Blame the coaches, blame the defense, blame whoever.

The real issue? The talent on the roster. It's not good enough, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

The 2021 Super Bowl team was built on free agency - Reader, Chido, Hendrickson, Hilton, Reiff, Vonn Bell. The Bengals have added or replaced some of that talent bringing in Cappa, Karras, Orlando Brown Jr, Geno Stone, Rankins who are on their current roster.

My question is this - where are the draft picks? Other than the Burrow and Chase LAY UPS, who have we drafted since 2019 that you'd consider a good positional NFL player? Higgins, CTB, Logan Wilson. That's it.

The Bengals have WHIFFED in the draft over the past 5 years.

When is Duke Tobin going to be held accountable? Who's responsible for the drafting of guys, especially on the defensive side of the ball? Does Lou have a say? Because he sure seemed giddy every time he was at the podium after we drafted 3 straight defensive players in the first 3 rounds last year.

They need more out of the draft. We can't continue whiffing on first round picks like Dax Hill and second round picks like Jackson Carman. We can't have drafts like 2021 where literally no one is contributing other than Chase. Everyone LOVED this years class, but who is contributing on the defensive side of the ball? It's been pathetic.

Yeah. Bingo.

There isn't much talent on defense.

And to add to it, many of the free agents brought in either don't fit needs, or aren't talented.

Stone looks like Nick Scott part 2. Rankins can rush the passer, but not really a run stuffer and is hurt. BJ Hill is a good 3rd tackle. Maybe 2nd next to a great one.

Chide is missed in the secondary. So is Bates.

But, you lose Reader and then all the sudden your LB's look weak because blockers are on them.

(09-24-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Blame the coaches, blame the defense, blame whoever.

The real issue? The talent on the roster. It's not good enough, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

The 2021 Super Bowl team was built on free agency - Reader, Chido, Hendrickson, Hilton, Reiff, Vonn Bell. The Bengals have added or replaced some of that talent bringing in Cappa, Karras, Orlando Brown Jr, Geno Stone, Rankins who are on their current roster.

My question is this - where are the draft picks? Other than the Burrow and Chase LAY UPS, who have we drafted since 2019 that you'd consider a good NFL player? Higgins, CTB, Logan Wilson. That's it.

The Bengals have WHIFFED in the draft over the past 5 years.

When is Duke Tobin going to be held accountable? Who's responsible for the drafting of guys, especially on the defensive side of the ball? Does Lou have a say? Because he sure seemed giddy every time he was at the podium after we drafted 3 straight defensive players in the first 3 rounds last year.

They need more out of the draft. We can't continue whiffing on first round picks like Dax Hill and second round picks like Jackson Carman. We can't have drafts like 2021 where literally no one is contributing other than Chase. Everyone LOVED this years class, but who is contributing on the defensive side of the ball? It's been pathetic.

I used to say this alot,  but essentially the same management team has been running the Bengals since the 90's. They didn't all the sudden get amazing at drafting.

They lucked into Burrow and Chase. (Can I call Burrow luck? The narrative was that Taylor would come in with a modern approach and revamp the team and they were so bad that they picked 1st.)

One last comment too is that coaching/training develop players. Part of this could be development.

Nothing new.

Outside the stretch of 2009-2013, this is an organization that is overall poor at drafting

The bottom line is that with the salary structures in the NFL, you HAVE to draft well each year. And we don't. Now that we pay Burrow highly and will pay Chase highly, it makes that even more of a premium.

(09-24-2024, 10:11 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah. Bingo.

There isn't much talent on defense.

And to add to it, many of the free agents brought in either don't fit needs, or aren't talented.

Stone looks like Nick Scott part 2. Rankins can rush the passer, but not really a run stuffer and is hurt. BJ Hill is a good 3rd tackle. Maybe 2nd next to a great one.

Chide is missed in the secondary. So is Bates.

But, you lose Reader and then all the sudden your LB's look weak because blockers are on them.

Or are cheaper, significant downgrades than what we had. That's the key. 

(09-24-2024, 10:20 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Or are cheaper, significant downgrades than what we had. That's the key. 

Bingo again. Some teams target guys that fit their scheme. We wait until the price tags go down, then add a guy like Rankins that is a decent to above average guy. But, he's a pass rusher at DT. Not a run stuffer. And he's hurt. Reader was probably the best DT in the league vs the run. And I think Reader wanted to be here.

We let Bates go and replace him with Nick Scott. That fails, and we bring in Geno Stone. Big downgrades.

(09-24-2024, 10:23 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bingo again. Some teams target guys that fit their scheme. We wait until the price tags go down, then add a guy like Rankins that is a decent to above average guy. But, he's a pass rusher at DT. Not a run stuffer. And he's hurt. Reader was probably the best DT in the league vs the run. And I think Reader wanted to be here.

We let Bates go and replace him with Nick Scott. That fails, and we bring in Geno Stone. Big downgrades.

I couldn't believe the people on this board that spoke of Geno Stone so highly. He split time as the Ravens 3rd safety for the last two years with Ardarius Washington, who just happened to get hurt for them the last two years, elevating Stone as the 3rd S. He is a back-end of the roster depth piece who is a poor run defender with limited athletic ability that just happened to have 7 INTs last year. Fluky things happen when it comes to INTs and somehow the front office + many fans on this board thought we signed a difference maker. 

(09-24-2024, 10:48 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I couldn't believe the people on this board that spoke of Geno Stone so highly. He split time as the Ravens 3rd safety for the last two years with Ardarius Washington, who just happened to get hurt for them the last two years, elevating Stone as the 3rd S. He is a back-end of the roster depth piece who is a poor run defender with limited athletic ability that just happened to have 7 INTs last year. Fluky things happen when it comes to INTs and somehow the front office + many fans on this board thought we signed a difference maker. 

which is fine if they rotated him with Battle. But they rather keep Stone out there and not use battle

(09-24-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Blame the coaches, blame the defense, blame whoever.

The real issue? The talent on the roster. It's not good enough, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

The 2021 Super Bowl team was built on free agency - Reader, Chido, Hendrickson, Hilton, Reiff, Vonn Bell. The Bengals have added or replaced some of that talent bringing in Cappa, Karras, Orlando Brown Jr, Geno Stone, Rankins who are on their current roster.

My question is this - where are the draft picks? Other than the Burrow and Chase LAY UPS, who have we drafted since 2019 that you'd consider a good positional NFL player? Higgins, CTB, Logan Wilson. That's it.

The Bengals have WHIFFED in the draft over the past 5 years.

When is Duke Tobin going to be held accountable? Who's responsible for the drafting of guys, especially on the defensive side of the ball? Does Lou have a say? Because he sure seemed giddy every time he was at the podium after we drafted 3 straight defensive players in the first 3 rounds last year.

They need more out of the draft. We can't continue whiffing on first round picks like Dax Hill and second round picks like Jackson Carman. We can't have drafts like 2021 where literally no one is contributing other than Chase. Everyone LOVED this years class, but who is contributing on the defensive side of the ball? It's been pathetic.

What makes all of this worse is we way over value draft picks. We won't trade them for players and keep thinking we can replace players by cheap draft picks and we can't. I think this year is lost and honestly it may be our best hope that it is. We need to pray the right playoff team loses WRs and is willing to overpay for Higgins during the season. Then get those early draft picks in 1,2 and 3. But still doesn't solve the problem of drafting well.

(09-24-2024, 10:51 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: which is fine if they rotated him with Battle. But they rather keep Stone out there and not use battle

I don't think people talk enough about how little we're using Battle in the ass-filled defense. Had a great rookie season, and with the defense being this bad we can't find a more permanent spot for him? 

(09-24-2024, 10:51 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: which is fine if they rotated him with Battle. But they rather keep Stone out there and not use battle

Jordan Battle defensive snaps this season...

Week One: 0
Week Two: 1
Week Three: 0

Battle, mind you, ranked 12th of 104 safeties in PFF run defense grading in 2023 (Geno Stone ranked 104th last season in Baltimore).

— Willie Lutz (@willie_lutz) September 24, 2024

Not saying Battle was the answer but we had literally no one that could crash down and make a play on those short passes last night. Not sure why we refuse to give him a chance especially we were giving opportunities to Anthony last week.

(09-24-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Blame the coaches, blame the defense, blame whoever.

The real issue? The talent on the roster. It's not good enough, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

The 2021 Super Bowl team was built on free agency - Reader, Chido, Hendrickson, Hilton, Reiff, Vonn Bell. The Bengals have added or replaced some of that talent bringing in Cappa, Karras, Orlando Brown Jr, Geno Stone, Rankins who are on their current roster.

My question is this - where are the draft picks? Other than the Burrow and Chase LAY UPS, who have we drafted since 2019 that you'd consider a good positional NFL player? Higgins, CTB, Logan Wilson. That's it.

The Bengals have WHIFFED in the draft over the past 5 years.

When is Duke Tobin going to be held accountable? Who's responsible for the drafting of guys, especially on the defensive side of the ball? Does Lou have a say? Because he sure seemed giddy every time he was at the podium after we drafted 3 straight defensive players in the first 3 rounds last year.

They need more out of the draft. We can't continue whiffing on first round picks like Dax Hill and second round picks like Jackson Carman. We can't have drafts like 2021 where literally no one is contributing other than Chase. Everyone LOVED this years class, but who is contributing on the defensive side of the ball? It's been pathetic.

This team has philosophically moved it's team building philosophy away from what made them a SB contender in the first place.  

When we were true contenders, we drafted skill position players high and effectively built the defense out of FA.  Now, we're trying to build the defense in the draft and piece together the offense out of FA's and Day 3 draft picks around the trio of good players we drafted and still have left(and one's playing for someone else next year).  It's not working.

Bottom line is this, this team cannot draft and develop "trenches" to save it's life. You can either keep throwing away premium draft capital for little return or accept it and address them in another way.  

I feel like Dax, Battle, and Turner can be good players but they're behind established players so they're not getting a fair shake.
Dax should be our Nickleback, Battle should start at SS, and Turner should be starting at CB.

(09-24-2024, 10:48 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: I couldn't believe the people on this board that spoke of Geno Stone so highly. He split time as the Ravens 3rd safety for the last two years with Ardarius Washington, who just happened to get hurt for them the last two years, elevating Stone as the 3rd S. He is a back-end of the roster depth piece who is a poor run defender with limited athletic ability that just happened to have 7 INTs last year. Fluky things happen when it comes to INTs and somehow the front office + many fans on this board thought we signed a difference maker. 

People were talking up Nick Scott too. Nick 'the brick' Scott.

I was like...uhh this guy is a special teamer.

Stone is probably good, ON BALTIMORE'S defense where they have a pass rush. Here, where we don't have that...not so good. Context matters when you sign guys.

(09-24-2024, 11:31 AM)Whatever Wrote: This team has philosophically moved it's team building philosophy away from what made them a SB contender in the first place.  

When we were true contenders, we drafted skill position players high and effectively built the defense out of FA.  Now, we're trying to build the defense in the draft and piece together the offense out of FA's and Day 3 draft picks around the trio of good players we drafted and still have left(and one's playing for someone else next year).  It's not working.

Bottom line is this, this team cannot draft and develop "trenches" to save it's life. You can either keep throwing away premium draft capital for little return or accept it and address them in another way.  

Well, we look at our roster and we're like in 2 years this player will cost too much and leave. So we draft the replacement. Happened since Whitworth.

But, most of the time the drafted guys are about half as good as the guy they replace, so the strategy fails. Over and over.

Look...we don't draft well outside of Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.

(09-24-2024, 12:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well, we look at our roster and we're like in 2 years this player will cost too much and leave. So we draft the replacement. Happened since Whitworth.

But, most of the time the drafted guys are about half as good as the guy they replace, so the strategy fails. Over and over.

Look...we don't draft well outside of Burrow, Chase, and Higgins.

Not retaining their own best players is another philosophy shift, sadly.  But drafting to replace is a sound strategy...at positions you can actually draft and develop.  

The Bengals do very well drafting WR's and RB's within the first three rounds.  But instead of drafting to replace Mixon, they overpaid for him for years, even when he wasn't a great scheme fit.  Or, they knew Tee and Boyd were going to be UFA's this year for quite awhile.  Instead of spending some premium picks there to develop and replace them, they put it off and are now starting a 6th round scrub and had to handcuff themselves in FA by tagging their WR2.  Christian Wilkins has a cap hit of $10.4 mil this year, less than half of Tee's.  Sure would be nice to have him on this DL, now, wouldn't it?  

Historically, with our Day 1 and 2 picks, we draft well at WR, RB, TE, CB, and S.  We sucked at LB for years, but that seems to have changed with Pratt and Wilson.  The last "trench" player we've really hit on in those rounds was Hubbard...seven fn years ago.  

It's not rocket science.  Who would you rather have on a rookie deal, the next Joe Mixon or the next Devon Still?  The next Jessie Bates or the next Jackson Carmen?  The next Jonah Williams or the next Jermaine Gresham?  The next Myles Murphy or the next Ja'Marr Chase?  The next Logan Wilson or the next Zach Carter?  The next Jordan Battle or the next Joseph Ossai?

Makes ZERO sense.  None.

(09-24-2024, 12:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: Not retaining their own best players is another philosophy shift, sadly.  But drafting to replace is a sound strategy...at positions you can actually draft and develop.  

The Bengals do very well drafting WR's and RB's within the first three rounds.  But instead of drafting to replace Mixon, they overpaid for him for years, even when he wasn't a great scheme fit.  Or, they knew Tee and Boyd were going to be UFA's this year for quite awhile.  Instead of spending some premium picks there to develop and replace them, they put it off and are now starting a 6th round scrub and had to handcuff themselves in FA by tagging their WR2.  Christian Wilkins has a cap hit of $10.4 mil this year, less than half of Tee's.  Sure would be nice to have him on this DL, now, wouldn't it?  

Historically, with our Day 1 and 2 picks, we draft well at WR, RB, TE, CB, and S.  We sucked at LB for years, but that seems to have changed with Pratt and Wilson.  The last "trench" player we've really hit on in those rounds was Hubbard...seven fn years ago.  

It's not rocket science.  Who would you rather have on a rookie deal, the next Joe Mixon or the next Devon Still?  The next Jessie Bates or the next Jackson Carmen?  The next Jonah Williams or the next Jermaine Gresham?  The next Myles Murphy or the next Ja'Marr Chase?  The next Logan Wilson or the next Zach Carter?  The next Jordan Battle or the next Joseph Ossai?

Makes ZERO sense.  None.

We've struggled at S to replace Bates. We've struggled to draft Tackles to replace Whitworth. We struggle to draft defensive lineman.

Unfortunately, he has lifetime job security.

When you’re paying an elite QB it’s understandable that a team is going to lose some talent that they’re not able to pay, or players getting older. The Bengals don’t draft well enough to adequately replace the talent they are losing. And the FO is too rigid with their approach to the salary cap to make up for their bad drafts with free agents.

The Bengals used to have a Super Bowl caliber roster, but they haven’t been able to maintain that talent level, and unfortunately, we don’t have a coaching staff that is able to get more from lesser talent.