(02-02-2016, 05:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what you are claiming here.

Atkins draws as many double teams as any DT in the league and almost no offense double teams both DTs at the same time.

Geno doesn't draw as many doubles in the run game as you would think. 
Pass pro, yes he does. 


But the problem lies with the other DTs. They cannot take and hold ground on a double team. 
There's 20-25% of plays Geno isn't on the field. We get gashed in every way when he is off. 

(02-02-2016, 06:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: But the problem lies with the other DTs. They cannot take and hold ground on a double team. 

That is completely different from keeping LBs clean.  The DT does not decide if he is double teamed or not.

Sometimes on zone runs a DT can disrupt more than one lineman, but otherwise it is impossible to tie up blockers unless they are trying to block him in the first place.

(02-02-2016, 06:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Geno doesn't draw as many doubles in the run game as you would think. 

Yes he does.

And if Geno fails at keeping the LBs clean then what DT is better?

(02-02-2016, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is completely different from keeping LBs clean.  The DT does not decide if he is double teamed or not.

Sometimes on outside zone runs a DT can disrupt more than one lineman, but otherwise it is impossible to tie up blockers unless they are trying to block him in the first place.

It's alignment and assignment, agreed.

There seems to be a bit of overstatement on effectiveness of DT vs. LB.  That said, we could really use some new talent in both rooms

(02-02-2016, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is completely different from keeping LBs clean.  The DT does not decide if he is double teamed or not.

Sometimes on outside zone runs a DT can disrupt more than one lineman, but otherwise it is impossible to tie up blockers unless they are trying to block him in the first place.

(02-02-2016, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes he does.

And if Geno fails at keeping the LBs clean then what DT is better?

Okay let's slow this down.

That's exactly what keeping the LB's clean is. Holding the ground on the double team so the 2nd OL cannot free release to the LB.


Teams will not double team Geno when he is on the backside of a run.
Again, you are showing a lack of knowledge here. Geno's skill set is not conducive to taking on double teams. He's a 3T. That's not his job. It's not his skill set. 
You shouldn't rely on your 3T to do the work of your NT. It's counter-intuitive and hurts the defense. 

Some how you have tried to turn this into something about Geno when it's about the other DTs on the roster. 

(02-02-2016, 06:31 PM)TGISunday Wrote: It's alignment and assignment, agreed.

There seems to be a bit of overstatement on effectiveness of DT vs. LB.  That said, we could really use some new talent in both rooms

Don't encourage him.
He didn't actually post anything of relevance. 

He claimed that Geno draws double teams then says that the DT doesn't control the double teams....a complete contradiction in the run game (which is what is being discussed). 

He talks about some stuff that has nothing to do with double teams. 

Then says being able to hold up at the POA is not about keeping the LB clean.

(02-02-2016, 06:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That's exactly what keeping the LB's clean is. Holding the ground on the double team so the 2nd OL cannot free release to the LB.

Generally the person assigned to block the LB goes straight for the LB instead of double teaming the DT first then releasing to the LB.  

When the offense is running a zone blocking scheme then sometimes a DT can tie up multiple blockers on an  run, but otherwise a DT can not "create" a double team when the offense is not trying to double team him in the first place.  Do you think no player is assigned to block the LB if the DT is double teamed?

So if you are saying that we need a DT that demands more double teams I will agree with you, but we already have Geno who demands double team as often as any DT in the league.  So I don't know how our LBs would not already be benefiting from those.

(02-02-2016, 06:31 PM)TGISunday Wrote: It's alignment and assignment, agreed.

I am glad someone understands.

(02-02-2016, 06:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: He claimed that Geno draws double teams

Which is exactly correct.

You, on the other hand claimed he never did.  .  .  

(02-02-2016, 03:57 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: People will be shocked at the difference it makes when your LBs aren't having to deal with a guard every snap

(02-02-2016, 08:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Generally the person assigned to block the LB goes straight for the LB instead of double teaming the DT first then releasing to the LB.  

When the offense is running a zone blocking scheme then sometimes a DT can tie up multiple blockers on an outside zone run, but otherwise a DT can not "create" a double team when the offense is not trying to double team him in the first place.  Do you think no player is assigned to block the LB if the DT is double teamed?

So if you are saying that we need a DT that demands more double teams I will agree with you, but we already have Geno who demands double team as often as any DT in the league.  So I don't know how our LBs would not already be benefiting from those.

Just false. Just absolutely wrong. Good god. 

(02-02-2016, 08:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Which is exactly correct.

You, on the other hand claimed he never did.  .  .  

You're not nearly as good at this as you think you are.
You have said DTs do not dictate double teams. Then they do. Then they don't.

Good god. 

(02-03-2016, 02:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You're not nearly as good at this as you think you are.
You have said DTs do not dictate double teams. Then they do. Then they don't.

Good god. 

The offense determine who gets double teamed on each play.  If there is not a double team called then a DT can not take up two blockers (except in some zne blocking plays).  And most of the time time in the run game the double team is determined by which direction the play is being run  instead of how good the DT is.  That is why Genno doesn't draw double teams when he is on the opposite side of the play.  It is not because he is not a good DT.  It is because the play is going in the other direction.  And even a weak DT will often draw a double team if he is on the play side.

Understand now?  

(02-03-2016, 01:58 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Just false. Just absolutely wrong. Good god. 

Not false.  If the O-lineman tries to double team a DT before blocking the LB then the LB will be gone by the time he gets there.

Many times you will see where a double team is called on a DT, but the DT runs a slant or stunt that takes one of the O-linemen out of the double team.  In that case the o-lineman will go straight to a second level block.  Other time a DT will run a stunt or slant that takes him into a double team that helps the LB come clean.  But I don't know of any plays where the OC says "double team the DT and leave the LB unblocked".

And, of course, in a zone blocking scheme you will often see a DT occupy multiple blockers, but that is not technically a "double team".  

(02-04-2016, 01:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not false.  If the O-lineman tries to double team a DT before blocking the LB then the LB will be gone by the time he gets there.

Many times you will see where a double team is called on a DT, but the DT runs a slant or stunt that takes one of the O-linemen out of the double team.  In that case the o-lineman will go straight to a second level block.  Other time a DT will run a stunt or slant that takes him into a double team that helps the LB come clean.  But I don't know of any plays where the OC says "double team the DT and leave the LB unblocked".

And, of course, in a zone blocking scheme you will often see a DT occupy multiple blockers, but that is not technically a "double team".  

I am physically laughing out loud at this. 

Double to the LB

Double to the LB

Double to the LB

Double to the LB

(02-03-2016, 02:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You're not nearly as good at this as you think you are.
You have said DTs do not dictate double teams. Then they do. Then they don't.

Good god. 

Fred likes to argue with himself...

BTW, i have heard Jaylon Smith's name thrown around but what are some of the other early round Linebackers to look at?

I need to study up on the Linebackers and DT's early.

Reggie Ragland and Myles Jack are the 2 i can think of off the top of my head who i like.

(02-04-2016, 04:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Fred likes to argue with himself...

BTW, i have heard Jaylon Smith's name thrown around but what are some of the other early round Linebackers to look at?

I need to study up on the Linebackers and DT's early.

Reggie Ragland and Myles Jack are the 2 i can think of off the top of my head who i like.

Myles is probably a top 10 pick.

Darron Lee (OSU)
Deion Jones (LSU)
Sua Cravens (USC)
Leonard Floyd (UGA) 
Jatavis Brown (Akron) 

(02-04-2016, 04:41 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Myles is probably a top 10 pick.

Darron Lee (OSU)
Deion Jones (LSU)
Sua Cravens (USC)
Leonard Floyd (UGA) 
Jatavis Brown (Akron) 

Thanks RRL, i have watched all of these guys play except Brown. There is some damn fine Linebackers in this draft as well as DT's.

Lucky for us. Billings is a guy that really impressed me but i see him as more of a Geno type DT rather than a NT which is needed more.

(02-04-2016, 04:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks RRL, i have watched all of these guys play except Brown. There is some damn fine Linebackers in this draft as well as DT's.

Lucky for us. Billings is a guy that really impressed me but i see him as more of a Geno type DT rather than a NT which is needed more.

Billings could probably do both. 
I think he'd best suited as a 1T who move around. He's got the build and skill set to hold the POA and his pass rush isn't really refined enough to be a 3T.

I'd play him as a 1T and let him blow up centers in the run game all day

The good thing about this draft it seems to be a lot of nickle Lbers available.