Like many of you, I shake my head at the way the Bengals’ secondary is weak against the pass. In 2021 and 2022 Lou Anarumo was the secondary whisperer and the things the safeties and cornerbacks could do were nothing short of astounding.

Now, during the game day threads everyone consistently criticizes Lou for allowing too many completed passes. After careful analysis I believe I have figured out what is going on. NOTE: I’m not saying I agree with what Lou is doing — but I understand it.

First of all, losing Von Bell and Jessie Bates III was more devastating than anyone anticipated. At the end of the 2020 season the secondary was lighting up receivers. Heck, JuJu Smith-Schuster is still reeling from that infamous Von Bell hit.

It took Lou at least one season to develop Bell and Bates into the NFL’s best safety tandem. The same will occur for Jordan Battle and Dax Hill. Right now Battle and Hill are where Bell and Bates were in 2020. It takes time and talent to develop safeties.

Right now Lou is training Battle and Hill to play over the top and guard against huge pass plays. It’s called keeping the ball in front of you and it’s a fundamental of good safety play. This means allowing short and medium length passes to be completed. Basically, allowing a fifteen or twenty yard completion is better than allowing a forty yard bomb over the top.

As their proficiency increases we will see less short and medium length passes completed. It’s a work in progress.

Agreed that losing Bates and Bell has been devastating. Not sure it was more devastating than anyone anticipated: I think Lou was very clear about the consequences before they signed elsewhere.

I hope your analysis is accurate, that Lou is now training their replacements and we should soon see steady improvement versus the passing game. Bates has played at an all-pro level so far this season, and Bell has been excellent as well. The losses of those two may be the principal reason the defense has declined so much in one year.

The defense needs to get fixed soon while the Bengals are still in the playoff hunt. The defense's performance this year may also cost Lou a head-coaching opportunity. How do you sell a fan base on a new head coach if as DC his defense overall was ranked 32nd in terms of yards yielded per game, and also 6th lowest in pass defense, which is where the current Bengals defense stands?

I have said it since the beginning of the season, Lou is great DC but he is not a miracle worker. You cant take Bates, Bell and Apple away from this defense and expect Lou's defense to be as good. It amazes me people complain about Lou when the Bengals allowed a good bit of talent from his defense to leave. The young guys just are not there yet. It should be obvious to everyone we miss Bates, Bell and Apple on this defense.

(12-05-2023, 11:21 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Like many of you, I shake my head at the way the Bengals’ secondary is weak against the pass.  In 2021 and 2022 Lou Anarumo was the secondary whisperer and the things the safeties and cornerbacks could do were nothing short of astounding.  

Now, during the game day threads everyone consistently criticizes Lou for allowing too many completed passes.  After careful analysis I believe I have figured out what is going on.  NOTE:  I’m not saying I agree with what Lou is doing — but I understand it.

First of all, losing Von Bell and Jessie Bates III was more devastating than anyone anticipated. At the end of the 2020 season the secondary was lighting up receivers.  Heck, JuJu Smith-Schuster is still reeling from that infamous Von Bell hit.

It took Lou at least one season to develop Bell and Bates into the NFL’s best safety tandem.  The same will occur for Jordan Battle and Dax Hill.  Right now Battle and Hill are where Bell and Bates were in 2020.  It takes time and talent to develop safeties.  

Right now Lou is training Battle and Hill to play over the top and guard against huge pass plays.  It’s called keeping the ball in front of you and it’s a fundamental of good safety play.  This means allowing short and medium length passes to be completed.  Basically, allowing a fifteen or twenty yard completion is better than allowing a forty yard bomb over the top.

As their proficiency increases we will see less short and medium length passes completed.  It’s a work in progress.

Yes, and as Dax and Jordan get experience those completed passes will not happen near as much. They are gaining their experience 
and it will grow them into instinctual players that will see these plays happen in their minds before they happen and they will start to 
jump routes like Bates does now and make game changing plays. Dax is an insane athlete with all the talent in the world and Battle 
has great instincts and is a good tackler. These guys could be better than Bates and Bell.

It does not help that they are playing with DJ Turner. That's three new starters (and 4 players new to each other) trying to develop communication while learning their assignments. One of the things I've seen (I think) is that Bengals DBs are actually too rigid in their zones and unwilling to "cheat" even when there's no apparent threat keeping them honest.

(12-05-2023, 11:21 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Like many of you, I shake my head at the way the Bengals’ secondary is weak against the pass.  In 2021 and 2022 Lou Anarumo was the secondary whisperer and the things the safeties and cornerbacks could do were nothing short of astounding.  

Now, during the game day threads everyone consistently criticizes Lou for allowing too many completed passes.  After careful analysis I believe I have figured out what is going on.  NOTE:  I’m not saying I agree with what Lou is doing — but I understand it.

First of all, losing Von Bell and Jessie Bates III was more devastating than anyone anticipated. At the end of the 2020 season the secondary was lighting up receivers.  Heck, JuJu Smith-Schuster is still reeling from that infamous Von Bell hit.

It took Lou at least one season to develop Bell and Bates into the NFL’s best safety tandem.  The same will occur for Jordan Battle and Dax Hill.  Right now Battle and Hill are where Bell and Bates were in 2020.  It takes time and talent to develop safeties.  

Right now Lou is training Battle and Hill to play over the top and guard against huge pass plays.  It’s called keeping the ball in front of you and it’s a fundamental of good safety play.  This means allowing short and medium length passes to be completed.  Basically, allowing a fifteen or twenty yard completion is better than allowing a forty yard bomb over the top.

As their proficiency increases we will see less short and medium length passes completed.  It’s a work in progress.

Smh...Battle, he is coming along. Turner got boxed out and completely blocked on the Engram TD. Hill done the same. Hill also didn't finish and gave up a tuddy to Jim Bob from nowhere USA. 

Bell and Bates are vets. They are both strides above everyone in the secondary except for CTB. Personally, I don't think that Hill will be here for much more than a cup of coffee unless he turns it loose and plays up to his potential. I get it, first year starting at FS. He better make leaps and bounds between this year and next if he wants to keep his job.  

Hill doesn't finish and he tackles like *****. 

Agreed. I think they thought that Dax was almost ready and Scott would be a decent stopgap for this season. But Dax was not quite there and Scott has been a disaster.

The Bengals are the 32nd overall defense, 27th passing defense (32nd in YPA), 27th rushing defense (31st in Rushing YPC), and 22nd scoring defense.

This isn't just Lou needing a year to develop a new safety tandem.

The DB's are very green as a whole and it will get much better as time goes by imo.

Awuzie not returning to a shut down corner is a big difference as well. Maybe next year he gets that step back.

(12-05-2023, 11:21 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Like many of you, I shake my head at the way the Bengals’ secondary is weak against the pass.  In 2021 and 2022 Lou Anarumo was the secondary whisperer and the things the safeties and cornerbacks could do were nothing short of astounding.  

Now, during the game day threads everyone consistently criticizes Lou for allowing too many completed passes.  After careful analysis I believe I have figured out what is going on.  NOTE:  I’m not saying I agree with what Lou is doing — but I understand it.

First of all, losing Von Bell and Jessie Bates III was more devastating than anyone anticipated. At the end of the 2020 season the secondary was lighting up receivers.  Heck, JuJu Smith-Schuster is still reeling from that infamous Von Bell hit.

It took Lou at least one season to develop Bell and Bates into the NFL’s best safety tandem.  The same will occur for Jordan Battle and Dax Hill.  Right now Battle and Hill are where Bell and Bates were in 2020.  It takes time and talent to develop safeties.  

Right now Lou is training Battle and Hill to play over the top and guard against huge pass plays.  It’s called keeping the ball in front of you and it’s a fundamental of good safety play.  This means allowing short and medium length passes to be completed.  Basically, allowing a fifteen or twenty yard completion is better than allowing a forty yard bomb over the top.

As their proficiency increases we will see less short and medium length passes completed.  It’s a work in progress.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that at least one of us anticipated a tremendous dropoff in Safety production. (I made a thread about it and was pretty much torched for it)  Even coach Lou himself foreshadowed what was coming when he spoke of the 'dark day' when Bates and Bell would no longer be with the team.

Now that their departure has come to pass and we are developing a new tandem to fill the spots going forward, it is tough to watch their youthful struggles but I remain optimistic as I see every week what they are physically capable of.  I have a feeling that it won't be long before Hill and Battle will be recognized as one of the NFL's premier Safety duos.

(12-06-2023, 07:44 AM)Go Cards Wrote: The DB's are very green as a whole and it will get much better as time goes by imo.

Awuzie not returning to a shut down corner is a big difference as well. Maybe next year he gets that step back.

Awuzie is a UFA next season. I don’t expect him to be back with CTB and Turner here now.

Here was Lou's full quote on the potential of losing Bates and Bell:

"It would be huge," Anarumo said. "You know, leadership too. Vonn and Jesse, they do a lot of things that people don't see. You know, they organize meetings on their own. So yeah, I'd rather not think about that dark day."

They are limited in what they can run on defense because Lou doesn't trust them to play a ton of single high safety. It's really nothing more than that.

Lou gained his HC momentum by his half time adjustments and 3rd down packages. I still have hope that once the secondary gains experience, he will feel confident getting creative again.

I'm more concerned with opening drive TD's they've given up. Have they made an opening drive stop all year?

(12-06-2023, 03:00 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Smh...Battle, he is coming along. Turner got boxed out and completely blocked on the Engram TD. Hill done the same. Hill also didn't finish and gave up a tuddy to Jim Bob from nowhere USA. 

Bell and Bates are vets. They are both strides above everyone in the secondary except for CTB. Personally, I don't think that Hill will be here for much more than a cup of coffee unless he turns it loose and plays up to his potential. I get it, first year starting at FS. He better make leaps and bounds between this year and next if he wants to keep his job.  

Hill doesn't finish and he tackles like *****. 

Bates tackled like shit here for years and he gets a pass, Bates gave up 2 TD's in the AFC Championship against the Chiefs that 
were huge in us losing that game and he gets a pass. Bates played not to get hurt in a contract year and he gets a pass...

But Dax Hill shows some growing pains in his first year starting and he is just terrible.

(12-06-2023, 10:22 AM)Nepa Wrote: Here was Lou's full quote on the potential of losing Bates and Bell:

"It would be huge," Anarumo said. "You know, leadership too. Vonn and Jesse, they do a lot of things that people don't see. You know, they organize meetings on their own. So yeah, I'd rather not think about that dark day."

Winner!!

(12-06-2023, 02:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bates tackled like shit here for years and he gets a pass, Bates gave up 2 TD's in the AFC Championship against the Chiefs that 
were huge in us losing that game and he gets a pass. Bates played not to get hurt in a contract year and he gets a pass...

But Dax Hill shows some growing pains in his first year starting and he is just terrible.

I don't give a rat's ass about Bates. He's a Falcon, and they are very, very happy to have him! What I do care about is poor tackling by the BENGALS FS, and the fact that he gave up a TD to the likes of you or I Monday night. You do realize that Kirk, not Ridley is the Jags best WR? If him and Lawrence don't both go down, they could have rolled up 50 points against this secondary. 

(12-06-2023, 03:17 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I don't give a rat's ass about Bates. He's a Falcon, and they are very, very happy to have him! What I do care about is poor tackling by the BENGALS FS, and the fact that he gave up a TD to the likes of you or I Monday night. You do realize that Kirk, not Ridley is the Jags best WR? If him and Lawrence don't both go down, they could have rolled up 50 points against this secondary. 

And yet you brought up Bates and Bell and held them in such a high regard that Dax Hill or Jordan Battle could never sniff their jocks.

There will be growing pains with Safeties in their rookie year and their first year starting period. Dax should of picked that TD off or 
knocked it towards one of his guys and he knows it. Ridley is still a very talented WR, don't know what you are talking about with 
Kirk and Lawrence going out and that being the reason we won.

The backup QB played good and Lou called a soft Defense late and we still pulled out the win with terrible Dax Hill on this team.

I'm skeptical that Daxs best position is as a true deep free Safety. I think he is more of a true Nickleback/Strong Safety. We should at least entertain the idea if drafting a true FS this upcoming April!

We should understand that Lou's greatest work is when we have a lead or playing a team that is one dimensional.  He has always played zone and he has always played safeties deep.  He doesnt care about yards, as he has said a million times.  We are very good in the redzone.

I too am sick of hearing about Bates and Bell.  No one wanted to pay Bates.  He laid down and pouted for at least one season.  We went to the Super Bowl in 2021, Dax Hill had more interceptions and pass breakups in his first 8 starts than Bates did that entire season.

Bates seemingly led the team in missed tackles every season.  Bates gave up BOTH TDs vs KC in the AFCCG.

Bell was not athletic thus we were not as versatile - Bell always had twice as many snaps in the box than he did at free safety.  He did have 4 interceptions last year, but he only had one the previous 2 years.

Bates and Bell are both good players, smart with excellent intangibles. But we need to stop acting like they were Ed Reed & Troy Polamalu.  Our young guys are learning fast and their speed and athleticism is showing.  Lou is primarily a zone coach and these guys will eventually read WRs tendencies against the zone much better as time goes on.  Same with scramble drill, which has been a serious issue.  Many complain about the TE, which is legitimate, but against our defense the TE finds a hole quickly and sits, they are not running elaborate routes.


What some people will not like hearing is that our biggest weakness in the passing game is Mike Hilton.   He is playing way more snaps at Free Safety because he is a liability when we play man coverage.   I see Dax, Battle and DJ improving and flashing at times.  I agree with someone earlier suggesting we pick up a true free safety, that would allow Dax and Battle to much more versatile.

(12-06-2023, 03:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: And yet you brought up Bates and Bell and held them in such a high regard that Dax Hill or Jordan Battle could never sniff their jocks.

There will be growing pains with Safeties in their rookie year and their first year starting period. Dax should of picked that TD off or 
knocked it towards one of his guys and he knows it. Ridley is still a very talented WR, don't know what you are talking about with 
Kirk and Lawrence going out and that being the reason we won.

The backup QB played good and Lou called a soft Defense late and we still pulled out the win with terrible Dax Hill on this team.

Dax had the opportunity to learn from two very solid vet safeties that were both team leaders. Apparently, he didn't pay much attention because the rookie is running circles around him and it's very obvious that the rookie learns much faster.

I don't dislike Dax and I understand that this is his first year as a starter. He deserves to be viewed with some patience. Ts, we're moving into the back half of a full season and he's not showing much improvement. Battle already looks like a vet and he's started 2-3 games. 

Kirk was about to have a field day if not for the groin injury.