Sure glad we didn't cut bait on Illoka or Williams after not doing anything their rookie years.

(06-03-2016, 12:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: Sure glad we didn't cut bait on Illoka or Williams after not doing anything their rookie years.

True that.

(06-03-2016, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The extra picks effect the entire draft.  You can't just isolate the comp picks and say they are a waste because we might have taken different players at different slots if we did not have the extra picks.

I think the point he was trying to make is that the Bengals won't sign a "regular" free agent because it will subtract from the ability to get comp picks.

Would this team sign different guys if none of the free agent pickups counted against the loses?  I think they would.  The Bengals used to wait around for late free agents or guys that got cut, now they can give a tangible excuse as to why - they don't want to lose any comp picks.

(06-03-2016, 01:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I think the point he was trying to make is that the Bengals won't sign a "regular" free agent because it will subtract from the ability to get comp picks.

Would this team sign different guys if none of the free agent pickups counted against the loses?  I think they would.  The Bengals used to wait around for late free agents or guys that got cut, now they can give a tangible excuse as to why - they don't want to lose any comp picks.

I don't think comp picks make a huge difference in who they sign.  And even when they have signed some bigger name free agents they have flopped just as often as the draft picks.  The biggest difference is that rookies are much cheaper than free agents.

(06-03-2016, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The extra picks effect the entire draft.  You can't just isolate the comp picks and say they are a waste because we might have taken different players at different slots if we did not have the extra picks.

Fred makes a good point. For instance we take Gee with our 3rd Comp in 2010 and we take Geno Atkins with our 4th rounder.

If we don't have that comp and Gee is still available at our pick in RD 4; who do we take?

(06-02-2016, 11:11 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Just finished reading the new Hobson article on Nick Vigil and almost every linebacker that has a chance of making the roster is mentioned except Dawson. Only mentions Rey and Vigil as WLB while Tez is out. Does Dawson make the team this year?

I'm pretty sure he's making the team this year, to think otherwise is ridiculous. He was a 3rd round rookie last year, so expect to see him see more action this year especially with Burfict out, both Rey's limited abilities and the fact that Dansby is probably just a 1 year rental.

(06-03-2016, 02:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think comp picks make a huge difference in who they sign.  And even when they have signed some bigger name free agents they have flopped just as often as the draft picks.  The biggest difference is that rookies are much cheaper than free agents.

I think it makes a huge difference.  This team generally won't sign a free agent now unless they are cut by their own team.

Granted, we aren't in a position where we need to build the roster and get a bunch of starters, but you know full well that this team wasn't going to sign anyone that would count against the comps for next year.

(06-03-2016, 02:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Fred makes a good point. For instance we take Gee with our 3rd Comp in 2010 and we take Geno Atkins with our 4th rounder.

If we don't have that comp and Gee is still available at our pick in RD 4; who do we take?

I can kinda see what you two are getting at, but saying "if we don't constantly draft crappy players with our compensatory picks, we won't be able to draft decent players later" seems like more a knock on the Bengals FO than a good reason of why you should keep trying to horde comp picks at the cost of making your team better.

Since 2012 (they didn't know they'd be in the playoffs in 2011) to 2015 (can't judge the 2016 picks yet), rather than try to get some real FA help and win a SB (SEA, NE, DEN), they horded comp picks to get:  Reid Fragel, TJ Johnson, Marquis Flowers, Lavelle Westbrooks, Paul Dawson, and Marcus Hardison.

Those 6 have combined for a grand total of 1 game started. 3 of them didn't even/have yet to play in a game with the Bengals.


- - - - - - - - -

All the Bengals comp picks in the world and even combined they'd be vastly outproduced by a single legit FA signing. Maybe then the Bengals would take that extra step in the postseason?

I mean, Hobson had almost an entire article about McCarron while we've had little to no talk about Dalton since his injury or anything like that. I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

I like Dawson more than Vigil. And it's not even close.

It's an article, Dawson will make the team. There's not a single doubt in my mind.

I see Dawson as a two-down MIKE or a SAM. He's instinctual and can play the run well.

The reality is we may not see much from either Dawson or Vigil until 2017 when Dansby becomes a FA or 2018 when possibly Maualuga becomes a FA.

I think dawson has potential to be better then maualuga and vincent rey,they just dont trust rookies thats why He got no time. Burfict was also slow,and Im pretty sure maualuga is too. Plus dawson has gained alot of muscle this offseason. I think He sticks,as for flowers i think His time is up and just a training camp body or insurance policy,Hes been too injury prone. I think theyll keep 6 linebackers.

(06-03-2016, 12:22 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty positive that Dawson makes the roster. They generally don't cut 3rd round picks after just one year.

That said, certainly says something when everyone was in the exact same hype/fluff mode on Dawson last year as they have been on Vigil this year (same round even), and yet now he's not even in the conversation one year later.

And before the Dawson hype-train, it was the Sean Porter hype-train. It's a big reason why I am expecting absolutely nothing from Vigil despite the Bengals PR arm's best efforts.

I think there's a big difference in the hype train with Vigil.   With Dawson it was only what draftniks, Lapham and the coaches said before OTAs.   From OTAs on the coaches said nothing about Dawson and the players (not Burfict) gave him polite lip service - all about how he played in college.   Same thing with Porter and Muckleroy. 

The coaches have been uncharacteristically effusive about Vigil - so far - and Burfict has been effusive about him.

So I think there is a difference in the level and source of hype. 

The three players the coaches and players have talked up have been Vigil, WJ3 and Boyd.  Hopefully when camp starts they'll start talking up Billings.

Even with Briscoe the coaches weren't all that verbal.  Consequently he ended up on the practice squad.

The only real hype train fiasco was with Binns.   That was embarrassing.

(06-03-2016, 03:35 PM)3wt Wrote: The only real hype train fiasco was with Binns.   That was embarrassing.

He may have been Fitzgerald in practice, but couldn't translate it to game day. I have seen it in coaching that some people are practice all stars but can't translate it to real competition performance. It is very frustrating for a coach as many times practice is all you have to go off of from young guys. I wouldn't call it embarrassing just a let down more than anything.

The James Wright hype train is ridiculous too.

Remember Dawson's scouting report? He's one of those players who looks bad in practices but turns it on in actual play. Alas Marvin is one of those coaches who thinks players need to practice well to get playtime. See how these two conditions interlock?

(06-03-2016, 05:27 PM)Joelist Wrote: Remember Dawson's scouting report? He's one of those players who looks bad in practices but turns it on in actual play. Alas Marvin is one of those coaches who thinks players need to practice well to get playtime. See how these two conditions interlock?

So, why even bother drafting a guy, when his personality is not a good fit with your team's particular coaching style?

(06-03-2016, 02:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think comp picks make a huge difference in who they sign.  And even when they have signed some bigger name free agents they have flopped just as often as the draft picks.  The biggest difference is that rookies are much cheaper than free agents.

and allows you to pay your own stars what they are worth instead of maybe having to low ball and watch them walk.

You cant pay everyone you cant have a 53 man roster of people on 2nd deals.  unless they are all bad and accepting vet min

players on rookie contracts is like the potatoes of the team compare to the steaks of the big $$$ stars...

you need them both to make it all work.    And when you are a good team Top 5 scoring D  its hard for young guys to get playing time cause the vets are holding it down...

I guess if people really want to see our rookies contribute more year 1 we have to go back to being a bottom feeder desperate for talent...

We are not that team anymore. so the situation has changed and the need for instant impact rookies has changed.

(06-03-2016, 05:35 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: and allows you to pay your own stars what they are worth instead of maybe having to low ball and watch them walk.

You cant pay everyone you cant have a 53 man roster of people on 2nd deals.  unless they are all bad and accepting vet min

players on rookie contracts is like the potatoes of the team compare to the steaks of the big $$$ stars...

you need them both to make it all work.    And when you are a good team Top 5 scoring D  its hard for young guys to get playing time cause the vets are holding it down...

I guess if people really want to see our rookies contribute more year 1 we have to go back to being a bottom feeder desperate for talent...

We are not that team anymore. so the situation has changed and the need for instant impact rookies has changed.

Which is paying off well, when you look at the drafting and development of players like Iloka, Williams, and even Dunlap. 

(06-03-2016, 05:27 PM)Joelist Wrote: Remember Dawson's scouting report? He's one of those players who looks bad in practices but turns it on in actual play. Alas Marvin is one of those coaches who thinks players need to practice well to get playtime. See how these two conditions interlock?

Agree with this.  If the vet in front of Burfict hadn't got hurt he may have taken a while to play with the ones - and they liked him. 

Hobson says Dawson played well when he was in the few game snaps he played, but he never seemed to play more than 2-3 consecutive downs and he was gone.   I don't know if that was because the Bengals had vets they'd rather play (Vinny) or whether the coaches - despite what Hobson says - thought he was not playing well.   A guy like that needs game snaps to establish himself.

So who knows.  I have to think that Guenther is smart enough to know what a player's true capabilities are and will stand on the table for him.   After all he did that in order to get him drafted.

(06-03-2016, 12:22 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty positive that Dawson makes the roster. They generally don't cut 3rd round picks after just one year.

That said, certainly says something when everyone was in the exact same hype/fluff mode on Dawson last year as they have been on Vigil this year (same round even), and yet now he's not even in the conversation one year later.

And before the Dawson hype-train, it was the Sean Porter hype-train. It's a big reason why I am expecting absolutely nothing from Vigil despite the Bengals PR arm's best efforts.

I've seen other teams cut bait on 3rd rounders after one year since implementation of the rookie wage scale, but the Bengals obviously haven't. 

As for the hype train's, I rarely buy in until they show something on the field. 90% of these players that Hobspin hypes up during OTA's & TC wind up doing nothing to help the cause.

(06-03-2016, 04:18 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Jesus... didn't realize he ran 4.93 at 235 lbs. That's downright awful, considering Whitworth ran a 5.15 at 334 lbs.

Side note: Vigil doesn't seem like the answer to speed. He ran a 4.72... AKA 0.01 second slower than 277 lb Carlos Dunlap.

Well Burfict did run a 5.09 at the combine and that's a big part of why he slipped out of the draft. Maybe that made the coaches worry less about speed. That said, Burfict was in terrible shape and had some sort of injury if I'm remembering correctly.

(06-03-2016, 11:24 AM)jj22 Wrote: It's not our 3rd round curse, it's our comp pick curse, which is why this model model, we can't sign free agents because of comp picks, is lame. Look back at those picks..... We were better off signing free agents that could actually play.

Not sure what to think about Dawson, but it does seem like he's all but forgotten. Drafting a LB in round 3 again (when most of our success comes from udfa lb's) may be reflective of the failed pick.

It's funny, the "model model" article was suggesting that the Bengals model themselves after the Steelers, but the Steelers don't hoard compensatory picks. That's the Ravens. The difference is that the Ravens have signed or traded for some pretty good players over recent years (Boldin, Dumervil, Daryl Smith, Mike Wallace, Steve Smith, etc).

The model model article would've been more accurate if Hobs said that the Bengals hoard comp picks like the Ravens, while avoiding free agency like the Steelers.