slump stretch they had. Let's not forget PJ Walker beat them a couple of weeks earlier.

(12-04-2023, 01:34 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I still don't want to fire Zac the "HC". I'm on the fence leaning hard towards firing Zac the "OC". 1. I'm just not sure I'm a believer in the committee concept with play calling? 2. I don't get why they abandon the run after the first qtr. in nearly every game.

Exactly how I feel.

Personally, I think we need to ditch the playcall-by-committee approach. Just have 1 person do it, Zac, Brian, hell Burrow could do it if he wants. However, if the offense is not 'good enough', then that person is replaced. If it's Zac, that means he gives up playcalling, but he can still be the HC which he's clearly pretty good at.

(12-04-2023, 02:01 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Yeah we are looking at it honestly. Burrow rushing thru his progressions because he knows he can't extend the play and then checking down quickly to our check down player standing still is a brilliant scheme change. As well as going from 98% shotgun to 100% also brilliant. So glad we can all see this with 100% clarity now.

As I said, it wasn't successful but it was still a scheme change which you said didn't happen. So, t sounds like you just want to be critical for critical's sake and NOT looking at things honestly, despite what your previous post said.

(12-04-2023, 01:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, I am being honest. Our fans are talking up an opponent's HC. Our fans are bashing our HC because he can't scheme around Jake Browning to win. I just pointed out Shanny couldn't scheme around losing Deebo, because their offense was anemic while he was out. It's almost like losing your best player affects a team.....

I don't think Deebo is even there best player. I think he's worth mentioning because he can give you easy scores where he takes a swing pass thru traffic to the house. But his 1st game back he did score but wasn't all that impressive stat wise besides that and they won big. If I was gonna point to something on they're team during the 3 game slump I would say they're defense struggled. 
But I don't think people are hating on Taylor because he can't scheme around Browning (atleast I'm not ). It's because he can't get the run game going even win the time calls for that to be a focal point he refuses to put the pressure anywhere but on the QBs shoulders. So yes that does include Browning but that's just one instance over 5 years.

(12-04-2023, 02:16 PM)PhilHos Wrote: As I said, it wasn't successful but it was still a scheme change which you said didn't happen. So, t sounds like you just want to be critical for critical's sake and NOT looking at things honestly, despite what your previous post said.

Your QB speeding thru his progressions because he's not comfortable and knows he can't extend the play is not a scheme change. I am looking at it honestly. If these short passes included players coming across the field or misdirection I would agree. But having X player stand still ( which we tend to do with our check down players normally ) is not an attempted solution to a problem. 

(12-04-2023, 01:18 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno about that, Miami had some high powered offenses during his tenure with the Canes. 

Not gonna lie. I have absolutely no knowledge of Johnson other than the Cowboy's were in the superbowl alot when I was a kid. But looking him up he started his career as a defensive coordinator so I'm assuming he didn't call the offense?

(12-04-2023, 02:08 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: The defense may have been their real problem during that little slump stretch they had. Let's not forget PJ Walker beat them a couple of weeks earlier.

We were discussing Shanahan scheming around Debo brilliantly and how he’s so good and Zac not. And SF wasn’t at full strength. They weren’t offensively. Like I said 31 points 29 first downs and 400 yards offense was tge difference and their defense got wrecked. I’m just countering that the offense did their part exponentially. SF was full strength on defense and we balled out.

(12-04-2023, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Exactly how I feel.

Personally, I think we need to ditch the playcall-by-committee approach. Just have 1 person do it, Zac, Brian, hell Burrow could do it if he wants. However, if the offense is not 'good enough', then that person is replaced. If it's Zac, that means he gives up playcalling, but he can still be the HC which he's clearly pretty good at.

Are we sure that it's a play call by committee?  FWIW, I like HCs to be the 'big picture' guys, guys who hire men they trust to implement and call the shots for their respective offensive and defensive philosophies.  I get 'situational interjection' by the HC when he feels absolutely compelled to, otherwise why hire coordinators that you don't trust to make the general calls?

(12-04-2023, 02:30 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Not gonna lie. I have absolutely no knowledge of Johnson other than the Cowboy's were in the superbowl alot when I was a kid. But looking him up he started his career as a defensive coordinator so I'm assuming he didn't call the offense?

I'm a FSU fan, so I know all too well about Jimmy Johnson and "wide right".   

He didn't call anything at Miami, his coordinators did. He's a damn fine coach, but even he couldn't drag the Dolphins to the promised land. 

(12-04-2023, 02:24 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I don't think Deebo is even there best player. I think he's worth mentioning because he can give you easy scores where he takes a swing pass thru traffic to the house. But his 1st game back he did score but wasn't all that impressive stat wise besides that and they won big. If I was gonna point to something on they're team during the 3 game slump I would say they're defense struggled. 
But I don't think people are hating on Taylor because he can't scheme around Browning (atleast I'm not ). It's because he can't get the run game going even win the time calls for that to be a focal point he refuses to put the pressure anywhere but on the QBs shoulders. So yes that does include Browning but that's just one instance over 5 years.

I agree about the run game. It's time to reevaluate philosophy there, and also scrap the personnel.

I believe Deebo is that. Watch those Philly highlights. Not only does he break those catches open, but he's a real weapon in the run game too. CMC is obviously a stud, and so is Kittle, but neither is as dynamic as Samuel, imo.

(12-04-2023, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Exactly how I feel.

Personally, I think we need to ditch the playcall-by-committee approach. Just have 1 person do it, Zac, Brian, hell Burrow could do it if he wants. However, if the offense is not 'good enough', then that person is replaced. If it's Zac, that means he gives up playcalling, but he can still be the HC which he's clearly pretty good at.

I agree. I get people don't want to change something that's generally worked. I'm not saying fire Taylor as there are several things he's done that I like and he's certainly deserving of some of the credit for our success. But we need to get rid of the committee approach so we can have accountability when things aren't working and make positive changes. I think we need a overall change at OC to try and get the run game fixed and try make things easier on Burrow. Let's not forget he only has a 50% success rate at making it thru the season healthy and I'm not suggesting that blame gets put anywhere. But I'm generally worried about this recent injury. Has anyone heard a timeline since his surgery? I'm also worried with the wrist injury in general lingering and the fact that he likes to flex his hand/wrist after passes in practice if he has some underlying wrist issues that led to this injury.

(12-04-2023, 02:30 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Not gonna lie. I have absolutely no knowledge of Johnson other than the Cowboy's were in the superbowl alot when I was a kid. But looking him up he started his career as a defensive coordinator so I'm assuming he didn't call the offense?

It’s the total picture. Zac gets blamed for his first 2 seasons around here yet many HOF coaches did poorly until they got some draft picks. Johnson is an example. Zac is only successful because he has Joe. Belicheck is under .500 without Brady. Saban failed at the Dolphins w/o a good QB. Andy Reid had poor QB play at Philly and got FIRED. Tom Landry started out atrocious. The Bengals roster was much worse than many Bengal fans realize or will admit and the defeatist culture even worse.

(12-04-2023, 02:38 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I agree. I get people don't want to change something that's generally worked. I'm not saying fire Taylor as there are several things he's done that I like and he's certainly deserving of some of the credit for our success. But we need to get rid of the committee approach so we can have accountability when things aren't working and make positive changes. I think we need a overall change at OC to try and get the run game fixed and try make things easier on Burrow. Let's not forget he only has a 50% success rate at making it thru the season healthy and I'm not suggesting that blame gets put anywhere. But I'm generally worried about this recent injury. Has anyone heard a timeline since his surgery? I'm also worried with the wrist injury in general lingering and the fact that he likes to flex his hand/wrist after passes in practice if he has some underlying wrist issues that led to this injury.

If anything, they should have learned their lesson about skimping on backup QB. I also think the committee approach seems too cumbersome.

(12-04-2023, 02:38 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I agree. I get people don't want to change something that's generally worked. I'm not saying fire Taylor as there are several things he's done that I like and he's certainly deserving of some of the credit for our success. But we need to get rid of the committee approach so we can have accountability when things aren't working and make positive changes. I think we need an overall change at OC to try and get the run game fixed and try make things easier on Burrow. Let's not forget he only has a 50% success rate at making it thru the season healthy and I'm not suggesting that blame gets put anywhere. But I'm generally worried about this recent injury. Has anyone heard a timeline since his surgery? I'm also worried with the wrist injury in general lingering and the fact that he likes to flex his hand/wrist after passes in practice if he has some underlying wrist issues that led to this injury.

We need a new OL coach that can contribute to the scheme instead of just try to make them mean and eat glass.