Can we agree today's team average run per play is skewed by a lot of running QB's.

Bengals don't get a lot of running yardage from their QB.

(12-11-2023, 11:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That makes zero sense, though. How is being happy about 4 ypc some magical caring about winning metric and wanting to be over 4 ypc means you don't actually care about winning? That's just some no true scotsman nonsense. Next you'll tell me that Joe Burrow having a 59.8 QB Rating is good because they beat the Rams when he did that, so that's a winning formula and if you're concerned about winning football, then 59.8 QB Rating is good and if you want a higher QB Rating than that then you clearly just don't care about winning.

3.5ypc is only a winning football formula when you hold a team to just 14 points and have a QB with a 122.7 QB Rating, sure... but that's just because holding a team to 14 points and having a QB who does amazing is always a winning formula regardless of rushing. Browning was averaging 11.5 yards per ATTEMPT.

Top 10 Teams in YPC 2023:
Dolphins
Ravens
Cardinals
49ers
Lions
Commanders
Bears
Bills
Chiefs
Broncos
(7 winning teams)

Bottom 5 Teams in YPC 2023:
Raiders
Buccaneers
Jaguars
Texans
Saints
Chargers
Bengals
Giants
Vikings
Patriots
(4 winning teams)

So seriously, how can wanting to have a better YPC be considered not caring about winning? The Patriots are the only team in the bottom 10 with at least a 4.0ypc, and they're at exactly 4.0ypc.

Again, even if 4.0 was some magical number, Mixon has been below it in 3 of the last 4 years and each of the last 2. That's BAD.

- - - - - - -

This all feels suspiciously like a thread awhile back on here where someone was swearing that 60% completion would ALWAYS be considered good and enough to consider a QB to be accurate, because it was considered good 20 years ago.

Just completely refused to accept that you'd be considered inaccurate in today's NFL. The times change, and what was good enough to win games back then, aren't now.

I didn't say one group didn't care about winning or if I worded that way I didn't mean to. I was saying one group is basing they're judgement on 4 ypc based on winning games. The other group is comparing is basing it off of how it compares to the rest of the league. Of course if you average 5 ypc that's better and should put you into position to win games. I think your analogy is a little off 4 ypc does not equal a 59 passes rating.

I know we are talking about rushing. But it is funny that in the under appreciated thread you throw out Browning stats saying how amazing they are 112 passer rating 11 yds per attempt. He has been good and more than efficient. But he threw for 275yds. 126 of said yds went to the running backs on throws at the line of scrimmage. This is why I think things don't always boil down to stats. They're are more things going on within the game.

For me, my gripe with Mixon is he goes down too easy, often times on first contact. He's a great pass catcher, but his RB skills nowadays aren't what - I - envision they should be. Mixon is a big dude, he should be lowering his shoulder and putting the boom on defenders. He should be stiff arming smaller defenders to the ground when he finds himself out on the edges. I'm not seeing much, if any, of this. I'm seeing him often running into the backsides of his linemen for little to no gain.

What I DO like about Joe is what he provides in the passing game as a target. Now, sometimes he doesn't break that screen, but the catches he sometimes has to make (one handers, off balance off target throws, etc) are impressive. Positive plays. His stutter steps and twitches out in space aren't as effective as they used to be but that's just tread off those tires to me, showing his age a bit. Those plays though, more often than not, pick up positive yards.

I just looked at the top 5 RBs in attempts this year, and Mixon is one of (surprise) Only Run CMC has a higher YPC.

Complaining about Mixon is an example of running out of things to complain about

(12-12-2023, 01:51 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I just looked at the top 5 RBs in attempts this year, and Mixon is one of (surprise) Only Run CMC has a higher YPC.

Complaining about Mixon is an example of running out of things to complain about

One of my favorite remarks is something along the lines of "Watching ____ ______ run well has lit a fire under Mixon. He's really trying hard now." 

Mixon tries hard on every carry. I haven't seen him half ass anything in his time here other than bad reads on pass blocking, which he was never really asked to do at Oklahoma.

(12-12-2023, 12:17 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I didn't say one group didn't care about winning or if I worded that way I didn't mean to. I was saying one group is basing they're judgement on 4 ypc based on winning games. The other group is comparing is basing it off of how it compares to the rest of the league. Of course if you average 5 ypc that's better and should put you into position to win games. I think your analogy is a little off 4 ypc does not equal a 59 passes rating.

I know we are talking about rushing. But it is funny that in the under appreciated thread you throw out Browning stats saying how amazing they are 112 passer rating 11 yds per attempt. He has been good and more than efficient. But he threw for 275yds. 126 of said yds went to the running backs on throws at the line of scrimmage. This is why I think things don't always boil down to stats. They're are more things going on within the game.

I'm not sure how else I was possibly supposed to take you saying "people in support of Mixon are concerned about winning football" and the others are "more concerned with how that stacks up with the rest of the league". Those are literal word-for-word quotes from your post.

My analogy wasn't supposed to be that 4 ypc equals at 59 passing rating, it was to point out that you deciding on static arbitrary number is dumb. The best you can do as an individual player is be better than your peers and that will help your team win.

(12-12-2023, 01:51 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I just looked at the top 5 RBs in attempts this year, and Mixon is one of (surprise) Only Run CMC has a higher YPC.

Complaining about Mixon is an example of running out of things to complain about

And 2 of those other 3 RBs are on teams with losing records... 

In fact, none of the other RBs in the top 20 carries have a lower ypc than Mixon. If you expand it even further to the top-30, Mixon has the 6th worst ypc and 4 of the 5 who are worse than him are on losing teams.

(12-11-2023, 10:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Emmitt Smith averaged 4.4 through his age 27 season, which is where Mixon is currently at in his career.

Emmitt Smith was .5 higher than the league average of that time of 3.9. 
Mixon's 4.1 is .2 LOWER than the league average of 4.3 of that time.

Emmitt also ran behind an above average OL for most of his career and had legendary FB Daryl Johnston paving the way for him.
Kinda hard to compare apples to oranges. Mixon is NOT Emmitt. 

if you want to compare him to past players, then pick a year and look at the RB's that finished the year ranked in the 8-15 area. He's very comparable in stats/YPC to most of those guys.

(12-12-2023, 06:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Emmitt also ran behind an above average OL for most of his career and had legendary FB Daryl Johnston paving the way for him.
Kinda hard to compare apples to oranges. Mixon is NOT Emmitt. 

if you want to compare him to past players, then pick a year and look at the RB's that finished the year ranked in the 8-15 area. He's very comparable in stats/YPC to most of those guys.

I'm not the one who brought up Emmitt, that shit came from left field. Lol

I just pointed out that the person who DID bring him up was comparing a guys stats who played into his mid-30s to a guy who hasn't left his NFL prime yet in a position that ages very quickly. Him stinking in his 30s doesn't make him less good in his prime. Also they were ignoring pretty significant era differences in the league.

(12-12-2023, 06:28 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not the one who brought up Emmitt, that shit came from left field. Lol

I just pointed out that the person who DID bring him up was comparing a guys stats who played into his mid-30s to a guy who hasn't left his NFL prime yet in a position that ages very quickly. Him stinking in his 30s doesn't make him less good in his prime. Also they were ignoring pretty significant era differences in the league.

Like a FB leading the way. I think that's been a major issue in the newer shortened shelf life of the RB's in the league these days. Too many unimpeded hits from LB's going full speed. 

Kudos to Mixon for playing hard with maximum effort. Although it was said that Mixon can turn the corner, but he really does not have that speed. Great pass catcher though and an ok runner, better blocker this year as well.

Although not even sure Mixon is the best RB on the team though, and that other guy does have the speed to turn the corner.

Think Mixon and Chase can be a good 1-2 punch for the rest of the season, but personally am ready to move on in off season. Not sure if Bengals will or not though.

Why is Mixon under appreciated? Because too many times he has had strings of insignificant games across his career, that's why.

(12-12-2023, 09:15 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why is Mixon under appreciated?  Because too many times he has had strings of insignificant games across his career, that's why.

It's almost as if having a shit o-line for his entire career means nothing. This is by far and away the best O-line he's ever ran behind as a pro and they're below average at best.

(12-12-2023, 09:19 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: It's almost as if having a shit o-line for his entire career means nothing. This is by far and away the best O-line he's ever ran behind as a pro and they're below average at best.

There's an old saying in the carpentry world that goes something like 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools for a bad product'.  I think the same can be applied to skill players in team sports.

In the Joe Burrow era fans have praised him as the QB, Boyd/Higgins/Chase as the WR trio, McPherson and his strong leg, and some defensive players.

The OL and run game have been the perceived problems with the team. Thus, Mixon is not appreciated. I also imagine his off field choices make it hard for some people to actively root for him.

(12-12-2023, 02:51 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not sure how else I was possibly supposed to take you saying "people in support of Mixon are concerned about winning football" and the others are "more concerned with how that stacks up with the rest of the league". Those are literal word-for-word quotes from your post.

My analogy wasn't supposed to be that 4 ypc equals at 59 passing rating, it was to point out that you deciding on static arbitrary number is dumb. The best you can do as an individual player is be better than your peers and that will help your team win.

Again didn't mean for it to come off that way but I do get a little more heated than I should talking about Bengals players at times. 
This will probably be my final point on Mixon and the 4 ypc. I'm not much of a stat guy and honestly my view of 4 ypc comes from fantasy football. Which can seem silly but has real world implications. If you are looking for a back that 4 ypc is what you want to see. If it's better great but that is the mark. A running back that is used and has 4ypc or better can get you points that directly relate to helping his team be successful. The reason I stick with Mixon even when at times he doesn't look good is because we've seen it before. I know I've made the point 100 times already. But 2019 he went from probably the worst RB 1st half of the season( he had a 10 carry 2 yd game) to literally the 2nd back in the league in the 2nd half. What changed? It wasn't personnel was it execution that seems to be quite a bit. So it seems to be scheme. So say what you want now about Mixon getting long in the tooth losing a step and perhaps your right. But there shouldn't be any arguing looking back that we wasted talent and certainly hurt his career ypc on a side note. So when he struggles there is always that question to me of what is the cause of the struggles. Then add to it that Mixon has always had great energy and never once do I remember him blaming anyone for his lack of production at times. Which doesn't raise you up as a runningback but when it comes to giving you the benefit of the doubt or not it makes me want to lean your way.

(12-12-2023, 09:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: There's an old saying in the carpentry world that goes something like 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools for a bad product'.  I think the same can be applied to skill players in team sports.

LOL, OK.

So are you saying that o-line quality has little to do with a RBs YPC? This is a new one for me. If you have any non-carpentry related info to back this up, I'm open to seeing it.

Many have stated Mixon has his good points. He's excellent in ball security. He's a very good pass catcher. However:

He has basically sucked at running the ball a great many times. Dances in the backfield or at LOS trying to do his L. Bell impression. And he doesn't have the quickness/moves and the breakaway speed to pull that off. He's a downhill one cut RB. And there's been many games where he gets little to no yards after contact. TLL has posted those stats. He gets little yardage on those outside runs, he doesn't have that sideline to sideline kinda speed vs. most D's. He can't beat them to the corner.

When he does embrace his running style (like he has these past couple games) he's done much better. And I don't care what anybody says the fact that C. Brown is breathing down his neck has made him step up his aggression.

Does the bad Oline impact his past success? I'm sure it does to a degree, how big a degree?? But like the Leonard Leaps posts on his stats say, he was in the top 10 or even better of yards before contact. And the bottom of the barrel in yards after contact.......so

In the end Mixon is just not a top level RB. He's more of a spell back type. No matter how you crack it up.

(12-12-2023, 12:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: When he does embrace his running style (like he has these past couple games) he's done much better. And I don't care what anybody says the fact that C. Brown is breathing down his neck has made him step up his aggression.

I'll buy into this theory if anybody can show me plays where Mixon wasn't running hard a few weeks ago. 

Don't show me stats . . . show me video. If you don't have video, give me the plays. I have every snap of Joe Mixon's NFL career available to me on NFL plus.

(12-12-2023, 12:04 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: LOL, OK.

So are you saying that o-line quality has little to do with a RBs YPC? This is a new one for me. If you have any non-carpentry related info to back this up, I'm open to seeing it.

Barry Sanders played on some very craptacular Lions teams, he still managed to shine.  I'm just saying that you 'excusing' Mixon's career subpar performance numbers because of his teammates is pretty weak sauce.