(08-21-2016, 11:11 AM)Go Cards Wrote: He scored it, he can do what he chooses. It was his moment in the sun, not theirs.

Seems he is getting more talk about it by doing nothing than if he would have spiked it and danced actually.

Exactly!  I haven't heard anybody complaining because Green and Eifert don't jitter bug after a touchdown.

Does that mean they aren't having any fun before, during, and after the touchdown????

Besides that, you have to remember there ARE fans that go to games with painted bodies and all kind of attention getting garb that probably CAN'T understand why they don't jitter bug!

There have been lots of complaints about showboating and celebrating, and comments that they can ruin a team.

Not one complaint about riding the Ickey Shuffle to the SB though.

Interesting.

(08-21-2016, 12:09 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: There have been lots of complaints about showboating and celebrating, and comments that they can ruin a team.

Not one complaint about riding the Ickey Shuffle to the SB though.

Interesting.

It is all good when the team is winning !

Ray Lewis even made people forget he was charged with murder as evidence of this. 

Does not mean it is right, it is just how todays world rolls. 

(08-21-2016, 12:09 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: There have been lots of complaints about showboating and celebrating, and comments that they can ruin a team.

Not one complaint about riding the Ickey Shuffle to the SB though.

Interesting.

Those were also the days before the excessive celebration rule.

(08-21-2016, 12:09 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: There have been lots of complaints about showboating and celebrating, and comments that they can ruin a team.

Not one complaint about riding the Ickey Shuffle to the SB though.

Interesting.

This is a false statement.  I said the Johnson Circus, which led to the Johnson/Owens Dog and Pony Show, infected the team with resentment and animosity per Whit and Peko.

The ONLY reason we know this is because two players came forward and confirmed.

From what I know about Wyche, regardless of what Brown thought, he would not have allowed the 'Shuffle' to infect HIS locker room and players.  My opinion is that Sam would have dealt with that accordingly.

It's silly that some people think celebrating a TD somehow has some kind of cancerous effect on the team. Antonio Brown celebrates all the time, so is he having some mysterious negative effect on the Stoolers? Of course not. Heck, the Steelers rub first downs in opponent's faces, probably as an intimidation thing.

That said, if Hill not dancing somehow means he's on a mission to redeem himself (which is how I took it), then I'm all for it. I have absolutely zilch against celebrating though.

Many great players from Rodgers to Watt to Brown celebrate everything from first downs to TDs. Fwiw, I loved when Hill did the shuffle. It showed appreciation for the fans and our history. Contrary to what many fans probably think, most of these young players have no knowledge of team history.

(08-21-2016, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's silly that some people think celebrating a TD somehow has some kind of cancerous effect on the team. Antonio Brown celebrates all the time, so is he having some mysterious negative effect on the Stoolers? Of course not.

That said, if Hill not dancing somehow means he's on a mission to redeem himself (which is how I took it), then I'm all for it. I have absolutely zilch against celebrating though.

Many great players from Rodgers to Watt to Brown celebrate everything from first downs to TDs. Fwiw, I loved when Hill did the shuffle. It showed appreciation for the fans and our history. Contrary to what many fans probably think, most of these young players have no knowledge of team history.

You could also tear your ACL celebrating ...   ... I wouldn't have believed this until I saw it happen

I think its a double edged sword.

Sometimes celebrating inspires the team and brings them together, sometimes you get a first down when you are down 21-0 (Cam Newton) and celebrate.. and that's just dumb.

I was mostly excited (as you were) that Hill seems to be focused on more than the celebrations now.. I still think he will celebrate plenty come regular season.

(08-21-2016, 01:33 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: This is a false statement.  I said the Johnson Circus, which led to the Johnson/Owens Dog and Pony Show, infected the team with resentment and animosity per Whit and Peko.

I don't recall Whit or Peko every saying anything like this.  They may have said something about then '09 season, but as far as I know neither of them never singled out Chad, and if they did they had no problem before '09.

Do you have any links?


Plus celebrating a td does not cause a cancer in a locker room.  A player can be a locker room cancer without ever celebrating a td, and on the other hand the most popular guy on the team could be the one that celebrates the most.

(08-21-2016, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's silly that some people think celebrating a TD somehow has some kind of cancerous effect on the team. Antonio Brown celebrates all the time, so is he having some mysterious negative effect on the Stoolers? Of course not. Heck, the Steelers rub first downs in opponent's faces, probably as an intimidation thing.

That said, if Hill not dancing somehow means he's on a mission to redeem himself (which is how I took it), then I'm all for it. I have absolutely zilch against celebrating though.

Many great players from Rodgers to Watt to Brown celebrate everything from first downs to TDs. Fwiw, I loved when Hill did the shuffle. It showed appreciation for the fans and our history. Contrary to what many fans probably think, most of these young players have no knowledge of team history.

What it comes down to is playing football should come first. When Chad was here he would be doing little bullshit celebrating after a first down, let alone a TD. Chad's number one priority eventually became to be the spotlight. Hill, on the other hand, only celebrates when he scores TDs and he is just having fun. That said, I'm fine with whatever Hill decides to do after a TD at this point as long as he keeps his nose the grindstones and makes it up to Cincy for last year.

(08-21-2016, 10:42 AM)Go Cards Wrote: It can be said that it is much easier for a WR to put up big #'s on a mediocre team.

If you are always losing and the defense plays prevent while your offense passes almost exclusively in 4th, the #'s get exaggerated. This is why mostly only winners are remembered in history. 

I like you man, but what a load of horse honkey. Chad's best season (arguably) came on an 11-5 team. He made his 6th Pro Bowl with the Bengals going 10-6 and sweeping the division. Not to mention when he put up great numbers for teams that were in playoff contention deep into the season. You can't blame Chad for the '06 debacle (that falls on Brad St Lois). He was also the biggest reason the team jumped up to 8-8 in '04.

Saying Chad "would've had a great season elsewhere if he was any good" is also foolish, as you're overlooking the fact that he was 33 and showing signs of physical decline when he left. On top of that, he had very little time to learn a complicated Pats playbook thanks to the lockout (he couldn't be traded during).

As for Ernest Givens, I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but Givens averaged 821 yards and 4.9 TDs while Chad averaged 1005 yards and 6.1 TDs. So your numbers were wrong on both counts. Not to mention Chad had 6 Pro Bowls to 2 for Givens. No comparison really.

(08-21-2016, 02:32 PM)treee Wrote: What it comes down to is playing football should come first. When Chad was here he would be doing little bullshit celebrating after a first down, let alone a TD. Chad's number one priority eventually became to be the spotlight. Hill, on the other hand, only celebrates when he scores TDs and he is just having fun. That said, I'm fine with whatever Hill decides to do after a TD at this point as long as he keeps his nose the grindstones and makes it up to Cincy for last year.

I honestly don't remember Chad celebrating much on first downs. It seems like people add things as they go along.

What actually happened:

Celebrations after TDs
A trade demand in 2008
Some sort of physical altercation at halftime of 1st playoff game
Goofy offseason antics from 08-10 (bull-riding, etc)

Rumors or made up stuff:

Celebrating 1st downs
TJ had to line him up (TJ didn't even start during Chad's best year)
He ran poor routes (yet Hue wanted him to coach WRs)
He didn't care about winning (his trade demand was because he wanted the defense addressed in FA)
etc etc

(08-21-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't recall Whit or Peko every saying anything like this.  They may have said something about then '09 season, but as far as I know neither of them never singled out Chad, and if they did they had no problem before '09.

Do you have any links?


Plus celebrating a td does not cause a cancer in a locker room.  A player can be a locker room cancer without ever celebrating a td, and on the other hand the most popular guy on the team could be the one that celebrates the most.

I don't why I am even responding and discussing with the forum 'know it all', but, no I don't have links, they both alluded to it during locker room interviews.  They didn't name names but said that the locker room and team attitude has been completely different, in a good way, since 2011. That there was no more resentment and animosity thick in the air.  

Someone here said that they had behind the scenes information that Lewis wanted Johnson gone, but Brown was holding ground until the 2010 season.

This was started by Go Cards, and he was just making an observation about how Hill could possibly have had a turn around when he fumbled the playoff victory away, maybe, just maybe, he realized that the jitter bug was making things more about him, and his dance, and possibly, possibly, in his own mind, consciously or subconsciously, thought that his focus was more on what jitter bug he was going to do, as opposed to protecting the football.

I have given every opinion I own for this thread, and I'm finished with it, we can gladly agree to disagree.

(08-21-2016, 09:56 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Plus he would had at least one good year elsewhere if he was as great as everybody claims. Chad had his day and now it is gone.

In all fairness you cite Palmer leaving as one of the reasons we got better after 2010 and he's still playing some very good football despite being 47 or so years old.  I tells ya changes were overdue, but that 2010 schedule could flatten a lot of teams and make 'em look lousy.

(08-21-2016, 09:56 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Oh and PS. The Bengals did win in 15. Just not a playoff game even if it was the closest they came since long before Chad.

Meh, you want to discuss showboating...in that 2015 playoff game Burfict and company ran into the tunnel after the interception whooping it up and holding up the "#1" sign only to eventually lose the game.  I don't think celebrating lost us that game, but Steeler fans sure like rubbing that in.  What should have been a glorious moment turns out to be a humiliating reminder that pride goeth before the fall.

Did Burfict running into the tunnel make Hill fumble and the defense collapse?  No, but if celebrations are still anathema around here we need to call those guys out like we are Chad, don't we? Has our culture changed enough? People are still criticizing us for being showboaters with no discipline who can't win a real game.

EDIT: I now see that you addressed this so I guess we are on the same page. Interestingly I recall thinking it would be just our luck if Burfict hadn't actually been downed after the INT and he voluntarily ran the wrong way for a safety. Not so, but he did manage to find another way to blow it at the end. So again, great player but undisciplined. Another decade of just throwing my hands and saying "Yep, that wasn't wise...sorry, we can't all be Steeler and Packers fans."

Then again, Aaron Rodgers started doing that "championship belt" thing during a 6-10 season and not only is he NOT a cancerous bastard, but he gets to be the next "Flo the insurance spokesperson" because of it. Meh, no fair. Ugh and Antonio Brown...he does the dumbest most exaggerated "look at me and I don't care if the defense loses 15 yards because I'm on offense) celebrations and the clip is on every sports show and the same people who think Chad was a giant embarrassment are just praising the hell out of him.

It all just seems so arbitrary on what is OK and what isn't OK. It's not winning, because Cam Newton was lambasted last year for showboating when he was legitimately the best player in the NFL at the time and undefeated for most of the season. Is it race? Well, Antonio Brown seems to get a pass. So maybe you just have to be on the Steelers or the Packers for people to find your braggadocious bs endearing?

(08-21-2016, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's silly that some people think celebrating a TD somehow has some kind of cancerous effect on the team. Antonio Brown celebrates all the time, so is he having some mysterious negative effect on the Stoolers? Of course not. Heck, the Steelers rub first downs in opponent's faces, probably as an intimidation thing.

That said, if Hill not dancing somehow means he's on a mission to redeem himself (which is how I took it), then I'm all for it. I have absolutely zilch against celebrating though.

Many great players from Rodgers to Watt to Brown celebrate everything from first downs to TDs. Fwiw, I loved when Hill did the shuffle. It showed appreciation for the fans and our history. Contrary to what many fans probably think, most of these young players have no knowledge of team history.

Notin wrong with celebrating TD's. But when you send the other team mallox the week of the game and then get shut down by the Browns. 
Then you are not backing up your mouth and need restrain yourself.
Or if you punch a coach at halftime of a playoff game you are winning because your feelings are hurt because the ball was not thrown to you as much as you believe it should have been. 

Or throw sideline tantrum. 

Then you are just an egg and are a detriment to the team. 

Do not believe Whit, Peko, and Marvin are all wrong. They seem like stand up people to me. 

(08-21-2016, 04:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In all fairness you cite Palmer leaving as one of the reasons we got better after 2010 and he's still playing some very good football despite being 47 or so years old.  I tells ya changes were overdue, but that 2010 schedule could flatten a lot of teams and make 'em look lousy.



Meh, you want to discuss showboating...in that 2015 playoff game Burfict and company ran into the tunnel after the interception whooping it up and holding up the "#1" sign only to eventually lose the game.  I don't think celebrating lost us that game, but Steeler fans sure like rubbing that in.  What should have been a glorious moment turns out to be a humiliating reminder that pride goeth before the fall.

Did Burfict running into the tunnel make Hill fumble and the defense collapse?  No, but if celebrations are still anathema around here we need to call those guys out like we are Chad, don't we?  Has our culture changed enough?  People are still criticizing us for being showboaters with no discipline who can't win a real game.

EDIT:  I now see that you addressed this so I guess we are on the same page.  Interestingly I recall thinking it would be just our luck if Burfict hadn't actually been downed after the INT and he voluntarily ran the wrong way for a safety.  Not so, but he did manage to find another way to blow it at the end.  So again, great player but undisciplined.  Another decade of just throwing my hands and saying "Yep, that wasn't wise...sorry, we can't all be Steeler and Packers fans."  

Then again, Aaron Rodgers started doing that "championship belt" thing during a 6-10 season and not only is he NOT a cancerous bastard, but he gets to be the next "Flo the insurance spokesperson" because of it.  Meh, no fair.  Ugh and Antonio Brown...he does the dumbest most exaggerated "look at me and I don't care if the defense loses 15 yards because I'm on offense) celebrations and the clip is on every sports show and the same people who think Chad was a giant embarrassment are just praising the hell out of him.  

It all just seems so arbitrary on what is OK and what isn't OK.  It's not winning, because Cam Newton was lambasted last year for showboating when he was legitimately the best player in the NFL at the time and undefeated for most of the season.  Is it race?  Well, Antonio Brown seems to get a pass.  So maybe you just have to be on the Steelers or the Packers for people to find your braggadocious bs endearing?

Agree and let me summarize by saying that I believe like the bible says.
" All is permissible but not all is beneficial."

Basically means only do what you can handle. Some can drink and still support family and do good. Yet some become drunkards and can not handle their business. 

See this as the same.Celebrate if you and your team can handle it and still still take care of your business and win. 

(08-21-2016, 06:51 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Notin wrong with celebrating TD's. But when you send the other team mallox the week of the game and then get shut down by the Browns. 
Then you are not backing up your mouth and need restrain yourself.
Or if you punch a coach at halftime of a playoff game you are winning because your feelings are hurt because the ball was not thrown to you as much as you believe it should have been. 

Or throw sideline tantrum. 

Then you are just an egg and are a detriment to the team. 

Do not believe Whit, Peko, and Marvin are all wrong. They seem like stand up people to me. 

I think Marv (and I guess Whit) grew tired of him by the end. I don't think we as fans should judge Chad's entire 10 year Bengals career on how 2-3 guys felt at the tail end of it though. Chad was without a doubt a key piece of the teams that led the Bengals out of the abyss, and for me, that outweighs a few isolated incidents and the feelings of a couple people.

As AJ Green recently said, "Chad paved the way". Sad when he can show appreciation that many of our fans lack. It seems so negative to me.

(08-21-2016, 08:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think Marv (and I guess Whit) grew tired of him by the end. I don't think we as fans should judge Chad's entire 10 year Bengals career on how 2-3 guys felt at the tail end of it though. Chad was without a doubt a key piece of the teams that led the Bengals out of the abyss, and for me, that outweighs a few isolated incidents and the feelings of a couple people.

As AJ Green recently said, "Chad paved the way". Sad when he can show appreciation that many of our fans lack. It seems so negative to me.

Oh for crying out loud!!!  Here I am breaking my own vow!

One of the things that irritate about some of us couch coaches in here, is we think we know all that goes on in the team meetings, the practices, the locker room, and even the sidelines for crying out loud.  NOBODY knows any of those things, including me.

However, I will take the teammates words when they say the air was thick with resentment and animosity because it was becoming all about Johnson instead of the Bengals!

We can debate and fantasize all we want to, blow off steam and all of that stuff that anyone feels necessary to do, but NONE of us here, with the possible exception of Owczarski, and I don't believe even he is in on every 'behind the scenes' facets described here.

We are all fans and couch coaches because we were never good enough, rich enough, or determined enough to seek the NFL as owners, GMs, HCs, coaches, trainers, right on down the line!! 

As far as I'm concerned they are all overpaid prima donnas who can't seem to manage their millions as 80% go bankrupt and/or broke within 5 years after retirement!

(You want links Toasty Gal, here you go!!!)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-in-6-nfl-players-go-bankrupt/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/2015/02/09/5-reasons-why-80-of-retired-nfl-players-go-broke/#4168b88a4e36

There  ...................  I've blown off my steam and I hope this is enough!!  

(08-21-2016, 08:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think Marv (and I guess Whit) grew tired of him by the end. I don't think we as fans should judge Chad's entire 10 year Bengals career on how 2-3 guys felt at the tail end of it though. Chad was without a doubt a key piece of the teams that led the Bengals out of the abyss, and for me, that outweighs a few isolated incidents and the feelings of a couple people.

As AJ Green recently said, "Chad paved the way". Sad when he can show appreciation that many of our fans lack. It seems so negative to me.

Supported Chad in every single game he played here. Like I have said before he brought several TD balls to my seats, cleats off his feet, and gloves. Plus shook hands before every single game for a season. 
But this was right after he fell out of graces by demanding trade. Still cool of him.

Went home hoarse after many of his games. He knows I supported him and did my part spending well over 10 thousand watching his home games while cheering him on all the way.

Still did not like his antics at times, some were cool. But then he became addicted. Most mention players that do the same ritual every time. He changed his often and this had to consume his thoughts at times during the work week. 

Plus AJ is total class and would never expect him to talk badly of anybody publicly and oubt he was a Bengals fan then and only saw the highlights. 

Said in post earlier that he and Carson paved the way to what we have now and forever will be grateful to them for that already. Holding the team hostage and demanding trades I do not forgive. Nor fighting coach during game. 

But do credit Fred for trolling this into a Chad thread. Well played. 

(08-21-2016, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's silly that some people think celebrating a TD somehow has some kind of cancerous effect on the team. Antonio Brown celebrates all the time, so is he having some mysterious negative effect on the Stoolers? Of course not. Heck, the Steelers rub first downs in opponent's faces, probably as an intimidation thing.

That said, if Hill not dancing somehow means he's on a mission to redeem himself (which is how I took it), then I'm all for it. I have absolutely zilch against celebrating though.

Many great players from Rodgers to Watt to Brown celebrate everything from first downs to TDs. Fwiw, I loved when Hill did the shuffle. It showed appreciation for the fans and our history. Contrary to what many fans probably think, most of these young players have no knowledge of team history.

Does throwing a turd into the sewers have some mysterious negative effect? No, because it's surrounded by it's brethren.

Same thing with throwing a Dbag into the Steelers. They're already Steelers, how much worse could they actually get?



 

- - - - - - - - - - - -

That said, I don't mind Hill celebrating as long as he keeps it in relative moderation. Admittedly less happy with the celebrations if you're having a terrible season like he was in 2015.

Celebration aside, he does take the attitude a bit too far sometimes...
-Don't forget about the game where the Browns beat the Bengals 24-3 and Hill's response after on if they were better than he thought was: "Oh no, not at all. They're probably worse than I thought, to be honest with you."
-Or when he did the celebration dance right in front of the Steelers player in the playoffs and almost certainly should have been flagged for it. Then doesn't hold onto the ball with two hands.

So yeah, overall don't mind some celebrating, but don't go over the top, and stay mature.

This thread is now officially over!

Confirmation for you and I Go Cards ........ we pretty much hit the nail on the head!!

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Hill-connects-the-dots/9b03995c-c2a9-48cd-862e-71295ad104f8