(06-13-2016, 02:08 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: But did the magic ever really leave? After all, the God of Light has been resurrecting the one dude for awhile now. Maybe the gods just realized that the other gods are being active in this world again and feel a need to also be active rather than dormant. Maybe they are drawn to each other at certain times in sort of a Ragnarok/final battle kinda way.

in the books the magic of the red priest and the warlocks of quarth have been dead for a long time but since the dragons came back magic starting flowing in the world again...  fire weavers actually weaving fire.

Red Priest and their magic works

The pyromanicers magic started working which is how they got so many for the battle of blackwater bay.

So the question really is when do the warlocks factor back into play lol.

Yes magic was gone from the world for some time.

(06-13-2016, 03:26 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: ...  the whole lannister army siege  has no real purpose to add to the story line if it didn't lead to something.  In the books it did lead to something..

I think the point of that could have been nothing more than character development for Jaime and Brienne.  As far as the tv show goes, it seems to be a step backward for Jaime.

I suppose saying he died could have been misdirection to give him time to escape, but it's logically inconsistent with them disobeying a direct order from their Lord.

Also, Blackfish refused to help Sansa.  Maybe he will lead the Tully army to help now that he's lost the castle, but I just think it's a storyline they don't have time to tell.  Plus, if the Tully army aided Jon, then Littlefinger might not be needed to save the day.

(06-13-2016, 03:26 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: cant reuse all them ships if you burn them...

Actually a really good point.  Probably explains why Dany didn't torch them.

I'm thinking the masters may make landfall at the rather "bad timing" of 100k Dothraki riding up.

(06-13-2016, 03:46 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I think the point of that could have been nothing more than character development for Jaime and Brienne.  As far as the tv show goes, it seems to be a step backward for Jaime.

I suppose saying he died could have been misdirection to give him time to escape, but it's logically inconsistent with them disobeying a direct order from their Lord.

Also, Blackfish refused to help Sansa.  Maybe he will lead the Tully army to help now that he's lost the castle, but I just think it's a storyline they don't have time to tell.  Plus, if the Tully army aided Jon, then Littlefinger might not be needed to save the day.

yeah this is suppose to be the point he turns against ceresi....

it was after the siege was over while he was in the main room there...

Then it has him riding north to deal with the freys...  (in the books robs wife was with him at that time she was what they were protecting in riverrun.  a Prego queen of the north)

(06-13-2016, 03:28 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Yes magic was gone from the world for some time.

But now you're introducing a chicken/egg argument - magic just spontaneously reappeared to bring back dragons...to bring back magic to the world?

I think it's just as easy to argue the rebirth of dragons marked the beginning of the gods bringing back magic.  Isn't magic, afterall, by definition supernatural?  

And isn't it a bit coincidental that the dragons are reborn precisely when the White Walkers are a looming threat?  In Roman and Greek mythology, gods can lose power or fade from existence from lack of worship...So guess what?  The White Walkers wiping out man would then threaten the very existence of the gods, and it would seem the White Walkers do not worship any god, or probably not the ones we know of.

(06-13-2016, 03:58 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: But now you're introducing a chicken/egg argument - magic just spontaneously reappeared to bring back dragons...to bring back magic to the world?

I think it's just as easy to argue the rebirth of dragons marked the beginning of the gods bringing back magic.  Isn't magic, afterall, by definition supernatural?  

And isn't it a bit coincidental that the dragons are reborn precisely when the White Walkers are a looming threat?  In Roman and Greek mythology, gods can lose power or fade from existence from lack of worship...So guess what?  The White Walkers wiping out man would then threaten the very existence of the gods, and it would seem the White Walkers do not worship any god, or probably not the ones we know of.

I believe the gods in this book series are as powerful as the gods in real life here...  Meaning non existant other than what we give them credit for.

but using that argument the only ones that even know the white walkers are around again are the Old gods of the north.

that lady has been staring into the flames a long time and the only thing close to the white walkers she mentions is the light fighting the dark which could mean anything really.

stannis in the books though had a better plan  he was rearming the walls and all the castles to man the wall.


But those religions still existed after the dragons died out and but the magic they used.  then it started working again after the dragons were born.

If danny is connected to the Red Priestist?  why are they just now coming to her support (paid support at that)

there is direct connections made to the events all over the books.  Of course all religions will try and claim credit its what they do..

Really the only gods we know exist for sure are the old gods... we have seen him... his name is bran.

(06-13-2016, 04:11 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I believe the gods in this book series are as powerful as the gods in real life here...  Meaning non existant other than what we give them credit for.

But ALL magic didn't disappear, did it?  There is maybe more of it with the dragons coming back, but like I said what brought the dragons back, because it's a chicken/egg argument.  Priests of both the Lord of Light and the Many Face god demonstrated some degree of magic BEFORE the return of dragons.  

And the fact remains the Red Priests bringing back people from the dead, at least with Beryos(?) is purely a ritual and not a magic spell.  Mellisandre didn't really know how to do anything there, either, other than pray.

A redditor flipped the image of Sansa holding the letter and brightened it.

Spoilers below

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It's to Baelish. It says "you said you'd protect me, it's time to fulfill that promise. You command the knights of the Vale. Ride north for Winterfell. You will be rewarded".


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Looks like a game changer.

(06-14-2016, 11:20 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A redditor flipped the image of Sansa holding the letter and brightened it.

Spoilers below

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It's to Baelish. It says "you said you'd protect me, it's time to fulfill that promise. You command the knights of the Vale. Ride north for Winterfell. You will be rewarded".


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Looks like a game changer.

Think sansa knowns what he wants as a reward?

Think shes to the point she will offer her hand?

and would Balish take it? as that would bring direct conflict with the iron throne.

(06-13-2016, 04:44 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: But ALL magic didn't disappear, did it?  There is maybe more of it with the dragons coming back, but like I said what brought the dragons back, because it's a chicken/egg argument.  Priests of both the Lord of Light and the Many Face god demonstrated some degree of magic BEFORE the return of dragons.  

And the fact remains the Red Priests bringing back people from the dead, at least with Beryos(?) is purely a ritual and not a magic spell.  Mellisandre didn't really know how to do anything there, either, other than pray.

what magic did they display before hand? none I can remember.   books are pretty strong on the point of the lack of magic while the dragons where dead.

Many faced god followers don't use any magic they use poisons and mask...

(06-14-2016, 11:51 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: what magic did they display before hand? none I can remember.   books are pretty strong on the point of the lack of magic while the dragons where dead.

Many faced god followers don't use any magic  they use poisons and mask...

Well, we are sort of led to believe that the Beric Dondarrion resurrections had been going on for awhile, perhaps before the dragons came back.

Also there are the White Walkers, who are innately magical.

But I would agree that most magical stuff was gone until the dragons came back.

(06-14-2016, 11:51 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: what magic did they display before hand? none I can remember.   books are pretty strong on the point of the lack of magic while the dragons where dead.

Many faced god followers don't use any magic  they use poisons and mask...

Melissandre has been using the glamor thing for hundreds of years - not to mention just living that long is suspicious not being able to do magic and worshipping a god that supposedly doesn't exist.  The House of Black & White use the faces in a magical sort of way (not Chainsaw Massacre way) and have clearly been doing that for a while.

And there is also Beric doing resurrections for a while.  And the CoF and the Three-eyed Raven....And the White Walkers.  So it seems very obvious to me magic was never completely gone, not nearly.

Not to mention the theory that magic suddenly comes back after hundreds of years and all of a sudden all these people become powerful users despite never practicing it or even trying, really (in Dany's case). 

(06-14-2016, 02:13 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Melissandre has been using the glamor thing for hundreds of years.  The House of Black & White use the faces in a magical sort of way (not Chainsaw Massacre way) and have clearly been doing that for a while.

And there is also Beric doing resurrections for a while.  And the CoF and the Three-eyed Raven....And the White Walkers.  So it seems very obvious to me magic was never completely gone, not nearly.

Not to mention the theory that magic suddenly comes back after hundreds of years and all of a sudden all these people become powerful users despite never practicing it or even trying, really (in Dany's case). 

Beric... himself wasn't resurrected until after the dragons were born.     Agree everything north of the wall was still there but in a weakened state.  Are the white walkers planning an attack now because they are getting stronger?  what have they been doing for the last 1000s of years since the last attack lol. (the last dragons died 100 or so years ago when the story starts... So that wouldnt have been what kept the white walkers at bay... But why now is a question that I haven't found an answer too...)

The pyromancers had been practicing the same spells for years and they suddenly started working to much greater effect.  So maybe not 100% gone   but down to a tickle over instead of a river.  so to speak.

Still don't see any magic in the House of black and white.  


One thing I have been thinking about Melissandre    is she really that old? or is her bodys state a result of her use of blood magic earlier in the series.  Magic always comes with a price.

the one big example of magic like use I remember was the medicine lady when danny was prego.   

But there is a lot of the world we never see... And most is only based on characters points of view. and their views of the world.

(06-14-2016, 02:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Beric... himself wasn't resurrected until after the dragons were born.     Agree everything north of the wall was still there but in a weakened state.  Are the white walkers planning an attack now because they are getting stronger?  what have they been doing for the last 1000s of years since the last attack lol.  (the last dragons died 100 or so years ago when the story starts...   So that wouldnt have been what kept the white walkers at bay...  But why now   is a question  that I haven't found an answer too...)

The pyromancers had been practicing the same spells for years and they suddenly started working to much greater effect.  So maybe not 100% gone   but down to a tickle over instead of a river.  so to speak.

Still don't see any magic in the House of black and white.  


One thing I have been thinking about Melissandre    is she really that old? or is her bodys state a result of her use of blood magic earlier in the series.  Magic always comes with a price.

the one big example of magic like use I remember was the medicine lady when danny was prego.   

But there is a lot of the world we never see... And most is only based on characters points of view. and their views of the world.

I suspect the show latches on to some of the more magical or miraculous aspects of the story more than the books because it makes for good screen time and visual effects. I know George R. R. Martin favors more of a gutsy historical realism, a "warts-and-all" type approach, to his books. And of course, magic isn't something big in our real history.

(06-14-2016, 02:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: One thing I have been thinking about Melissandre    is she really that old? or is her bodys state a result of her use of blood magic earlier in the series.  Magic always comes with a price.


But there is a lot of the world we never see... And most is only based on characters points of view. and their views of the world.

We've been told Mellisandre is as much as 400 years old (several centuries old, according to RR as relayed thru the show runner).

You're second point is an important one.  Was magic really gone significantly, or is that the perception of the POV characters we have?

Also, as for the WW isn't this the worst winter in a long, long time?  If it didn't get cold enough to come way down, then perhaps they just stayed in very remote parts.  Plus, it's been like 1000 years - so they've been gone way longer than dragons.

Just seems silly to me, and perhaps a distinction without a difference, to say there's magic but no real gods or vice versa.  And none of that really answers my question of how, if there was no magic, did the dragons have a magical rebirth?  Through a spiritual, not magical, ritual nonetheless.

(06-14-2016, 02:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the one big example of magic like use I remember was the medicine lady when danny was prego.   

But, in the show at least, did she use magic or did she use potions?  Like the "resurrection" of Sir Strong, I'm not sure that was magic so much as science.  He's a maester, and presumably they practice science not magic.

I think, in the books maybe, Mellisandre admits at some point she practices illusions (i.e. magic, deception).  But when Jon dies, after everything else, her faith is clearly broken.  Yet in bringing Jon back, she's not really performing magic but praying.  Except she doesn't really believe in what she's praying (which is curious)!  But how can something be attributed to magic when there's nothing magical about the ritual (iffy on Jon, but with Sir Beric certainly)?

It's interesting, and I don't see a clear answer and doubt we get one.  I come down on the fence - some magic is just magic, but other "magic" has divine origins.

(06-14-2016, 03:48 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: We've been told Mellisandre is as much as 400 years old (several centuries old, according to RR as relayed thru the show runner).

You're second point is an important one.  Was magic really gone significantly, or is that the perception of the POV characters we have?

Also, as for the WW isn't this the worst winter in a long, long time?  If it didn't get cold enough to come way down, then perhaps they just stayed in very remote parts.  Plus, it's been like 1000 years - so they've been gone way longer than dragons.

Just seems silly to me, and perhaps a distinction without a difference, to say there's magic but no real gods or vice versa.  And none of that really answers my question of how, if there was no magic, did the dragons have a magical rebirth?  Through a spiritual, not magical, ritual nonetheless.

yeah its all very confusing which is why I brought it up so we can share point of views on it.    out side of the dragon eggs and fire I don't know also danny not burning is another thing as many of her kin tried it before her and died horribly.

Its possible she is Ahoz reborn... the hero of old that led the battle against the dark.

well heres hoping the last 2 episodes don't break to many hearts...

Plenty of well liked characters left to kill off. lol

(06-14-2016, 05:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: yeah its all very confusing which is why I brought it up so we can share point of views on it.    

It is.  I see pretty good arguments both for and against both sides.  But my perception is confined to the show.

I try not to project our world onto a fantasy one, even if there are clear influences of the writer.  But I think it's possible everything thought to be magic, except maybe dragons and the resurrections, could be explained by science.  Melisandre's "glamor" comes from the amulet, which could be some sort of elixir or hynoptic/hormonal thing (but that's a stretch)

And the Three-eyed Raven could just be a hippie on acid hanging out in a tree 

(06-13-2016, 03:55 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: yeah this is suppose to be the point he turns against ceresi....

it was after the siege was over while he was in the main room there...

Then it has him riding north to deal with the freys...  (in the books robs wife was with him at that time she was what they were protecting in riverrun.  a Prego queen of the north)

In the book he turned on Cersei because she was screwing several people, both male and female behind his back.  That doesn't seem to be the case on the show as they've recently re-affirmed their love for each other.  

if they're going to have Jamie turn on Cersei, my guess is it will be out of anger after she has Gregor Clegane smash Tommen's face in, thus killing their last child together.

(06-14-2016, 11:50 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Think sansa knowns what he wants as a reward?

Think shes to the point she will offer her hand?

and would Balish take it? as that would bring direct conflict with the iron throne.

I don't think Baelish is interested in her hand in marriage.  It would give away his position and compromise his alliances and cons with the crew in King's Landing.  I believe his interest is in Sansa as a puppet to cement control of 2 major houses.  His aspirations are too big for it to end with that.  

Also, does anyone ever wonder if Baelish secretly knows about R+L=J?  He clearly has some idea on the show after the scene with Sansa in the Winterfell crypts.  Perhaps his endgame has been to back Jon for the iron throne this whole time.  What better way to draw Jon into the conflict than to give his sister to the Boltons and draw him back south of the wall?