Consistently hitting the wrong holes.


I think Chase Brown is a 3rd down back 100%

He was picking a hole quick and exploding through it. Usually this is good but this is exactly what Mixon did


The only difference is Brown will likely get more yards in the open field

I’m starting to see why we view Zac Moss as the starter.

I’m seeing something different. I see a couple of zone runs which don’t have defined gaps to attack. On the gap runs, I see Brown’s primary gaps clogged and him trying to cut back and improvise. He’s not being given much to work with on these plays.

(08-11-2024, 06:25 PM)Housh Wrote: Consistently hitting the wrong holes.


I think Chase Brown is a 3rd down back 100%

He was picking a hole quick and exploding through it. Usually this is good but this is exactly what Mixon did


The only difference is Brown will likely get more yards in the open field

I’m starting to see why we view Zac Moss as the starter.

I saw same watching the game but to his defense he is young in nfl experience so let's see how he does next 2 games

I think it is going to take a little time for the O-line and Chase Brown to get on the same page. Like KillerGoose said, he didn't
have a lot to work with on those plays. Also Todd Bowles and the Bucs Defense is pretty notorious for being one of the best run
stopping Defenses in the NFL. I like that our 1's pass blocked well, but I always thought run blocking was going to take time.

Would be nice to see one play where the OL opens a big hole and Chase Brown hits it before I judge the dude. It isn't anything
like Mixon where he would miss the hole and break out to the edge all the time.

(08-11-2024, 06:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I’m seeing something different. I see a couple of zone runs which don’t have defined gaps to attack. On the gap runs, I see Brown’s primary gaps clogged and him trying to cut back and improvise. He’s not being given much to work with on these plays.

This^

So many don't understand the running game.  People complained about Mixon "dancing" behind the line when he was running stretch zone plays vs praising Perine for "hitting the hole" fast on power gap runs.  Totally different play calls with totally different blocking schemes.

I thought we were getting away from the zone runs? Did I not read that somewhere?

(08-12-2024, 10:01 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I thought we were getting away from the zone runs? Did I not read that somewhere?

No team has a binary run offense where they completely run one or the other. They will have a primary scheme they run and still mix it up. Cincinnati has been a gap team for a couple years now but they still have zone runs. Pollacks preferred scheme is wide zone but Cincinnati hasn't had the personnel to run it well enough. 

(08-12-2024, 10:01 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I thought we were getting away from the zone runs? Did I not read that somewhere?

(08-12-2024, 10:08 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: No team has a binary run offense where they completely run one or the other. They will have a primary scheme they run and still mix it up. Cincinnati has been a gap team for a couple years now but they still have zone runs. Pollacks preferred scheme is wide zone but Cincinnati hasn't had the personnel to run it well enough. 

This^ 100%.

They have been heavy Duo/traps gap concepts with inside zone mixed in. Inside zone weak is a very power oriented zone run too. There's a running twitter joke with people posting clips of Inside Zone or Duo and a poll it's usually eunds up 50/50 lol. 

(08-11-2024, 06:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I’m seeing something different. I see a couple of zone runs which don’t have defined gaps to attack. On the gap runs, I see Brown’s primary gaps clogged and him trying to cut back and improvise. He’s not being given much to work with on these plays.

Eh, I disagree.

On Brown's first run, Volson is supposed to combo block the DT with Brown, then take the LB in the hole.  Volson actually carries this assignment out.  But Brown sees the backer flash in the hole he's supposed to hit and panics and cuts it back to the right which has a mostly unblocked LB on a run blitz due to Mims blocking down then making a hell of a play to get his mits on.  Being fair, it was a short yardage play against 9 in the box, but it's a perfect example of a guy not trusting his blocks and allowing for the play to develop.

Second carry, he takes it straight off of LT for a nice gain.  Zero complaints, here.

Third carry, he seems to hesitate, unsure of whether to hit the hole or cut it back to the proverbial "sea of green" and stumbles when he makes his cut, allowing the backer to get enough of him while being blocked to get him on the ground.  Decent gain, but could have been a lot more with a more decisive cut, especially since this was one of those "no wrong answer" situations.

Fourth carry, a GAPING hole opens up on the interior when the LB overruns the play following the motion man that he never sees and he dances for a second in the backfield before trying to bounce it to the outside.  Just horrid vision and feel for the position.

Fifth carry is maddening.  There's a massive hole right in the center of the OL, but Cappa is tasked with doubling, then taking the LB(similar assignment to Volson on the first carry) and Brown panics and bounces outside.  Cappa completes his assignment and a nice gain is turned to shit by atrocious RB play.  The IOL proverbially "blew them off the LoS" on this play.  

I'm sorry, but there's a ton of feel and vision that goes with being a quality NFL RB and Brown exhibits none of it.  If he's going to be out primary back this year, we are in deep shit.  If I played on the Bengals' OL, I'd be cussing Brown like a dog.  

https://x.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1822733853498146996/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry

I did see Brown miss the hole a couple of times, will need to look at Goodberry's video.

(08-12-2024, 12:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: Eh, I disagree.

On Brown's first run, Volson is supposed to combo block the DT with Brown, then take the LB in the hole.  Volson actually carries this assignment out.  But Brown sees the backer flash in the hole he's supposed to hit and panics and cuts it back to the right which has a mostly unblocked LB on a run blitz due to Mims blocking down then making a hell of a play to get his mits on.  Being fair, it was a short yardage play against 9 in the box, but it's a perfect example of a guy not trusting his blocks and allowing for the play to develop.

Second carry, he takes it straight off of LT for a nice gain.  Zero complaints, here.

Third carry, he seems to hesitate, unsure of whether to hit the hole or cut it back to the proverbial "sea of green" and stumbles when he makes his cut, allowing the backer to get enough of him while being blocked to get him on the ground.  Decent gain, but could have been a lot more with a more decisive cut, especially since this was one of those "no wrong answer" situations.

Fourth carry, a GAPING hole opens up on the interior when the LB overruns the play following the motion man that he never sees and he dances for a second in the backfield before trying to bounce it to the outside.  Just horrid vision and feel for the position.

Fifth carry is maddening.  There's a massive hole right in the center of the OL, but Cappa is tasked with doubling, then taking the LB(similar assignment to Volson on the first carry) and Brown panics and bounces outside.  Cappa completes his assignment and a nice gain is turned to shit by atrocious RB play.  The IOL proverbially "blew them off the LoS" on this play.  

I'm sorry, but there's a ton of feel and vision that goes with being a quality NFL RB and Brown exhibits none of it.  If he's going to be out primary back this year, we are in deep shit.  If I played on the Bengals' OL, I'd be cussing Brown like a dog.  

https://x.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1822733853498146996/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry

Thanks for the breakdown Whatever. Will watch the vid in a little bit. At least Chase made one nice gain, we will see if he improves
with his vision. I saw him have many good runs at Illinois where he relied on his vision so it is not out of the question that he was 
just a little ancy in his first Preseason game starting and Zack Moss out with illness.

Whether we run inside zone, gap, whatever the scheme, the point is you need to not hesitate and hit the hole going North.

(08-11-2024, 06:25 PM)Housh Wrote: Consistently hitting the wrong holes.


I think Chase Brown is a 3rd down back 100%

He was picking a hole quick and exploding through it. Usually this is good but this is exactly what Mixon did


The only difference is Brown will likely get more yards in the open field

I’m starting to see why we view Zac Moss as the starter.

At what point do we stop blaming the running backs and look at the offense line and Pollack?  Everyone blamed Mixon.  Brown is now the issue.  If Moss struggles in Cincinnati is he the next guy the fans blame or do we look at Pollack and the offensive line and say they need to do a better job?

(08-12-2024, 02:08 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: At what point do we stop blaming the running backs and look at the offense line and Pollack?  Everyone blamed Mixon.  Brown is now the issue.  If Moss struggles in Cincinnati is he the next guy the fans blame or do we look at Pollack and the offensive line and say they need to do a better job?

Well, they have looked at the offensive line.  They replaced Turner and invested a ton of FA dollars and draft picks into the position group.  

Many of the issues with Mixon are not related to the OL.  His pass blocking has zero to do with the OL.  His inability to break tackles and lack of big play ability aren't OL issues.  And the biggest issue, his cap number, wasn't an OL issue.  You can argue his inability to get outside was partially an OL issue because of inability to make reach blocks, but that's about it.

Beyond that, the tape doesn't lie.  The OL actually blocked well for Brown.  He couldn't even get the yards the OL gave him, much less create anything himself.  He blatantly misread his blocking on 3 of his 5 runs and hesitated on another.  That simply isn't NFL starter quality, or even a guy that should be getting heavy carries in a time share.  

(08-12-2024, 06:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: Well, they have looked at the offensive line.  They replaced Turner and invested a ton of FA dollars and draft picks into the position group.  

Many of the issues with Mixon are not related to the OL.  His pass blocking has zero to do with the OL.  His inability to break tackles and lack of big play ability aren't OL issues.  And the biggest issue, his cap number, wasn't an OL issue.  You can argue his inability to get outside was partially an OL issue because of inability to make reach blocks, but that's about it.

Beyond that, the tape doesn't lie.  The OL actually blocked well for Brown.  He couldn't even get the yards the OL gave him, much less create anything himself.  He blatantly misread his blocking on 3 of his 5 runs and hesitated on another.  That simply isn't NFL starter quality, or even a guy that should be getting heavy carries in a time share.  

I tried clicking on your link but it said the page doesn't exist so I will watch Chase Brown on Gamepass here in a little bit and try and see
what you are saying here. I am not ready to give up on him just because of 3 poor runs either, he has had good vision in the past. He can
improve in these areas especially after watching film and the OL giving him crap for it.

You know what would make it easier for me to watch the referenced video...

(08-12-2024, 12:49 PM)Whatever Wrote: Eh, I disagree.

On Brown's first run, Volson is supposed to combo block the DT with Brown, then take the LB in the hole.  Volson actually carries this assignment out.  But Brown sees the backer flash in the hole he's supposed to hit and panics and cuts it back to the right which has a mostly unblocked LB on a run blitz due to Mims blocking down then making a hell of a play to get his mits on.  Being fair, it was a short yardage play against 9 in the box, but it's a perfect example of a guy not trusting his blocks and allowing for the play to develop.

Second carry, he takes it straight off of LT for a nice gain.  Zero complaints, here.

Third carry, he seems to hesitate, unsure of whether to hit the hole or cut it back to the proverbial "sea of green" and stumbles when he makes his cut, allowing the backer to get enough of him while being blocked to get him on the ground.  Decent gain, but could have been a lot more with a more decisive cut, especially since this was one of those "no wrong answer" situations.

Fourth carry, a GAPING hole opens up on the interior when the LB overruns the play following the motion man that he never sees and he dances for a second in the backfield before trying to bounce it to the outside.  Just horrid vision and feel for the position.

Fifth carry is maddening.  There's a massive hole right in the center of the OL, but Cappa is tasked with doubling, then taking the LB(similar assignment to Volson on the first carry) and Brown panics and bounces outside.  Cappa completes his assignment and a nice gain is turned to shit by atrocious RB play.  The IOL proverbially "blew them off the LoS" on this play.  

I'm sorry, but there's a ton of feel and vision that goes with being a quality NFL RB and Brown exhibits none of it.  If he's going to be out primary back this year, we are in deep shit.  If I played on the Bengals' OL, I'd be cussing Brown like a dog.  

https://x.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1822733853498146996/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweet=1822733853498146996&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry&currentTweetUser=JoeGoodberry

The first run is Duo. Chase does a decent job of pressing one A gap drawing the Mike and trying to jump cut into the other. Joe Mixon was really good at this.

Second was a counter I wish Chase pressed it a little more inside but that's nitpicky Sample has to hold that block better.

Third Carry he does hesitate before hitting the moving A gap in the zone run.

Fourth was a pin and pull outside he was supposed to follow the TE through the hole between the tackle and the pulling LG but this is the "Volson may have tipped the defense" pull play. You can see the Mike sit right behind rhe edge that takes on Volson so the TE can't get a clean block and creates a mess right where the play is supposed to go lol.

Fifth run is another Duo Brown definitely gets way too impatient and tries to bounce it and there is no bounce lanes in duo.

(08-12-2024, 06:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I tried clicking on your link but it said the page doesn't exist so I will watch Chase Brown on Gamepass here in a little bit and try and see
what you are saying here. I am not ready to give up on him just because of 3 poor runs either, he has had good vision in the past. He can
improve in these areas especially after watching film and the OL giving him crap for it.

(08-12-2024, 07:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You know what would make it easier for me to watch the referenced video...

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2024/8/12/24218314/bengals-news-amarius-mims-nfl-debut

Bottom of the page.

I'm quite sure practice today for Chase Brown emphasized being decisive in the backfield, identifying the hole and hitting it fast.

(08-12-2024, 06:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I tried clicking on your link but it said the page doesn't exist so I will watch Chase Brown on Gamepass here in a little bit and try and see
what you are saying here. I am not ready to give up on him just because of 3 poor runs either, he has had good vision in the past. He can
improve in these areas especially after watching film and the OL giving him crap for it.

(08-12-2024, 07:14 PM)Synric Wrote: The first run is Duo. Chase does a decent job of pressing one A gap drawing the Mike and trying to jump cut into the other. Joe Mixon was really good at this.

Second was a counter I wish Chase pressed it a little more inside but that's nitpicky Sample has to hold that block better.

Third Carry he does hesitate before hitting the moving A gap in the zone run.

Fourth was a pin and pull outside he was supposed to follow the TE through the hole between the tackle and the pulling LG but this is the "Volson may have tipped the defense" pull play. You can see the Mike sit right behind rhe edge that takes on Volson so the TE can't get a clean block and creates a mess right where the play is supposed to go lol.

Fifth run is another Duo Brown definitely gets way too impatient and tries to bounce it and there is no bounce lanes in duo.

So, a couple issues with the first play.  I can buy giving him the benefit of the doubt regarding drawing the Mike so he jumps cut if he doesn't do the same thing on the same play call later in the drive.  Also, that doesn't make much sense situationally.  It's 3rd and 1 against 9 in the box.   That's a situation where you want to hit the LoS with forward momentum to try and get the first, not jump cut and kill your momentum and risk getting hit in the backfield by early penetration.  He also doesn't make an attempt to shift the ball from his left to his right, which he would logically do if that was his plan, although he may have forgone that because he was holding it in both hands.  And lastly, he doesn't really jump cut.  

The designed hole does get clogged on the fourth carry, but there's a wide open cut back lane that he just misses and instead tries to bounce it.  I mean, 9 out of 10 NFL quality RB's see that and cut and go.  

Four and Five are especially bad, simply because he's turning plays that should at least be positive plays that keep the offense on schedule into negative plays that force us into 2nd and 3rd and long.  For example, #4 put us in Third and 12 when if he makes that cut, it's probably 1st and Goal or 3rd and short.  I mean, the reason you're running the ball is to keep out of obvious passing downs.  

Unfortunately, this is the same stuff I saw out of him last year.  He makes an occasional splash play and then leaves a ton of yardage on the field with terrible vision and decision making.  Personally, we need to look long and hard at adding another back via trade or the waiver wire, because it isn't like Williams or Evans are worth anything to the offense.

This is why Zach Moss being sick was unfortunate. It would have been nice to see a decisive runner back there who hits the hole.