(06-15-2015, 05:07 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: BTW- Isn't Jon supposed to be a warg too? They never mention it on the TV version.

Next to Bran he was the strongest Warg in the Stark family. Well maybe Robb stark. but we never got his PoV just that his wolf lead them into battle several times and that he moved like a wolf.

Jon i think struggled against it at first but has been having the wolf dreams more and more in the books at least. (i thought they did a poor job of intergrating the wolves the entire series..)

Which is why i asked if they show'd Six Skins death... As that taught us when a warg is dying they can jump into the body of one of their "familars" to survive.. Eventually the man will disappear and only beast will remain (as far as memories and thoughts)
**which is also how i think Lord reed saved Lord stark from the Sword in the Morning**

Can their be a season 6 if book 6 doesnt come out before due to the cliffhangers involved?

Here is something handy I came across: http://mashable.com/2015/06/15/game-of-thrones-books-plotlines/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link

My point above really is what story lines can they use for a whole season without Jon, Arya, Tyrion, and Sansa involved? I cant imagine they would even think about furthering their stories in the show without the book being published first, because that to me would be a massive fail. The show writers have gotten more negative feedback this season than all the others from everything I have seen, so they all better have a real solid plan going into next season or the show will become the new Lost.

(06-15-2015, 04:35 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: You guys mean Robert Strongboar  vs the Gravedigger?

the hound wouldnt be a frankenhound has he was just rescued by a monk and  not brought back from the dead by a necromancer.

Wait the Hound was rescued in the books? I really have got to re-read those again? It will be so much easier this time around. Its a hard read first time through without the show as a backdrop for the numerous characters and such. 

I suspect that they are going to "frankenresurrect" Myrcella and marry her off to Robert Strongboar on HBO.

Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein.

(06-15-2015, 02:20 PM)Beaker Wrote: The death of Stannis effectively ends the Baratheon bloodline. The only hope is Gendry, who is missing, and he would have to be legitimized.

Edric Storm was recognized by Robert as his mom was of a noble house and is hiding in Essos.

(06-15-2015, 10:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Wait the Hound was rescued in the books? I really have got to re-read those again? It will be so much easier this time around. Its a hard read first time through without the show as a backdrop for the numerous characters and such. 

book 4 one of Brienne's chapters.... she and prodrick payne while traveling with a septem(sp) find a monestary on an island.

the monk in charge tells them about how he "died" in the battle of the trident and was rescued by monks his death wasnt literal but just the death of who he used to be.

then they see a tall Gravedigger with a bad leg (tooken at the inn with arya when fighting the Lannister men) Petting a dog.

Seems redundant, but spoiler alerts:



Maybe it stems from me watching the entire season over 3 days, but is it just me or is the pacing of the season whack?

Maybe I missed a few cues, but did Tyrion really just get put in control of Mereen after all of like 2 days with the queen and her people? This "long death" thing isn't that long at all, if the Sand Snakes are still watching the boat sail away. I dunno, a lot of times I wasn't sure if the next episode was happening a day later, weeks after, or hours after the last.

RE: Jon. The show (I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure about them) isn't exactly subtle about its foreshadowing. From the buildup to the Caesar treatment, to his (imo inevitable) return. Heck, Sam said it clear as day "He always comes back." I get that killing off beloved characters gives Martin a hard on, but it would do such a disservice to all the themes of this work and the readers. Killing off a potential hero as a surprise is useful (see Ned), but when you're deep into act 2 of a story? Not so much. Permakilling Jon now would seem more like self-parody and a big middle finger to fans rather than an effective literary device.

I won't call the Jon "cliffhanger" a failure, because I don't think it was ever intended to create confusion over whether he's gone. With all the clues to the contrary sprinkled about (and not just the books, but included in the show), it would be a ginormous television sin to betray careful and astute viewers with what would otherwise be unforgivable deception/misdirection.

Although, the producer did say he's dead and the actor claims not to be under contract. Not sure I understand what they're trying to accomplish, but maybe it's just easier to dodge the inevitable questions about who (or what) Jon becomes. So maybe more about not filling fans with false hope that the character they know is just going to magically be his old self.

Think someone may have mentioned it here, but I have to agree this may have been necessary to move the character on to his next stage of progression/action. He already turned down an out from Stannis, and I don't think there was another way to move him on from Castle Black without betraying his integrity/loyalty.

You could also argue that to truly become a great leader, the one lesson Jon really has yet to learn was betrayal and abandonment. And we can probably find a parallels with the last few episodes on the other side of the sea for Dany. They left us with the two in nearly identical situations, hopeless and alone (or so it seems).

(06-16-2015, 04:01 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Seems redundant, but spoiler alerts:



Maybe it stems from me watching the entire season over 3 days, but is it just me or is the pacing of the season whack?

Maybe I missed a few cues, but did Tyrion really just get put in control of Mereen after all of like 2 days with the queen and her people? This "long death" thing isn't that long at all, if the Sand Snakes are still watching the boat sail away. I dunno, a lot of times I wasn't sure if the next episode was happening a day later, weeks after, or hours after the last.

RE: Jon. The show (I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure about them) isn't exactly subtle about its foreshadowing. From the buildup to the Caesar treatment, to his (imo inevitable) return. Heck, Sam said it clear as day "He always comes back." I get that killing off beloved characters gives Martin a hard on, but it would do such a disservice to all the themes of this work and the readers. Killing off a potential hero as a surprise is useful (see Ned), but when you're deep into act 2 of a story? Not so much. Permakilling Jon now would seem more like self-parody and a big middle finger to fans rather than an effective literary device.

in this case i would say his death in the books (right at the end of book 5) is gonna serve 2 purposes....

1. It relives him of his command of the night watch. as he technecally died. and we get to see the 999th commander (likely the last ever imo)
2. It will give way to the proof of his parentage or that he is the Prince that was promised or Azor Ahlor reborn (might have misspelled that) As with the Red Priestest there and the Watch currently burning all the Dead. Jon will be throw on the fire and cleansed. the Red Priestest will then bring him back to life if the Lord of Fire doesnt do that itself while hes in the fire.

this is my thought on it. I dont believe hes Dead for good as there is no other PoV near the wall worth following and thats where all the interesting stuff is happennig at the moment.

As for Tryion in the books he travells by barge with Aegon (the baby the mountain supposedly smashed) Targ. Jon Connington (rheager best friend) and a Septa (whos true origins were unknown but fits a few persons we know of that have sense been missing) Anyways Once they get near Danny He conviences Aegon to go to Westros with the golden company at his back. and tyrion himself is sold into a circus like show. He eventually makes it out of that and joins a sell sword company and conviences them to retake the Rock as he should be its lord now. and thats where he leaves off.

And the young Martell prince saved the dragons by unchaining them giving his life in the process.... he was there to marry Danny to honor the Trags pact with Dorne (danny had other plans)

I hear ya on the Jon Snow part. But as Sam says, Jon always comes back. The question is when

(06-16-2015, 05:09 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I hear ya on the Jon Snow part. But as Sam says, Jon always comes back. The question is when

the only thing i cant remember is where was ghost...

Greywind was going nuts when the freys where even thinking of killing Robb.

Can someone help me was ghost still trapped on the other side of the wall?

I'll also agree Jon may emerge from fire (a la Dany), perhaps suggesting (proving?) to himself and everyone else he has royal Targyaren blood?

And I'll go as far as to predict he assumes command of the Wildlings because he'll need an army to do some conquering (and build a coalition to fight the Walkers). While there may not be many fighters left in that bunch, there's probably enough to go to Winterfell where probably at least half of the Boltons' forces will simply turn to fight for Jon. Also, isn't his brother's army still out there somewhere or had they joined Stannis?

After Drogon gets off his lazy butt to swoop in to eat a few Dothraki, Dany's army will grow by thousands. And after taking Winterfell, does Jon avenge his adopted family to clean up the scraps from the Dorne/Westerios war? Maybe Jon doesn't want to rule, which makes for an easy compromise with Dany when he assumes command of the armies.

All my own speculation - I haven't read any of the books. I wonder how Arya factors in, or if she's just a cool, tangential PoV not particularly important to the larger story.

They're going to bring in a new actor to play the new and reborn Jon Snow next season: Caitlyn Jenner.

(06-16-2015, 06:05 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: They're going to bring in a new actor to play the new and reborn Jon Snow next season: Caitlyn Jenner.  

And whose new reborn name will be...Jen Snow 

(06-16-2015, 05:14 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the only thing i cant remember is where was ghost...

Greywind was going nuts when the freys where even thinking of killing Robb.

Can someone help me was ghost still trapped on the other side of the wall?

In the show Jon went up North to that village (that got massacred by the Whites), but didnt have Ghost with him as they went by ship to get there. Once again we have to assume (thanks writers) that Ghost was out doing his thing on this side of the wall, and wasnt there when Jon returned.

Personally if I was a writer, I would have had Jon send Ghost with Sam when he left to go to Oldetown, at least for most of the way for protection. That would have easily explained that and made a ton of sense.

(06-16-2015, 05:29 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I'll also agree Jon may emerge from fire (a la  Dany), perhaps suggesting (proving?) to himself and everyone else he has royal Targyaren blood?

And I'll go as far as to predict he assumes command of the Wildlings because he'll need an army to do some conquering (and build a coalition to fight the Walkers).  While there may not be many fighters left in that bunch, there's probably enough to go to Winterfell where probably at least half of the Boltons' forces will simply turn to fight for Jon.  Also, isn't his brother's army still out there somewhere or had they joined Stannis?

After Drogon gets off his lazy butt to swoop in to eat a few Dothraki, Dany's army will grow by thousands.  And after taking Winterfell, does Jon avenge his adopted family to clean up the scraps from the Dorne/Westerios war?  Maybe Jon doesn't want to rule, which makes for an easy compromise with Dany when he assumes command of the armies.

All my own speculation - I haven't read any of the books.  I wonder how Arya factors in, or if she's just a cool, tangential PoV not particularly important to the larger story.

When it comes to Jon, those that read books have been at this cliffhanger for years now. All evidence from the books, show, and Martin himself suggests Jon will not remain dead for long. Also if he would actually be dead forever, Martin will alienate much of the fanbase, and will get slammed review wise. 

(06-16-2015, 09:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: In the show Jon went up North to that village (that got massacred by the Whites), but didnt have Ghost with him as they went by ship to get there. Once again we have to assume (thanks writers) that Ghost was out doing his thing on this side of the wall, and wasnt there when Jon returned.

Personally if I was a writer, I would have had Jon send Ghost with Sam when he left to go to Oldetown, at least for most of the way for protection. That would have easily explained that and made a ton of sense.

That makes a lot of sense, Jon sending Ghost with Sam to protect them.

I do want to say my biggest gripe with the writers of the show as of late is I got the impression they leaned on shock value more than creative value at times. The best example was the assassination in the finale. In the 'previous episodes' intro part, they flashed back to Benjen Stark. Now the only reason that was in there was for one specific scene of the episode, in which Jon was told of the wildling that had news of Benjen. That was it, all for shock. Another example I give a thumbs down review on was the burning of Shireen, all for needless shock. And then having Sansa basically raped when she wasnt even married to him to begin with in the books is just crappy writing.

Basically I think this season had great moments and not so great. Overall though was pretty good, just wish they could have re-done it better in some parts.