(03-26-2024, 10:27 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: In another 3 years Volson will be 28 years old.  Lets hope it doesnt take 5 years for Volson to get Cappa's level as Cappa is only slightly above average as it is.  

Let's hope Cappa just gets back to his playing self before he got Pollack as his OL coach even if he is our best OL right now.

But yeah, would be great if Volson got up to Cappa's play level this year. I picked Volson to make the big jump last year and he 
severely let me down. Just had flashes of being good in the run game, but he was pretty bad in pass protection and always being
in the Shotgun sure didn't help him or any of the OL.

Remember also Burrow's two injuries hung the line out to dry - the calf meant he was a statue in the pocket and when he went out Browning while overall decent did hold the ball way too long. Add in the OL unfriendly system (which before Burrow went out they were starting to move away from) and really bad pass blocking from the backs and you get line numbers that are lower end of average. Assuming T Brown stabilizes RT while whoever our new Tackle prospect is gets up to speed we also fixed the RB pass protection issue (and got a back whose running style fits our offense better) so we should be more effective up front ESPECIALLY if we continue the evolution of the offense into a system that does not allow defenses to tee off on linemen on islands.

How long before we look for a Long Term Younger Center...

How much longer do we feel Karras can play

(03-26-2024, 10:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Let's hope Cappa just gets back to his playing self before he got Pollack as his OL coach even if he is our best OL right now.

But yeah, would be great if Volson got up to Cappa's play level this year. I picked Volson to make the big jump last year and he 
severely let me down. Just had flashes of being good in the run game, but he was pretty bad in pass protection and always being
in the Shotgun sure didn't help him or any of the OL.

Cappa's PFF grades, sacks, and total pressures allowed each year he was full-time starter:
2019 (TB) - 62.7 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 31 total pressures allowed
2020 (TB) - 69.0 grade, 0 sacks allowed, 27 total pressures allowed
2021 (TB) - 73.4 grade, 5 sacks allowed, 32 total pressures allowed
2022 (CIN) - 67.6 grade, 3 sacks allowed, 20 total pressures allowed
2023 (CIN) - 64.9 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 35 total pressures allowed

He's basically the same guy he was in TB still.
He'll allow ~4 sacks and ~30 total pressures, which is solid but not elite.

Karras is a similar trend between his time in NE and in CIN.

Both guys are solid and probably the least worrisome of the group.
I'll give OBJ a slight pass since it was his first year in CIN's offense last year, but he allowed so many pressures (59).
I think he'll get that number down by ~20 this year (or at least hope so).

(03-27-2024, 10:54 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Cappa's PFF grades, sacks, and total pressures allowed each year he was full-time starter:
2019 (TB) - 62.7 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 31 total pressures allowed
2020 (TB) - 69.0 grade, 0 sacks allowed, 27 total pressures allowed
2021 (TB) - 73.4 grade, 5 sacks allowed, 32 total pressures allowed
2022 (CIN) - 67.6 grade, 3 sacks allowed, 20 total pressures allowed
2023 (CIN) - 64.9 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 35 total pressures allowed

He's basically the same guy he was in TB still.
He'll allow ~4 sacks and ~30 total pressures, which is solid but not elite.

Karras is a similar trend between his time in NE and in CIN.

Both guys are solid and probably the least worrisome of the group.
I'll give OBJ a slight pass since it was his first year in CIN's offense last year, but he allowed so many pressures (59).
I think he'll get that number down by ~20 this year (or at least hope so).

I wouldn't get your hopes up on OBJr. He has always allowed a ton of pressures. In 2022, he allowed 58 pressures. This is who he is, we just wanted to believe he was actually an elite/pro-bowl level tackle when we signed him. 

I watched it happen when the Ravens traded him (Ravens fans telling Chiefs fans that he actually isn't very good) and I watched Chiefs fans tell us he wasn't very good. Both the Chiefs fans (at the time) and us last offseason claimed it was just fans "hating", but I think the fact of the matter is, those fan bases watched him each game and saw who he was as a player. 

We still need to draft JC Lathm or Mimms for our #18, and develop them as Brown is only on a 1-yr contract. Brown will also probably miss four games due to whatever reason.

(03-27-2024, 11:27 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I wouldn't get your hopes up on OBJr. He has always allowed a ton of pressures. In 2022, he allowed 58 pressures. This is who he is, we just wanted to believe he was actually an elite/pro-bowl level tackle when we signed him. 

I watched it happen when the Ravens traded him (Ravens fans telling Chiefs fans that he actually isn't very good) and I watched Chiefs fans tell us he wasn't very good. Both the Chiefs fans (at the time) and us last offseason claimed it was just fans "hating", but I think the fact of the matter is, those fan bases watched him each game and saw who he was as a player. 

the success of his teams also ended up inflating his perceived abilities. Plus, the Ravens are very run heavy, and Mahomes just showed he can win with mediocre tackles. 

(03-27-2024, 11:27 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I wouldn't get your hopes up on OBJr. He has always allowed a ton of pressures. In 2022, he allowed 58 pressures. This is who he is, we just wanted to believe he was actually an elite/pro-bowl level tackle when we signed him. 

I watched it happen when the Ravens traded him (Ravens fans telling Chiefs fans that he actually isn't very good) and I watched Chiefs fans tell us he wasn't very good. Both the Chiefs fans (at the time) and us last offseason claimed it was just fans "hating", but I think the fact of the matter is, those fan bases watched him each game and saw who he was as a player. 

That's including postseason.
Just 47 in regular season, which is 12 less than 2023 regular season.

(03-27-2024, 11:35 AM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: We still need to draft JC Lathm or Mimms for our #18, and develop them as Brown is only on a 1-yr contract.  Brown will also probably miss four games due to whatever reason.

Latham not working out at his Pro Day really has made some people turn away from him (at least fans).
Mims worries me with lack of playing time at the position up to this point.

If I'm going any RT, Fuaga is probably top of my list.
Latham, then Guyton, then Mims.
I think Mims has the higher ceiling over Guyton but I think there's more risk.

(03-27-2024, 11:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Latham not working out at his Pro Day really has made some people turn away from him (at least fans).
Mims worries me with lack of playing time at the position up to this point.

If I'm going any RT, Fuaga is probably top of my list.
Latham, then Guyton, then Mims.
I think Mims has the higher ceiling over Guyton but I think there's more risk.

Mine as well

And we need depth in a bad way on Oline!! We have Carman and Hill with NFL experience and that's pretty much it. Who knows if Trent Brown can make it an entire season?? And if anybody else misses games we're down to the bottom of the barrel.

Oline is one of our top priorities in my book.

(03-27-2024, 11:51 AM)ochocincos Wrote: That's including postseason.
Just 47 in regular season, which is 12 less than 2023 regular season.

I'll take your word that that included the post-season, but the takeaway remains. 47 pressures allowed is below average. So he has had back to back years of below average and worst in the league. This is who he is, a below average pass protecting LT.

(03-27-2024, 12:41 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I'll take your word that that included the post-season, but the takeaway remains. 47 pressures allowed is below average. So he has had back to back years of below average and worst in the league. This is who he is, a below average pass protecting LT.

For sure, 40+ is not good.
On the flip side, even with nearly 60 total pressures allowed in 2022 including postseason, only 4 of those were sacks.
So he's allowing pressure but not many sacks.
2023 with CIN was worse than 2022 with KC.

I think the lack of signing a vet to push him / back him up in FA points to them drafting some IOL this year. We have Cody Ford, Jackson Charmin, Trey Hill, and D'ante Smith as the current crop of back up options. Here's to hoping they beef up the trenches this draft with a new infusion of youth!

(03-27-2024, 10:54 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Cappa's PFF grades, sacks, and total pressures allowed each year he was full-time starter:
2019 (TB) - 62.7 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 31 total pressures allowed
2020 (TB) - 69.0 grade, 0 sacks allowed, 27 total pressures allowed
2021 (TB) - 73.4 grade, 5 sacks allowed, 32 total pressures allowed
2022 (CIN) - 67.6 grade, 3 sacks allowed, 20 total pressures allowed
2023 (CIN) - 64.9 grade, 4 sacks allowed, 35 total pressures allowed

He's basically the same guy he was in TB still.
He'll allow ~4 sacks and ~30 total pressures, which is solid but not elite.

Karras is a similar trend between his time in NE and in CIN.

Both guys are solid and probably the least worrisome of the group.
I'll give OBJ a slight pass since it was his first year in CIN's offense last year, but he allowed so many pressures (59).
I think he'll get that number down by ~20 this year (or at least hope so).

Thanks for the numbers Ochocincos. Bit surprised, in a good way with Cappa and Karras. I do like these guys a lot. I actually am hoping
to keep them for a few more years once their contracts are up. I know Karras is getting up there, but he is still good and it has been forever
since we found a decent Center, been since a healthy Kyle Cook and before that Richie Braham.

Still not against drafting a C/G somewhat early in this Draft for the future.

(03-27-2024, 11:51 AM)ochocincos Wrote: That's including postseason.
Just 47 in regular season, which is 12 less than 2023 regular season.

That is better, but yes, Orlando allows a ton of pressures but not a lot of Sacks. Will have to take that for what it is worth.

(03-27-2024, 11:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Latham not working out at his Pro Day really has made some people turn away from him (at least fans).
Mims worries me with lack of playing time at the position up to this point.

If I'm going any RT, Fuaga is probably top of my list.
Latham, then Guyton, then Mims.
I think Mims has the higher ceiling over Guyton but I think there's more risk.

Same, and even Fuaga might be a better Guard. No sure things in the Draft.

(03-27-2024, 01:52 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I think the lack of signing a vet to push him / back him up in FA points to them drafting some IOL this year. We have Cody Ford, Jackson Charmin, Trey Hill, and D'ante Smith as the current crop of back up options. Here's to hoping they beef up the trenches this draft with a new infusion of youth!

i imagine we will go shopping during the Post draft cuts.

(03-27-2024, 11:27 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I wouldn't get your hopes up on OBJr. He has always allowed a ton of pressures. In 2022, he allowed 58 pressures. This is who he is, we just wanted to believe he was actually an elite/pro-bowl level tackle when we signed him. 

I watched it happen when the Ravens traded him (Ravens fans telling Chiefs fans that he actually isn't very good) and I watched Chiefs fans tell us he wasn't very good. Both the Chiefs fans (at the time) and us last offseason claimed it was just fans "hating", but I think the fact of the matter is, those fan bases watched him each game and saw who he was as a player. 

The thing about OBJr is that he usually gets allows the same type of pressure, speed atound the edge. It still counts as a pressure, but the QB can deal with it easily if the middle allows a step up. 

He graded out at 66.1 via PFF. He allowed 7 sacks. Tied for 13th amongst tackles. Had a knock midseason that hurt his play, and Burrow's lack of mobility to start did not help. 

The only postseason sack he has ever allowed was vs Hendrickson.  

Brown: 66.1, 7 sacks (T13th) 
Williams: 58.5, 8 sacks (T8th) 
Cappa: 64.9, 4 sacks (T20th) 
Karras: 67.4, 6 sacks (T2nd) 
Volson: 58.3, 5 sacks (T9th). 

Now, sacks are not everything. And PFF gets things wrong sometimes. 

But Brown was certainly better than Williams and our 2nd best lineman in terms of overall grade and sacks allowed at position. 

He had a poor year by his standards ladt year, but I expect he'll be better with a more healthy Burrow. Even at his peak, he is borderline Pro Bowl not All-Pro level. 

(03-27-2024, 10:32 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: How long before we look for a Long Term Younger Center...  

How much longer do we feel Karras can play

There's only one guy on the OL that's under contract after next year. OBJ. Karras is gone after this year. 

The Bengals REALLY need to nail a couple of OL draft picks this year because they are going to have to flip the room completely. It's a perfect time to draft the replacements and let them learn/get backup reps while they wait in the wings. 

Need a future RT, RG, center, and possible LG. It'd be nice to not have to rely on FA for once to fill needs. 

(03-27-2024, 02:28 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: There's only one guy on the OL that's under contract after next year. OBJ. Karras is gone after this year. 

The Bengals REALLY need to nail a couple of OL draft picks this year because they are going to have to flip the room completely. It's a perfect time to draft the replacements and let them learn/get backup reps while they wait in the wings. 

Need a future RT, RG, center, and possible LG. It'd be nice to not have to rely on FA for once to fill needs. 

They also need to nail a WR and maybe TE, along with DT. CB is still up in the air, and even LB could be upgraded (at their best Wilson and Pratt may be slightly above average). I’m not saying there is a crisis on this team bc we have burrow, but we really don’t have any other position group outside of QB (arguable safety) where we can say “nah, we good”.

Honestly, let’s just take position out of your statement.

The Bengals REALLY need to nail a couple of draft picks this year because…… It'd be nice to not have to rely on FA for once to fill needs. 

(03-27-2024, 12:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: For sure, 40+ is not good.
On the flip side, even with nearly 60 total pressures allowed in 2022 including postseason, only 4 of those were sacks.
So he's allowing pressure but not many sacks.
2023 with CIN was worse than 2022 with KC.

He has had the benefit of playing tackle for Mahomes and Lamar, who are able to compensate for pressures. And Burrow is pretty good at that aspect too, but just because a pressure doesn't turn into a sack and the QB is able to step up, make him miss, get rid of it quickly, doesn't mean it's not a pretty negative play. Giving up a pressure can be the difference in the .2 seconds needed for a WR to come open on 3rd down. Let alone those longer developing plays that pressure often ruins, leading to a quick check down. 

(03-27-2024, 05:31 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: He has had the benefit of playing tackle for Mahomes and Lamar, who are able to compensate for pressures. And Burrow is pretty good at that aspect too, but just because a pressure doesn't turn into a sack and the QB is able to step up, make him miss, get rid of it quickly, doesn't mean it's not a pretty negative play. Giving up a pressure can be the difference in the .2 seconds needed for a WR to come open on 3rd down. Let alone those longer developing plays that pressure often ruins, leading to a quick check down. 

I know that a pressure is not a good thing...

I'm just saying that he hasn't allowed many sacks.
That doesn't mean I'm saying allowing pressures is ok, just that at least there haven't been 10+ sacks to go along with those pressures.
It's still bad, just not as bad as it could be.