(09-09-2016, 05:53 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: we will see if Big Z is about the $$$$ or the team and winning... 

We have a different perspective as fans.
Big Z may consider his wife, children, family, long term financial security, physical condition,and limited career of NFL players as factors.

I think he is good and we should keep him around but Mike Brown is known for not shelling out money for Interior Olineman. That's just how he operates. Also if Westerman proves to have what it takes to play in the NFL then that unfortunately makes Z a little more expendable.

(09-09-2016, 07:56 PM)Sabretooth Wrote: We have a different perspective as fans.
Big Z may consider his wife, children, family, long term financial security, physical condition,and limited career of NFL players as factors.

Yes, well from his humble roots in Waukesha WI, in the "Northwoods",  he's likely already earned enough to sustain his family quite comfortably for the next 4 generations.  But yes, professionals who take pride in their job do want to be compensated fairly for the job skill that they perform.  He does a heck of a job, he's earned a contract worthy of his standing.

Some like to reason that Dre Kirkpatrick and Tyler Eifert are higher priorities, I beg to differ. Sure, they both have demonstrated ability worthy of their draft selection, at times both have shown greatness. But, either through injury or inexperience, one or both has yet to prove they can consistently be relied upon to perform at a 1st round selection level.

(09-09-2016, 07:56 PM)Sabretooth Wrote: We have a different perspective as fans.
Big Z may consider his wife, children, family, long term financial security, physical condition,and limited career of NFL players as factors.

As he should.  This is a business to him, the same as it is a business to the Brown family.  Each player has to do what is in the best interest of himself and his family, to set them up for as long as possible.

I think this will get done sometime in March because both sides did agree to table the talks until after the season which is positive. I think they will franchise him if they cannot get him resigned so that they can have more time to negotiate a deal. I think it would definitely be a mistake to let him walk because no matter what some people believe, he is a top guard in the league. He is arguably the most important player on the offensive line outside of Whitworth. I do like the idea of moving Westerman to center next season if need be because I am still not sold on Bodine.

What I haven't read yet are the details of these $10 million/year contracts. Signing bonus, guaranteed $ etc ?? It seems to me that the club will take a long look at re-signing Zeitler when considering the status of our OL of the future. Whit may be gone after this year, our two young tackles still light on experience, and a center that isn't exactly bowling over anyone on a regular basis.

Hum, well I've gotta different take on this. Sure the DeCastro deal set the tone and Zietler has a case for getting top tier G money, but the last time the team was in this situation with a guard it punted. Boling's contract is not top tier money and is for $26M for 5 years. That's basically half the money DeCastro got.

The Bengals wouldn't pay Eric Steinbach at the end of the 2006 season and he signed with the Browns. Steinbach apparently was looking for a deal similar to the deal signed the year before by Steve Hutchinson which was a 7 year $49M deal, which was top tier guard money and is still a decent contract for a G even 10 years later.

I'm fairly sure we drafted Westerman to make Zietler expendable.

(09-09-2016, 09:42 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: What I haven't read yet are the details of these $10 million/year contracts. Signing bonus, guaranteed $ etc ??  It seems to me that the club will take a long look at re-signing Zeitler when considering the status of our OL of the future. Whit may be gone after this year, our two young tackles still light on experience, and a center that isn't exactly bowling over anyone on a regular basis.

True, at this point everyone is only pointing to the macros of those deals, not shedding any light on the details.

(09-09-2016, 09:53 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Hum, well I've gotta different take on this. Sure the DeCastro deal set the tone and Zietler has a case for getting top tier G money, but the last time the team was in this situation with a guard it punted. Boling's contract is not top tier money and is for $26M for 5 years. That's basically half the money DeCastro got.

The Bengals wouldn't pay Eric Steinbach at the end of the 2006 season and he signed with the Browns. Steinbach apparently was looking for a deal similar to the deal signed the year before by Steve Hutchinson which was a 7 year $49M deal, which was top tier guard money and is still a decent contract for a G even 10 years later.

I'm fairly sure we drafted Westerman to make Zietler expendable.

Westerman?  Why in the heck do so many keep bringing up Westerman like he is some sort of savior?  As far as I could tell, all that he really did in the preseason was show how well he could look mediocre versus mediocre competition, at multiple positions.

(09-09-2016, 10:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: True, at this point everyone is only pointing to the macros of those deals, not shedding any light on the details.


Westerman?  Why in the heck do so many keep bringing up Westerman like he is some sort of savior?  As far as I could tell, all that he really did in the preseason was show how well he could look mediocre versus mediocre competition, at multiple positions.

Oh I've no idea if he'll actually be good enough to take the spot, but when you look at the inside OL positions it wasn't a need to draft a G for this year. I really think the Bengals saw potential in him and knew Zietler was going to be a difficult signing for 2017 and beyond.

(09-09-2016, 10:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: True, at this point everyone is only pointing to the macros of those deals, not shedding any light on the details.


Westerman?  Why in the heck do so many keep bringing up Westerman like he is some sort of savior?  As far as I could tell, all that he really did in the preseason was show how well he could look mediocre versus mediocre competition, at multiple positions.

This makes it seem like you're kinda taking it personal. The only point being made is that Westerman is the contingency plan if Z tries to take Brown for every dollar he has. Gotta look at it from a business perspective, like Brown does.

(09-09-2016, 10:19 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Oh I've no idea if he'll actually be good enough to take the spot, but when you look at the inside OL positions it wasn't a need to draft a G for this year. I really think the Bengals saw potential in him and knew Zietler was going to be a difficult signing for 2017 and beyond.

(09-09-2016, 10:20 PM)treee Wrote: This makes it seem like you're kinda taking it personal. The only point being made is that Westerman is the contingency plan if Z tries to take Brown for every dollar he has. Gotta look at it from a business perspective, like Brown does.

C'mon guys this is just another case of a bench guy that won't amount to much.  Remember that dude that looked like Will Ferrell?  You know, he was like the swiss army knife of offensive linemen.  What about the guy that was Cook's backup?  You know, the one that was supposed to take over and set the league on fire?  As far as I can see, Westerman is no different than any of the other also rans, he just happens to be lousy at more than one spot, sort of like Will Ferrell look a like.

(09-09-2016, 10:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: C'mon guys this is just another case of a bench guy that won't amount to much.  Remember that dude that looked like Will Ferrell?  You know, he was like the swiss army knife of offensive linemen.  What about the guy that was Cook's backup?  You know, the one that was supposed to take over and set the league on fire?  As far as I can see, Westerman is no different than any of the other also rans, he just happens to be lousy at more than one spot, sort of like Will Ferrell look a like.

I totally understand where you're coming from as far as the fact that he is unproven. As it stands right now he can't hold a candle to Z because he hasn't produced in an NFL offense like Z has. But what happens when Z demands big bucks? We all know how the Bengals feel about lineman who aren't offensive tackles. I hope he we keep him around but not if it means breaking the bank. From that perspective we are hoping that Westerman continues to develop well because he showed some promise this preseason.

(09-09-2016, 07:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not down on him, I think he's a good player and I say that every time, I just don't think he's a great player. If you're in the top 1/3rd of OG, that means you're in the top 20-21.


ESPN, if you look at the team rushing stats, it shows their YPC and you can order it from top to bottom.

Just because someone spent $17m/yr on Olivier Vernon, doesn't mean I want the Bengals to start paying their good-not-great players ridiculous amount of money, too.

The links I've posted here (and the other thread) show Zeitler's--and his teammates--individual ratings. To me, that speaks more to me about his individual talent than lumping him in with an underperforming tackle who we let walk (who lined up to Zeitler's immediate right) and a grossly underperforming center(that lines up to his left).  Also, our team ypc was down last year can inextricably be linked to Hill's down year.  5.1 on 223 to 3.6 on 222 really effects the team average. Also worth considering is Gio actually raised his ypc from 4.0 to 4.7 last year, but less carries at 154.

Lumping Zeitler in with Boling and the other 62 starting guards does little good unless we're willing to believe that both inside linemen flanking the center are interchangeable.  Boling isn't a right guard in our system, so I don't see the point in lumping all guards in the same bucket.  To that end, find me 10 better right guards. Heck, for arguments sake,  Let's find 20 better guards.

Point is, while the guard market has admittedly become a bit ridiculous lately, any scenario that has Zeitler leaving Cincinnati better have a fireproof answer for what else Brown is going to do with the money, other than helping Dalton afford traction.

(09-09-2016, 10:37 PM)treee Wrote: I totally understand where you're coming from as far as the fact that he is unproven. As it stands right now he can't hold a candle to Z because he hasn't produced in an NFL offense like Z has. But what happens when Z demands big bucks? We all know how the Bengals feel about lineman who aren't offensive tackles. I hope he we keep him around but not if it means breaking the bank. From that perspective we are hoping that Westerman continues to develop well because he showed some promise this preseason.

Unless the Bengals are planning on going high in the draft on another OG, or moving one of the Tackles of the future to OG, I'd say that their best bet would be to do some serious negotiating and sign Zeitler to a 5 year deal.  From what I've seen of Westerman, he's not useless, but he will need another year or two to develop.

(09-09-2016, 10:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: C'mon guys this is just another case of a bench guy that won't amount to much.  Remember that dude that looked like Will Ferrell?  You know, he was like the swiss army knife of offensive linemen.  What about the guy that was Cook's backup?  You know, the one that was supposed to take over and set the league on fire?  As far as I can see, Westerman is no different than any of the other also rans, he just happens to be lousy at more than one spot, sort of like Will Ferrell look a like.

You could very well be right. I'd like to us sign Zietler, but I also remember how it went with Steinbach.

(09-09-2016, 10:47 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You could very well be right. I'd like to us sign Zietler, but I also remember how it went with Steinbach.

Many also thought that Boling would be down the road this year, too.

(09-09-2016, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Many also thought that Boling would be down the road this year, too.

Yeah, but Boling's contract is much more team friendly. Hell it's even less than what Stienbach wanted ten years ago.

(09-09-2016, 10:44 PM)TGISunday Wrote: The links I've posted here (and the other thread) show Zeitler's--and his teammates--individual ratings. To me, that speaks more to me about his individual talent than lumping him in with an underperforming tackle who we let walk (who lined up to Zeitler's immediate right) and a grossly underperforming center(that lines up to his left).  Also, our team ypc was down last year can inextricably be linked to Hill's down year.  5.1 on 223 to 3.6 on 222 really effects the team average. Also worth considering is Gio actually raised his ypc from 4.0 to 4.7 last year, but less carries at 154.

Lumping Zeitler in with Boling and the other 62 starting guards does little good unless we're willing to believe that both inside linemen flanking the center are interchangeable.  Boling isn't a right guard in our system, so I don't see the point in lumping all guards in the same bucket.  To that end, find me 10 better right guards. Heck, for arguments sake,  Let's find 20 better guards.

Point is, while the guard market has admittedly become a bit ridiculous lately, any scenario that has Zeitler leaving Cincinnati better have a fireproof answer for what else Brown is going to do with the money, other than helping Dalton afford traction.

Burfict, Maualuga, Huber, Whitworth, Kirkpatrick, Burkhead, and Thompson are all players that realistically have extensions coming their way next year. I could definitely see Z not getting resigned if he demands a boat load.

(09-09-2016, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Unless the Bengals are planning on going high in the draft on another OG, or moving one of the Tackles of the future to OG, I'd say that their best bet would be to do some serious negotiating and sign Zeitler to a 5 year deal.  From what I've seen of Westerman, he's not useless, but he will need another year or two to develop.

Fair enough. I could see them going interior Oline next year pretty high as a security pick (2nd rd most likely). 

(09-09-2016, 10:57 PM)treee Wrote: Burfict, Maualuga, Huber, Whitworth, Kirkpatrick, Burkhead, and Thompson are all players that realistically have extensions coming their way next year. I could definitely see Z not getting resigned if he demands a boat load.

Add Eifert, Hill, etc.

But if you imagine the oldest Nfl lineman doesn't come back, and 3 of your starters are on their first contracts (expiring 1 a year), the highest paid lineman is at ~$5 million/year...and we let a very solid and dependable guard go?  

We'll just have to see in the spring, I guess.