(06-26-2015, 04:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No foolin'.  For a team that needed a QB in 2011 and had a top 5 pick we did exceedingly well if you ask me.  The fact that the 3 QBs taken before Dalton were disgraced within 3 years and are completely irrelevant says a lot.  3 QB busts taken in the first round in a row over a span of 5 picks is pretty significant.

Seems Zampese deserves some credit here!

(06-26-2015, 04:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No foolin'.  For a team that needed a QB in 2011 and had a top 5 pick we did exceedingly well if you ask me.  The fact that the 3 QBs taken before Dalton were disgraced within 3 years and are completely irrelevant says a lot.  3 QB busts taken in the first round in a row over a span of 5 picks is pretty significant.

I go back and forth on Dalton (my opinion kind of reflects his play), but if we were all told before the 2011 draft that we could have a 2nd round QB who would accomplish the following, we all would've said "yes, please":

- career 85.2 passer rating
- stabilized the position and helped lead the team to 4 straight playoff berths
- average 3700 pass yards and 27.5 total TD's 
- low amount of fumbles for a QB
- average ranking of 18th in passer rating
- total class act and good guy

Even with the playoff losses and the slightly high amount INT's, I think we all would've wanted to snap him up. Now I'm not saying we should be content with Dalton. It's ok to want more from him, and I wouldn't keep him around if he repeats 2014. I'm just saying we could've done a lot worse. Yet people act like he's horrible. The amount of vitriol spewed at Andy Dalton just seems way over the top. It's not like he's been failing in clutch situations for 12 years. 

Dalton isn't as good as some think, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think either. He's average, which Flacco, Eli and many others have proven is good enough. It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis.

(06-24-2015, 05:16 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green Bay has Jordy Nelson too (He's just as good as Green), and Cobb (who's better than any of our WRs not named Green), and they have had Lacy tear it up the past few years. Their defense wasn't amazing, but Clay Matthews is a beast too. Denver had Demaryius Thomas (who's better than Green IMO), and Julius Thomas (who IMO is the 2nd best TE in the league), and they had Emmanuel Sanders who is better than anyone not named Green on our team. Denver also had Talib, and DeMarcus Ware who are both some of the best in their positions in the league. Denver even had one of the best OLs in the league the last few years. The Colts had Reggie Wayne who is a great WR, and they have T.Y. Hilton who is a great WR, and Fleener who is a underrated TE. The Chargers don't have a lot of elite players, but they have a lot of above average players (Allen, Gates, Woodhead, ). Rivers is IMO one of the best QBs in the league too.

Reggie Wayne is nowhere near the player he used to be. At this stage he's a WR3. Indy has better options at WR2 now (Andre Johnson), and younger WR's with more upside ( Donte Moncrief). Fleener isn't even the best TE on Indy's roster; that title would fall on Dwayne Allen. DeMarcus Ware is old and on the decline. He's still a good player, but nowhere near the elite rush OLB's at this stage of his career. Ware is bolstered by the fact that Von Miller commands double teams on the opposite side of the ball. Woodhead is a role player best suited for 3rd down duties. Julius Thomas isn't in the same league as Jimmy Graham or Gronk, and is in for a rude awakening after leaving Denver for Jacksonville. Thomas is a good player, but is a suspect blocker, and doesn't have the receiving chops of Jimmy Graham.

(06-27-2015, 12:30 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I go back and forth on Dalton (my opinion kind of reflects his play), but if we were all told before the 2011 draft that we could have a 2nd round QB who would accomplish the following, we all would've said "yes, please":

- career 85.2 passer rating
- stabilized the position and helped lead the team to 4 straight playoff berths
- average 3700 pass yards and 27.5 total TD's 
- low amount of fumbles for a QB
- average ranking of 18th in passer rating
- total class act and good guy

Even with the playoff losses and the slightly high amount INT's, I think we all would've wanted to snap him up. Now I'm not saying we should be content with Dalton. It's ok to want more from him, and I wouldn't keep him around if he repeats 2014. I'm just saying we could've done a lot worse. Yet people act like he's horrible. The amount of vitriol spewed at Andy Dalton just seems way over the top. It's not like he's been failing in clutch situations for 12 years. 

Dalton isn't as good as some think, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think either. He's average, which Flacco, Eli and many others have proven is good enough. It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis.

The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories. Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason. Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's? Nope.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

Goes to show you don't need an elite QB then.  You just need him to step up in the post season and make a FEW plays.  Unfortunately, Dalton has not done that nor have we gotten a dominant D performance which can also win you a playoff game.

(06-27-2015, 01:07 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Reggie Wayne is nowhere near the player he used to be.  At this stage he's a WR3.   Indy has better options at WR2 now (Andre Johnson), and younger WR's with more upside ( Donte Moncrief).   Fleener isn't even the best TE on Indy's roster; that title would fall on Dwayne Allen.  DeMarcus Ware is old and on the decline.  He's still a good player, but nowhere near the elite rush OLB's at this stage of his career.  Ware is bolstered by the fact that Von Miller commands double teams on the opposite side of the ball.  Woodhead is a role player best suited for 3rd down duties.  Julius Thomas isn't in the same league as Jimmy Graham or Gronk, and is in for a rude awakening after leaving Denver for Jacksonville.  Thomas is a good player, but is a suspect blocker, and doesn't have the receiving chops of Jimmy Graham.

Well I was talking about the past couple of years for Wayne. I would honestly take Thomas over Graham. I think Graham is overrated, because he's soft. Whenever I see him take a big hit he normally doesn't play the same for the rest of the game. Just look at what happened last year when we played the saints. Dre got a good hit on Graham, and Graham was hesitant the rest of the game.

It's make or break for Dalton this year, that's all there is to it.

I'll repeat what I said last year and the year before, for me this team has to make it to the AFC Championship Game or coaches are getting fired and players get replaced. Of course, this is barring injuries that the Bengals had like last year.

If Dalton, Green, Burfict, Hill, Bernard, the O-Line, the D-Line, the Secondary all stay healthy and Adkins returns to before the knee injury and this team loses again in the first round of the Play-offs, Marvin Lewis needs to be fired before they leave the stadium and the new coach can then put his team together and try. This new coach will then have three years to get to the AFC Championship game and five years to win a Super Bowl. If that doesn't happen, he is re evaluated and fired if there were no crazy circumstances.

Mike Brown has to take control and let these coaches know that they have to win and win now. I'm tired of waiting for the ever elusive Super Bowl victory. I want this team to be a contender every year like the Steelers. I want other teams afraid of the Bengals. I want other teams to know that they are going to get punched in the mouth, slapped upside the head, kicked in the balls and when they fall down, they are going to get a foot on their throat. I want other teams to bring their best every week and if they happen to win, that was their Super Bowl. We shouldn't be circling games on our calendar, every team should have the Bengals game circled.

Just get freaking tough!!!

Sorry for the rant, I just want to be number one all the freaking time and with this coaching staff and owner, I know it's never going to happen. I'll still root and cheer and support my team though, but DAMN, LET'S WIN ONE FOR NEB!!!

I just hope McCarron has a decent preseason. If he dominates the preseason and we get off to a bad start (1-3 for instance), get ready for a QB controversy. I am curious to see what the kid's got when the lights come on.

(06-27-2015, 12:30 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I go back and forth on Dalton (my opinion kind of reflects his play), but if we were all told before the 2011 draft that we could have a 2nd round QB who would accomplish the following, we all would've said "yes, please":

- career 85.2 passer rating
- stabilized the position and helped lead the team to 4 straight playoff berths
- average 3700 pass yards and 27.5 total TD's 
- low amount of fumbles for a QB
- average ranking of 18th in passer rating
- total class act and good guy

Even with the playoff losses and the slightly high amount INT's, I think we all would've wanted to snap him up. Now I'm not saying we should be content with Dalton. It's ok to want more from him, and I wouldn't keep him around if he repeats 2014. I'm just saying we could've done a lot worse. Yet people act like he's horrible. The amount of vitriol spewed at Andy Dalton just seems way over the top. It's not like he's been failing in clutch situations for 12 years. 

Dalton isn't as good as some think, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think either. He's average, which Flacco, Eli and many others have proven is good enough. It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis.

I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough? It just defies logic.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

I will agree that Flacco and Manning "elevated their play", but seriously where do you get "carried their teams"?  They had some amazing defensive efforts as well and that is what it takes to win in all....a total team effort. 

I have mentioned this before

I remember when everyone wanted to get rid of Anderson and then he had his great season of 1981.

Dalton's 4 year stats very similar to Anderson and just slightly below Carson and Boomer.

Lots of other players had bad games in all four playoff loses and last year we had too many people injured.

Need to put things together this year.

(06-27-2015, 10:27 AM)67bengals Wrote: I have mentioned this before

I remember when everyone wanted to get rid of Anderson and then he had his great season of 1981.

Dalton's 4 year stats very similar to Anderson and just slightly below Carson and Boomer.

Lots of other players had bad games in all four playoff loses and last year we had too many people injured.

Need to put things together this year.

I hope everyone is rooting for AJ to shine in the pre-season games.

I hope everyone is rooting for AD to shine as well.

I get frustration and I understand losing faith in a player.

I just don't understand hoping our starting QB stumbles so a 2nd year back up with no pre-season or regular season snaps takes over as the starter. I wanted AJ drafted and even though he was worthy of a round higher pick. I hope he becomes a HOF QB, but I will never hope he gets his shot this year because our QB failed to deliver.

I keep reading comments about AD is average at best and a few feel he is not NFL starting QB worthy. I laugh when it is pointed out in 2013 he was 8th in the NFL throwing the deep ball when some say he has a weak arm. I laugh when some pointy out one snap shot game (Cleveland) and dismiss his opposite off the chart great games entirely as it does not fit their opinion and in some cases pure hatred for AD the QB.

I am still in the fence with AD as far as moving up to being a very good NFL QB in the coming years. To anyone who says he is below average based on his experience (only 4 years) and those results factoring in all of the facts including no time to learn anything early after 2012 due to the lock out and then the injuries (yes they were brutal when your #1 all world receiver misses 6 games, #2 misses 16, TE plays 8 snaps so in essence entire year, TE Gresham also gone by playoffs and missed some games, Wright and Sanz. by playoffs.

I like our offense in 2015 and I am glad we have an experienced QB to lead them. I like the prospects our young back up may be ready for emergency situations in 2015.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

That's why I said this: "It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis."


And I actually pointed out Flacco and Eli because they're not elite. Dalton has very much been on their level in regular season. Sure those guys are clutch in the playoffs, but would they be so clutch while playing for Marvin Lewis? I seriously doubt it.

(06-27-2015, 11:20 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I just don't understand hoping our starting QB stumbles so a 2nd year back up with no pre-season or regular season snaps takes over as the starter. I wanted AJ drafted and even though he was worthy of a round higher pick. I hope he becomes a HOF QB, but I will never hope he gets his shot this year because our QB failed to deliver.

I was with you up to this point. If it actually turned out that McCarron were to be a HOF QB, then why on earth wouldn't you want this world-beater of a career to get started just as soon as possible? To spare Andy's feelings? To delay the gratification of us getting a SB win? Cripes, if AJ has that sort of talent, then I sure as hell hope Dalton is benched and the AJ MacCarron era begins pronto.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

This line of thinking does not mesh well with football schemes. If a guy is not doing his job and decides to do whatever because his narrow aspect of on field action leads him to believe the play is over some where its not can destroy a game. If you look back over our playoff games it always appears we are being simply our performed. No other way around it. That is a lack of preperation. Maybe guys should give in put during the walk through or position meetings before the game. But to go into a game like im tired of Marvin and co screams disaster for the other 10 guys.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

I think our approach to fixing problems that arise during the season defies logic.

"We just need to do the things we do better.", is Marvin's typical response to a bad situation. Honestly, with that sort of attitude, guys get complacent.

Not "We need to find a way around this problem.", or "We need to change something to fix this!"

NOPE, just "We need to do the things we do better."


I personally think by about season 3, guys figure that they just need to do stuff better, instead of finding new ways to get better, and we see guys get worse.

Marvin gives the same praise to a guy that did his job perfectly or a guy who royally messed up, so why bother doing everything perfectly if coach just treats us all the same.

I never see Marvin get in a players face... but Zim always did and I think that's why the D was so good for so long.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

I'm not sure what Marvin does that causes the team to fail every January, but I just can't view 6 similar losses as a coincidence. If I had to guess on why there is so much failure in January, here would be some of my guesses:

- Marv is too conservative - offense/defense play way too vanilla (and I'm not one of those guys that always says Marv is too conservative)
- Marv/the OC abandon the run too early
- Marvin teams always seem to lack fire (teams often take on the identity of their HC)

It also seems like this team has been drafting players who are quiet nice guys. Think Leon, AJ, Dalton, Whit, Zeitler, Gio, Geno, Dunlap, MJ, MLJ, etc etc. This entire squad is loaded with guys who fit that "quiet nice guy" mold. Then as soon as a player like Jeremy Hill opens his mouth, he gets scolded publicly by the OC. 

So IMO, scheme is partly to blame, and perhaps they aren't drafting enough fiery leader types. Or maybe the atmosphere within the organization isn't conducive to fiery leadership.

(06-28-2015, 01:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure what Marvin does that causes the team to fail every January, but I just can't view 6 similar losses as a coincidence. If I had to guess on why there is so much failure in January, here would be some of my guesses:

- Marv is too conservative - offense/defense play way too vanilla (and I'm not one of those guys that always says Marv is too conservative)
- Marv/the OC abandon the run too early
- Marvin teams always seem to lack fire (teams often take on the identity of their HC)

It also seems like this team has been drafting players who are quiet nice guys. Think Leon, AJ, Dalton, Whit, Zeitler, Gio, Geno, Dunlap, MJ, MLJ, etc etc. This entire squad is loaded with guys who fit that "quiet nice guy" mold. Then as soon as a player like Jeremy Hill opens his mouth, he gets scolded publicly by the OC. 

So IMO, scheme is partly to blame, and perhaps they aren't drafting enough fiery leader types. Or maybe the atmosphere within the organization isn't conducive to fiery leadership.

Good answer(s).  But I still wonder when the sick of it pride as a man kicks in and his team fires itself up.  This is their legacy on the line too.  Can he really be preventing his team from playing with emotion?  How are they beaten before they get started over and over again?  It's mystifying.

(06-28-2015, 01:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure what Marvin does that causes the team to fail every January, but I just can't view 6 similar losses as a coincidence. If I had to guess on why there is so much failure in January, here would be some of my guesses:

- Marv is too conservative - offense/defense play way too vanilla (and I'm not one of those guys that always says Marv is too conservative)
- Marv/the OC abandon the run too early
- Marvin teams always seem to lack fire (teams often take on the identity of their HC)

It also seems like this team has been drafting players who are quiet nice guys. Think Leon, AJ, Dalton, Whit, Zeitler, Gio, Geno, Dunlap, MJ, MLJ, etc etc. This entire squad is loaded with guys who fit that "quiet nice guy" mold. Then as soon as a player like Jeremy Hill opens his mouth, he gets scolded publicly by the OC. 

So IMO, scheme is partly to blame, and perhaps they aren't drafting enough fiery leader types. Or maybe the atmosphere within the organization isn't conducive to fiery leadership.

Yep. Add to that the pressure of consecutive playoff losses and the focus on that and it's been a recipe for disaster. It's almost like they know it's coming so they tighten up and just wait for it to happen. I've commented before the last couple playoff games that Marv, on the sidelines, looked like he was getting ready for a double root canal with no anesthesia. Well, i didn't say  exactly that. But the sentiment was that he looked tight and very unsure.

Its Dalton. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with Marvin Lewis. If you think back to 2005, we win that game if Palmer doesn't get hurt. I just honestly think if your team doesn't have confidence that the qb is gonna perform well in big moments it just deflates you. Our offense just hasn't moved the ball at all in the playoffs. Dalton has been an absolute negative in the playoffs. Theres really no point in arguing it....the numbers don't lie. Dalton has been atrocious in the playoffs. Your defense can only keep the opposing teams offense off the board for so long when your going 3 and out more so than not. I honestly think that's why they drafted OL with their first 2 picks. This is now a running team. We will run to setup the pass. If someone goes down, well, were still gonna be a running team cuz we have 2 really good backups that will step in with no problem. Were gonna use a lot of jumbo packages I would think. I do believe Dalton can succeed in a run first offense, as long as we are a dominant run team.

Anyways, regardless of what I said above, I do feel like if McCarron shows out in the preseason he should get a shot at some point in time with the 1s or during the regular season. Andy Dalton has just had way too much talent around him to be as inconsistent as he is. If McCarron earns it, give him a shot. If you go and watch McCarrons college film, its hard not to like.