(04-10-2016, 09:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I guess the point I was making is that the Browns might try 4 different HC's in the same time frame we let Dave Shula be our HC. It seemed pretty clear off the bat that he had no business being a HC and I think in hindsight we rather wish he would have been fired after that first season.
I'm not even discussing Marvin or his merits in this thread, this is just about Hue taking a HC position now rather than waiting for Mavin to either retire for no real reason. The only way I see Marvin getting fired is if the Bengals become super awful anyways, so he might as well take his job as a HC of a super awful team now.
In spite of Dalton injured, we had that play-off game won with only seconds left, and then those bonehead penalties and fumble ruined everything, just gave the game away.....Bengals should have held the lead and won, and Marvin has this team so close to going Super Bowl you can taste it, you can feel it......and why ownership is not going to get rid of Marvin for Hue or anybody and change horses in the middle of the stream. .....The window of opportunity for this era of Bengals to go Super Bowl is still wide open. ......I could have seen Zimmer as head coach and Marvin up to GM, with Zim bringing his Bill Parcels past to the table....but not Gruden or Hue. I have no problem with Marvin playing out the shoe and seeing if we can go Super Bowl.
I honestly don't think it matters. We all know how things go in Cleveland. Mediocrity at it's finest up there. Hue is a great coach, but that organization is managed horribly. He'll only be there 1-2 years and then end up rightback here in Cincinnati. Maybe as HC, maybe as a coordinator. Just my opinion.
(04-11-2016, 12:57 AM)sixxfan26 Wrote: I honestly don't think it matters. We all know how things go in Cleveland. Mediocrity at it's finest up there. Hue is a great coach, but that organization is managed horribly. He'll only be there 1-2 years and then end up rightback here in Cincinnati. Maybe as HC, maybe as a coordinator. Just my opinion.
#1 mediocrity in Cleveland would be a veritable golden age
#2 one of the main points of this thread is that Marvin Lewis chose to be the HC of a franchise that was deemed about as hopeless as Cleveland is now
Never say never, I guess. Who knows. The bottom line is that Hue got an offer to be a HC so he took it. Maybe every HC should choose to take a demotion to hold Bill Bellyache's pants up so they can get a ring, or something.
Has anyone read this?? Marvin wanted to groom Hue for the HC job for the Bengals and give him the keys in two years. Mike Brown couldn't guarantee it because that's too far down the road. So Hue takes his stuff and heads over to the rival to prove a point?? Interesting and disappointing at the same time.
I guess one head coaching job in the hand is worth more than a "no promises" attitude from Mike Brown.
Personally, I don't blame Mikey B for passing - at this point in time. Sure Hue has some upside, but when you look at Cleveland, they'll likely fire him before two years is up anyways and Mikey can get him back at a bargain bin price as a twice failed head coach.
You gotta know that the gears in Mikey's head were turning overtime on this one.
(04-10-2016, 12:24 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: I read (on NFL.com I think) that the plan was in place but didn't happen because mike wouldn't put it in writing. Who knows exactly but I think it was fairly close to happening. This will work out just as well tho because he'll be fired in two years when marvins current deal expires so we win a SB or two then Browns get impatient as always and fire him and we give Hue a real chance as a head coach
marvins extension was just to avoid the lame duck status of a coach in his last year. this is probly his last shot.
(04-10-2016, 10:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So the Browns averaged a new HC every 2 years and 1.5 starting QBs per year.
The Bengals averaged a new HC every 2.5 years and 1.2 starting QBs over the 10 year span I mentioned.
Seems like we're splitting hairs here.
Hollas— 4th round. Didn't remember the guy, no idea how he started two games in two years, but I'm guessing injury.
Wilhelm — 3rd round. Injury backup.
Schroeder — Free agent. Honestly, I don't remember this guy starting either as he had three games in his one season.
Klinger— 1st round. A bust for the spot.
Blake— Free agent (was originally a 6th round). To get two years starting out of him, Blake was fun.
Boomer — Is Boomer. Was one of our best QBs, especially at that time. If management had handled it better, we might have done better.
O'Donell— Free agent. Didn't do much.
Justin — Free agent. Didn't do much.
Akili— Busted so hard fans still shake their head.
Mitchell— Didn't do much.
Gus— Didn't do much
Kitna— Did pretty well.
Palmer— Did pretty well
That's our worst 16 years. Two first round busts, three total first rounders if you count Boomer. Mostly free agents.
For the Browns you've got....
Couch— 1st round, bust. (Although, I think Couch could have been a good QB if he wasn't abused by every defense)
Detmer— FA, injury backup
Spergon — 6th round. Didn't do much
Pederson — FA, didn't do much.
Holcomb — FA, didn't do much
Luke McCown — 4th, didn't do much
Garcia— FA, one of their better QBs.... so of course they only kept him around a season
Frye— 3rd round. Pretty fry for a white guy... just kidding, he didn't do anything
Dilfer— FA, is Dilfer.
Anderson— FA sixth rounder who played like one.
Quinn— 1st round. Bust. Single digit wins as a starter over two years.
Dorsey. FA, didn't do much
Gradkowski — FA. Forgot he even played there.
Seneca — traded for 7th rounder. Meh.
Delhomme— Good once, meh there.
Colt McCoy— 3rd round. Didn't do much, but not bad for a third rounder.
Thad Lewis — FA. Who? Dunno. Started a game, but I don't remember it.
Weeden— 22nd overall pick.
Hoyer— FA, meh
Campbell — Meh
Shaw— UDFA, meh
Manziel — 22nd overall. Not there now.
Davis — Meh
McCown— Meh.
24 QBs in 16 years. We had 13 in our roughest 16 year stretch. We're probably about even on first round busts, or just bad picks overall as most of theirs came from FA or trades. Still... I'm not seeing our worst 16 years being so even with theirs. In our worst 16 years, we had 4 head coaches (Shula, Coslet, LeBeau, Marvin). In theirs, 9.
If you're just looking at 10 years, it's still 17-12 on QBs and 3 (Shula, Coslet, Lebeau) to 5 on head coaches (7 if you look at 2014-2004 instead of 2015-2005).
But those are numbers. Even if you put those aside, I do not see where Cleveland is making any growth. Maybe it's because I've got rose colored glasses, but outside of the first few years after Sam, I thought we were moving in the right direction. We still stunk a lot, but we had some things we were doing right. Looking at the Browns in few year increments, or over the long-term, I just don't really see anything positive.
(04-11-2016, 10:44 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Mike Brown has successfully vanquished the lame duck year, and created something known as the lame duck decade.
(04-11-2016, 12:57 AM)sixxfan26 Wrote: I honestly don't think it matters. We all know how things go in Cleveland. Mediocrity at it's finest up there. Hue is a great coach, but that organization is managed horribly. He'll only be there 1-2 years and then end up rightback here in Cincinnati. Maybe as HC, maybe as a coordinator. Just my opinion.
Anyone who thinks Hue will be back in Cincinnati while Mike Brown is still alive is crazy. Hue could have taken a job with ANY of the other teams in the league and been welcomed back. Mike Brown HATES the Cleveland Browns. As much as MB probably loves Hue, taking a job with the Browns was probably seen as the biggest betrayal to the Brown family possible.
(04-11-2016, 11:19 AM)Benton Wrote: Hollas— 4th round. Didn't remember the guy, no idea how he started two games in two years, but I'm guessing injury.
Wilhelm — 3rd round. Injury backup.
Schroeder — Free agent. Honestly, I don't remember this guy starting either as he had three games in his one season.
Klinger— 1st round. A bust for the spot.
Blake— Free agent (was originally a 6th round). To get two years starting out of him, Blake was fun.
Boomer — Is Boomer. Was one of our best QBs, especially at that time. If management had handled it better, we might have done better.
O'Donell— Free agent. Didn't do much.
Justin — Free agent. Didn't do much.
Akili— Busted so hard fans still shake their head.
Mitchell— Didn't do much.
Gus— Didn't do much
Kitna— Did pretty well.
Palmer— Did pretty well
That's our worst 16 years. Two first round busts, three total first rounders if you count Boomer. Mostly free agents.
For the Browns you've got....
Couch— 1st round, bust. (Although, I think Couch could have been a good QB if he wasn't abused by every defense)
Detmer— FA, injury backup
Spergon — 6th round. Didn't do much
Pederson — FA, didn't do much.
Holcomb — FA, didn't do much
Luke McCown — 4th, didn't do much
Garcia— FA, one of their better QBs.... so of course they only kept him around a season
Frye— 3rd round. Pretty fry for a white guy... just kidding, he didn't do anything
Dilfer— FA, is Dilfer.
Anderson— FA sixth rounder who played like one.
Quinn— 1st round. Bust. Single digit wins as a starter over two years.
Dorsey. FA, didn't do much
Gradkowski — FA. Forgot he even played there.
Seneca — traded for 7th rounder. Meh.
Delhomme— Good once, meh there.
Colt McCoy— 3rd round. Didn't do much, but not bad for a third rounder.
Thad Lewis — FA. Who? Dunno. Started a game, but I don't remember it.
Weeden— 22nd overall pick.
Hoyer— FA, meh
Campbell — Meh
Shaw— UDFA, meh
Manziel — 22nd overall. Not there now.
Davis — Meh
McCown— Meh.
24 QBs in 16 years. We had 13 in our roughest 16 year stretch. We're probably about even on first round busts, or just bad picks overall as most of theirs came from FA or trades. Still... I'm not seeing our worst 16 years being so even with theirs. In our worst 16 years, we had 4 head coaches (Shula, Coslet, LeBeau, Marvin). In theirs, 9.
If you're just looking at 10 years, it's still 17-12 on QBs and 3 (Shula, Coslet, Lebeau) to 5 on head coaches (7 if you look at 2014-2004 instead of 2015-2005).
But those are numbers. Even if you put those aside, I do not see where Cleveland is making any growth. Maybe it's because I've got rose colored glasses, but outside of the first few years after Sam, I thought we were moving in the right direction. We still stunk a lot, but we had some things we were doing right. Looking at the Browns in few year increments, or over the long-term, I just don't really see anything positive.
Our dark age didn't last 16 years though. It lasted 12. So you're including 4 years of Marv's tenure when we're talking about how bad the Bengals were before Marv.
Are the Browns really that much worse for having 5 more starting QBs and 1 more HC in a 10 year stretch? (Wyche was fired after 1991 so I include him because 1991 was the beginning of the bad stretch) Especially when many of these QBs only started a game or 2? It just seems silly to me. We all watched the Bengals in the 90's and they were every bit as dysfunctional as any team in NFL history, including these Browns.
You say you don't see any growth, but I didn't see any growth from the Bengals until they hired Marvin. I had a really good feeling about Marv when we hired him. I also felt better about Palmer than any QB we'd drafted. Chad and several young players showed promise.
I'd say Browns fans probably feel the same way about Hue. Carson Wentz looks like a solid prospect. RGIII is the most promising vet they've had in years and could probably play the Kitna role. They have some solid young players, especially if Gordon continues to keep his nose clean.
I'll end by saying this. Everyone trashes the Browns for not keeping HC's long enough, but which ones really deserved 5 years? When we hired Marvin, he turned 2-14 into 8-8. Almost immediately, you could feel the difference. Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel are the only guys who coached the Browns to winning records. Davis had a solid start (16-16) but followed it by going 8-19 over the next 2 seasons. Crennel was terrible for 2 years (10-22), had a fluke 10-6 season, then followed it with a 4-12 season. They deserved to be fired. They all have, really.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Here's the thing. Say Hue stays. Say the Bengals get riddled with injuries or flake out and Marvin is canned. Does his boy Hue get the job, or does Mikey just go in the complete opposite direction and hire who he wants? Meanwhile, instead of the hottest coordinator in the NFL, Hue is part of a sinking ship coaching staff. You can't blame him for taking the job but at the same time, if Mikey isn't sold on the Marvin Lewis regime, it was fair to proceed with caution.
In hindsight, I'll end up betting that the next Bengals head coach, whoever and whenever it is, won't be as good as Hue Jackson.
(04-11-2016, 12:08 PM)fullonbehavior Wrote: Anyone who thinks Hue will be back in Cincinnati while Mike Brown is still alive is crazy. Hue could have taken a job with ANY of the other teams in the league and been welcomed back. Mike Brown HATES the Cleveland Browns. As much as MB probably loves Hue, taking a job with the Browns was probably seen as the biggest betrayal to the Brown family possible.
I'm trying to think of a player or coach that left the Bengals for the Browns and came back, but I'm drawing a blank.
I'm sure it's happened at some point, but I can't think of any examples.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Mike Sheppard worked for the Browns before the Bengals hired him. I don't think Hue will be barred forever from the bengals just because he left to work for the Browns. If Hue had left in a lateral move to be their OC I could see MB being mad, but I don't think MB blames hue at all for leaving to take a HC position.
(04-11-2016, 12:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Our dark age didn't last 16 years though. It lasted 12. So you're including 4 years of Marv's tenure when we're talking about how bad the Bengals were before Marv.
Are the Browns really that much worse for having 5 more starting QBs and 1 more HC in a 10 year stretch? (Wyche was fired after 1991 so I include him because 1991 was the beginning of the bad stretch) Especially when many of these QBs only started a game or 2? It just seems silly to me. We all watched the Bengals in the 90's and they were every bit as dysfunctional as any team in NFL history, including these Browns.
You say you don't see any growth, but I didn't see any growth from the Bengals until they hired Marvin. I had a really good feeling about Marv when we hired him. I also felt better about Palmer than any QB we'd drafted. Chad and several young players showed promise.
I'd say Browns fans probably feel the same way about Hue. Carson Wentz looks like a solid prospect. RGIII is the most promising vet they've had in years and could probably play the Kitna role. They have some solid young players, especially if Gordon continues to keep his nose clean.
I'll end by saying this. Everyone trashes the Browns for not keeping HC's long enough, but which ones really deserved 5 years? When we hired Marvin, he turned 2-14 into 8-8. Almost immediately, you could feel the difference. Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel are the only guys who coached the Browns to winning records. Davis had a solid start (16-16) but followed it by going 8-19 over the next 2 seasons. Crennel was terrible for 2 years (10-22), had a fluke 10-6 season, then followed it with a 4-12 season. They deserved to be fired. They all have, really.
Chad and Carson were pre-Lewis. So was the most contributors of the 2005 team. Carson, Chad, TJ, Willie, Braham, Levi, Rudi. All those pieces were in place. Odell and Chris were the only contributors that year I can think of that Marvin drafted. To me, the organization was already doing things right 4-5 years before Marvin was doing anything.
2001 was really a good starting point. We started drafting well, we started getting some decent FAs. I think the biggest contributor to that was a couple years earlier when we hired Duke Tobin, but that didn't show up for a while. Not until Marvin was already in place as head coach. Honestly I think with Tobin and staff doing things a lot better, most coaches would have had similar success to Marvin.
And that's the problem with the Browns. I can't say what coach deserved 5 years. None of them have had a situation like Marvin walked into, one where scouting and drafting were improving to the point we were drafting quality players and there was already a plan in place. The coaches and QBs of the Browns reflect the institutional problem. You had Farmer and Haslam for two years, Lombardi and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and the previous owner for two years, who also had Savage and another guy. Four or five general managers, two owners. There's a lot of different directions to build a team around.
Marvin Lewis drafted Carson Palmer. He also drafted Eric Steinbach, Madieu Williams, Odell Thurman, Chris Henry, Johnathan Joseph, Andrew Whitworth, Domata Peko and Leon Hall. All were key contributors to the first wave of competitive Marvin teams.
(04-11-2016, 01:04 PM)Benton Wrote: Chad and Carson were pre-Lewis. So was the most contributors of the 2005 team.
Carson was not pre-Lewis, and neither were almost all of the players on the '05 team that finally made the playoffs.
The '05 offense had only 4 players that started in '02 (Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, Levi Jones, Chad Johnson). TJ and Rudi were on the team, but even if you count them that is only about half of the offense (6 of 11)
The '05 defense only had TWO player who started in '02 (Justin Smith,,Brian Simmons)
It is absurd to claim that "most" of the contributors to the '05 Division title team were "pre-Marvin"
(04-11-2016, 01:09 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: Marvin Lewis drafted Carson Palmer. He also drafted Eric Steinbach, Madieu Williams, Odell Thurman, Chris Henry, Johnathan Joseph, Andrew Whitworth, Domata Peko and Leon Hall. All were key contributors to the first wave of competitive Marvin teams.
We were drafting Carson regardless of who was coach. Marvin was irrelevant in that decision.
Whitworth was drafted in 2006. So was Joseph and Peko. Hall was 07. Their contributions to 05 were understandably limited due to NCAA rules.
Steinbach was in 03, so Marvin may have had some say there. So, yeah, him and Madieu — along with the two drafted in '05 I already mentioned — may have been Marvin guys who helped contribute to the resurgence in 2005. Or the other 45-50 guys who were in place.
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