Since Gio came into the league in 2013 he is one of only 5 NFL players to have over 2000 yds rushing and 1000 receiving.

But this is a perfect example of a stat that is not as impressive as it sounds.  Although Gio deserves all the credit for doing something only 4 other players have done he really isn't in the same class as the other 4.

Here are the yards per game for Gio and the others

Le'Veon Bell.........119.0
Matt Forte............112.6
Jamaal Charles.....109.9
DeMarco Murray....105.7
Gio Bernard........... 76.4

It's impressive when you consider that he has always had to split time with another RB.

(04-16-2016, 07:36 PM)J24 Wrote: It's impressive when you consider that he has always had to split time with another RB.

It's impressive that Charles has that much considering he was out almost a whole year.

(04-16-2016, 07:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since Gio came into the league in 2013 he is one of only 5 NFL players to have over 2000 yds rushing and 1000 receiving.

But this is a perfect example of a stat that is not as impressive as it sounds.  Although Gio deserves all the credit for doing something only 4 other players have done he really isn't in the same class as the other 4.

Here are the yards per game for Gio and the others

Le'Veon Bell.........119.0
Matt Forte............112.6
Jamaal Charles.....109.9
DeMarco Murray....105.7
Gio Bernard........... 76.4

Production is production. I would assume Gio's averages are lower because he has not been hurt as much as others on the list. You get me 100 yards in one game and don't play the next, then you have averaged 100 yards per game. You get me 70 yards in 1 game and 80 yards in the next; you have averaged 75 yards per game. Which RB has helped you more?

(04-16-2016, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Production is production. I would assume Gio's averages are lower because he has not been hurt as much as others on the list. You get me 100 yards in one game and don't play the next, then you have averaged 100 yards per game. You get me 70 yards in 1 game and 80 yards in the next; you have averaged 75 yards per game. Which RB has helped you more?

Pretty sure I would still gladly take Charles over Bernard. The dude's never had a YPC under 5.0 in his career. His career YPC is 5.5...

He might fall into that HoF category where the person didn't put up the cumulative numbers, but did something so impressive that it puts them in.

RB with 5.0 or higher career YPC (min 1,000 carries):
-Jamaal Charles (5.5)
-Jim Brown (5.2)
-Joe Perry (5.0)
-Barry Sanders (5.0)

That's it.

(04-16-2016, 08:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty sure I would still gladly take Charles over Bernard. The dude's never had a YPC under 5.0 in his career. His career YPC is 5.5...

He might fall into that HoF category where the person didn't put up the cumulative numbers, but did something so impressive that it puts them in.

RB with 5.0 or higher career YPC (min 1,000 carries):
-Jamaal Charles (5.5)
-Jim Brown (5.2)
-Joe Perry (5.0)
-Barry Sanders (5.0)

That's it.

After three years of play.. not a lot of difference between Gio and Charles careers, Charles with edge overall but Gio not far behind.. lets see what Gio can do the next three years and that will be a fair comparison.  Charles is impressive but Gio could surpass him in yards and tds after six years but not YPC i would not think.  

If Charles can stay healthy over next three years and productive I think he has a good shot at HOF.

(04-16-2016, 08:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty sure I would still gladly take Charles over Bernard. The dude's never had a YPC under 5.0 in his career. His career YPC is 5.5...

He might fall into that HoF category where the person didn't put up the cumulative numbers, but did something so impressive that it puts them in.

RB with 5.0 or higher career YPC (min 1,000 carries):
-Jamaal Charles (5.5)
-Jim Brown (5.2)
-Joe Perry (5.0)
-Barry Sanders (5.0)

That's it.

You can gladly take whomever you wish.  I'll take the 24 year old RB that has missed 3 in the last 3 years over the 29 year old that has missed 13. 

(04-16-2016, 09:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote:
After three years of play.. not a lot of difference between Gio and Charles careers, Charles with edge overall but Gio not far behind.. lets see what Gio can do the next three years and that will be a fair comparison.  Charles is impressive but Gio could surpass him in yards and tds after six years but not YPC i would not think.  

If Charles can stay healthy over next three years and productive I think he has a good shot at HOF.

Year 1...
Gio: 170 carries/695 yards (4.1 YPC, 3 of 20+), 2 TD ... 56 catches/514 yards (9.2 AVG), 3 TD
Jamaal: 60 carries/357 yards (5.3 YPC, 3 of 20+), 0 TD ... 27 catches/272 yards (10.1 AVG), 1 TD

Year 2...
Gio: 168 carries/680 yards (4.0 YPC, 2 of 20+), 5 TD ... 43 catches/349 yards (8.1 AVG), 2 TD
Jamaal: 190 carries/1,120 yards (5.9 YPC, 9 of 20+), 7 TD ... 40 catches/297 yards (7.4 AVG), 1 TD

Year 3...
Gio:  157 carries/730 yards (4.7 YPC, 2 of 20+), 2 TD ... 49 catches/472 yards (9.6 AVG),  0 TD
Jamaal: 230 carries/1,467 yards (6.4 YPC, 10 of 20+), 5 TD ... 45 catches/468 yards (10.4 AVG), 3 TD ... Pro Bowl, 1st Team All-Pro


That looks like a lot of difference between Gio and Charles' first three years to me. Kind of silly to compare them. I really like Gio, but that's just goofy.

(04-16-2016, 10:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Year 1...
Gio: 170 carries/695 yards (4.1 YPC, 3 of 20+), 2 TD ... 56 catches/514 yards (9.2 AVG), 3 TD
Jamaal: 60 carries/357 yards (5.3 YPC, 3 of 20+), 0 TD ... 27 catches/272 yards (10.1 AVG), 1 TD

Year 2...
Gio: 168 carries/680 yards (4.0 YPC, 2 of 20+), 5 TD ... 43 catches/349 yards (8.1 AVG), 2 TD
Jamaal: 190 carries/1,120 yards (5.9 YPC, 9 of 20+), 7 TD ... 40 catches/297 yards (7.4 AVG), 1 TD

Year 3...
Gio:  157 carries/730 yards (4.7 YPC, 2 of 20+), 2 TD ... 49 catches/472 yards (9.6 AVG),  0 TD
Jamaal: 230 carries/1,467 yards (6.4 YPC, 10 of 20+), 5 TD ... 45 catches/468 yards (10.4 AVG), 3 TD ... Pro Bowl, 1st Team All-Pro


That looks like a lot of difference between Gio and Charles' first three years to me. Kind of silly to compare them. I really like Gio, but that's just goofy.

What is silly is that you get bent out of shape when I make a reasonable statement.   As I stated outside of YPC which I stated Charles is clear edge... there is not a lot of difference between the two players after three seasons.

Total yards  3,981 for Charles to 3,440,  Avg per year:  Charles 1,327 to Gio 1,147, Carries  Gio 495 to 480, Catches  Gio 148 to 112 for Charles TDs-  Charles 17 to Gio 14.  So Charles has edge in yards, slight edge in TDs, and Gio has edge in receptions.  This does not look like a landslide victory that you seemed to bent on outside of YPC which I gave him.

and I am going to make a bold prediction that after season 4, Gio will have more of every category except for YPC... would you like to take that bet ??  I am confident that Gio will stay much more healthy than Charles since Charles only played a couple games in season 4 but if Charles had just a great advantage after 3 years as you have so strongly defended how in the world could poor Gio over take him after 4 seasons even with a injury.. 

(04-16-2016, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You can gladly take whomever you wish.  I'll take the 24 year old RB that has missed 3 in the last 3 years over the 29 year old that has missed 13. 

I wasn't talking of who I would want in the future, because yeah, Charles will be playing his age 29 season in 2016. I was just saying if knowing what you know right now, you could choose a player to have from 2013-2015 (the window that was talked about at the beginning of the thread), I would have chosen Charles over Bernard.

Charles' 2013 season alone probably takes the Bengals to the SB that year.

Charles' 2014 season combined with Hill's 2014 season would make the loss of all the Bengals' passcatchers much much less important with two RBs with 1,000+ yards at 5.0 YPC or better. Dalton might cruise through the playoffs that year on like.. 10 pass attempts per game. Lol

(04-17-2016, 12:18 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: What is silly is that you get bent out of shape when I make a reasonable statement.   As I stated outside of YPC which I stated Charles is clear edge... there is not a lot of difference between the two players after three seasons.

Total yards  3,981 for Charles to 3,440,  Avg per year:  Charles 1,327 to Gio 1,147, Carries  Gio 495 to 480, Catches  Gio 148 to 112 for Charles TDs-  Charles 17 to Gio 14.  So Charles has edge in yards, slight edge in TDs, and Gio has edge in receptions.  This does not look like a landslide victory that you seemed to bent on outside of YPC which I gave him.

and I am going to make a bold prediction that after season 4, Gio will have more of every category except for YPC... would you like to take that bet ??  I am confident that Gio will stay much more healthy than Charles since Charles only played a couple games in season 4 but if Charles had just a great advantage after 3 years as you have so strongly defended how in the world could poor Gio over take him after 4 seasons even with a injury.. 

Not bent out of shape, just thought it was silly. Charles had basically a non-existant rookie season as a 3rd round pick. Gio got much more chance early on as a real early 2nd round pick. Once he got a chance he kept getting better and better.

By his third year, he finished 2nd in the NFL in rushing yards, a Pro Bowler, and an All-Pro.

I wasn't focusing on the YPC that much, but the fact that if you look at it by year rather than as an amassed whole, their careers have been very different. We'll ignore YPC, TD, everything else besides total yards since that's what you're focusing on.

Year 1
Gio: 1,209
Charles: 629

Year 2
Gio: 1,029
Charles: 1,417

Year 3
Gio: 1,202
Charles: 1,935

Gio has been a very consistent good from day 1, while Charles had a very small first year. After that first year though, Charles turned it up to 11 and begun blowing Gio out of the water. That's why the total and to average it out is a bit meh to use to say they have had similar careers to start.

Mike Leake had a better ERA his rookie season than Clayton Kershaw did, but after that Kershaw blew him out of the water. Pretty much the same deal here.

Are we really comparing Gio to a 4x Pro Bowler and 2x first team All-Pro?

Gio may have a slight edge as a receiver, but as a runner it's not close. Just since 2013, Charles has 579 more rush yards despite playing in 10 fewer games than Gio. He also has a sizable edge in YPC during that time (5.0 to 4.3). Honestly, we're comparing a (very good) role player to someone an offense was built around. Charles has essentially been KC's AJ Green. Gio is closer to Danny Woodhead than Jamaal Charles.

(04-16-2016, 08:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty sure I would still gladly take Charles over Bernard. The dude's never had a YPC under 5.0 in his career. His career YPC is 5.5...

He might fall into that HoF category where the person didn't put up the cumulative numbers, but did something so impressive that it puts them in.

RB with 5.0 or higher career YPC (min 1,000 carries):
-Jamaal Charles (5.5)
-Jim Brown (5.2)
-Joe Perry (5.0)
-Barry Sanders (5.0)

That's it.

Jamaal Charles is possibly the most underrated player in the league.


-Since 2010 he is the only player in the league to have 3 seasons with at least 1700 yards from scrimmage.

-Despite despite missing 13 games over the last 3 seasons Charles still scored more tds than any player in the league over that span (38). Marshawn Lynch, Antonio Brown, and Brandon Marshall are tied for second with 34, and they have all played many more games than Charles.

Funny how folks kinda gloss over missing 13 games in 3 years. There is no doubt that Charles has had a terrific career, but he is quickly closing in on 30 and may be at the end of his career. Gio is the better option at this time.

(04-17-2016, 11:02 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Are we really comparing Gio to a 4x Pro Bowler and 2x first team All-Pro?

Gio may have a slight edge as a receiver, but as a runner it's not close. Just since 2013, Charles has 579 more rush yards despite playing in 10 fewer games than Gio. He also has a sizable edge in YPC during that time (5.0 to 4.3). Honestly, we're comparing a (very good) role player to someone an offense was built around. Charles has essentially been KC's AJ Green. Gio is closer to Danny Woodhead than Jamaal Charles.

I was comparing after three overall seasons.... and lets give Gio credit also.. if he would average the 1,147 he has averaged for the past three years in overall yards for 8 seasons he would have 9,176 which would be double what Woodhead has averaged in 8 seasons so far.

I don;t think it is out of the realm that in 8 years Gio is just below the level of Charles.. I feel that is what he is after 3 years when you compare the two... also injuries are part of a reflection and evaluation of a career... Charles has been hurt by that so if Gio stays healthy and continues to put up 1,200 seasons he will have a very good career.

(04-16-2016, 07:36 PM)J24 Wrote: It's impressive when you consider that he has always had to split time with another RB.

Agree.

(04-17-2016, 11:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Funny how folks kinda gloss over missing 13 games in 3 years. There is no doubt that Charles has had a terrific career, but he is quickly closing in on 30 and may be at the end of his career. Gio is the better option at this time.

For the second time, this is not a post about who is a better option at this time. This is a thread/conversation is about the past.

(04-17-2016, 11:54 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I was comparing after three overall seasons.... and lets give Gio credit also.. if he would average the 1,147 he has averaged for the past three years in overall yards for 8 seasons he would have 9,176 which would be double what Woodhead has averaged in 8 seasons so far.

I don;t think it is out of the realm that in 8 years Gio is just below the level of Charles.. I feel that is what he is after 3 years when you compare the two... also injuries are part of a reflection and evaluation of a career... Charles has been hurt by that so if Gio stays healthy and continues to put up 1,200 seasons he will have a very good career.

You're arguing for just only accumulation while everyone else is factoring in dominance as well. Saying Gio and Charles will have the same level of careers just because of accumulation numbers is like saying Jim Brown and Frank Gore will have the same levels of careers because Gore only has 272 less rushing yards.

Generally when you find yourself against me, Shake, and Fred all agreeing, you know there must really something to it. Lol

(04-17-2016, 11:54 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I was comparing after three overall seasons.... and lets give Gio credit also.. if he would average the 1,147 he has averaged for the past three years in overall yards for 8 seasons he would have 9,176 which would be double what Woodhead has averaged in 8 seasons so far.

I don;t think it is out of the realm that in 8 years Gio is just below the level of Charles.. I feel that is what he is after 3 years when you compare the two... also injuries are part of a reflection and evaluation of a career... Charles has been hurt by that so if Gio stays healthy and continues to put up 1,200 seasons he will have a very good career.

Sorry, I thought we were comparing these players since Gio came into the league - and since that point - Woodhead has had almost 1100 yards from scrimmage in both of his healthy seasons. Very Gio-like.

If we're comparing careers, then Charles still smokes Gio, when you actually use context and look at things with some perspective.

Charles- averaged 1207 total yards and 7.8 TDs
Gio- averaged 1147 yards and 5.7 TDs

Sure, it looks similar on the surface...until you actually stop and think. Charles didn't get as much PT as Gio as a rookie. He's also missed an entire season (2011) and 75% of another (2015). When you look at their averages, that's when the difference becomes much more clear:

Charles- 96.7 yards and 0.62 TDs per game
Gio- 76.4 yards and 0.38 TDs per game

And that's still including the rookie season where Charles didn't play as much as Gio. Then of course you still have the huge advantage in YPC for Charles (5.5 to 4.3 for their careers). Like I said, Charles has been the centerpiece for the Chiefs, similar to how AJ Green is our centerpiece. Gio is a role player. Looking at all of this and the accolades (again, Charles is a 4x Pro Bowler and 2x first team All-Pro), I'd say there's a pretty big gap between the two.

No one outside of Bengals fans wearing orange shades is going to suggest they're on the same level. Gio is a really good player and we should probably just leave it at that. Comparing him to Charles is similar to comparing Marvin Jones to Julio Jones.

(04-17-2016, 02:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: For the second time, this is not a post about who is a better option at this time. This is a thread/conversation is about the past.



You're arguing for just only accumulation while everyone else is factoring in dominance as well. Saying Gio and Charles will have the same level of careers just because of accumulation numbers is like saying Jim Brown and Frank Gore will have the same levels of careers because Gore only has 272 less rushing yards.

Generally when you find yourself against me, Shake, and Fred all agreeing, you know there must really something to it. Lol

Your funny.. trying to compare Charles to Brown.... just probably the greatest RB ever  Charles is not even close to Brown to try a comparison.. ... As I stated Charles has had a very fine  career which you seem to have looked past but if Gio continues on the level he is on, he will have a very good career himself... Are you implying the Gio if he has 10,000 total yards in his first 8 seasons the level of accumulation means very little ??  

Finally I do believe Gio possesses the ability to have even better numbers so only time will tell but after three years he has established himself as a very good back and can get better.....   Well I think I have bantered with you enough on this one.. Who Dey

(04-17-2016, 02:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: For the second time, this is not a post about who is a better option at this time. This is a thread/conversation is about the past.

For the third time it's actually a thread about the last 3 years and Gio and Charles have very similar production during that  time. 5 years ago has less to do with the discussion than next year 

(04-17-2016, 08:51 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Your funny.. trying to compare Charles to Brown.... just probably the greatest RB ever  Charles is not even close to Brown to try a comparison.. ... As I stated Charles has had a very fine  career which you seem to have looked past but if Gio continues on the level he is on, he will have a very good career himself... Are you implying the Gio if he has 10,000 total yards in his first 8 seasons the level of accumulation means very little ??  

Finally I do believe Gio possesses the ability to have even better numbers so only time will tell but after three years he has established himself as a very good back and can get better.....   Well I think I have bantered with you enough on this one.. Who Dey

Actually Charles is one of the most dynamic runners in NFL history.... It would
Be fair to compare him.

That would be like saying you can't compare Calvin Johnson to jerry rice. When they are both some of the best wide receivers to play the game. If Jamal Charles can play at the level he does in a day in age where it is routine for defensive players to run 4.5's at 250 lb- pretty sure he could have played when the biggest guy on a field was 250 and athleticism wasn't even close.

Long story short- Charles may have (more likely would have) accumulated even more yards in a shorter time in the brown era