(10-18-2016, 04:47 AM)ah5 Wrote: ^ this... dude is a rookie with no off season work, almost exactly what I expected out of him. 

Meh, he isn't a rookie.  When you use a 1st rounder on a guy in 2015 you shouldn't be expecting him to be a crap liability during his second season.

(10-17-2016, 06:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are there any instantly-IR-ed centers we can draft in 2017 to replace him?

I dunno but I'm kinda salty that Cody Whitehair is having an OROY kind of season as a Center in Chicago. He was drafted right after we took Tyler Boyd. Boyd might well be amazing someday but we need to win now. And of course, we wouldn't have needed another WR if we had just made the deal too sweat for Marvin Jones to say no. 

Spend money and we could've been a better team this year. Instead we're worse. So very, very frustrating. 

(10-18-2016, 05:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but in a cincinnati.com article about the benching, there were numerous quotes from o-linemen talking about how they struggled early. One quote from Boling was pretty interesting. He mentioned that he struggled one year and pretty much had to rough his way through the whole season. Then Paul Alexander was able to point out some things that helped him greatly after the season ended. Boling said that Alexander can't really coach guys up while the season is going.

I would be interested to know why. Seems like it'd be easy to coach a guy up and make a couple tweaks to his technique during the season, instead of letting him continually get killed through the year.

(10-18-2016, 05:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but in a cincinnati.com article about the benching, there were numerous quotes from o-linemen talking about how they struggled early. One quote from Boling was pretty interesting. He mentioned that he struggled one year and pretty much had to rough his way through the whole season. Then Paul Alexander was able to point out some things that helped him greatly after the season ended. Boling said that Alexander can't really coach guys up while the season is going.

I would be interested to know why. Seems like it'd be easy to coach a guy up and make a couple tweaks to his technique during the season, instead of letting him continually get killed through the year.

What do they do with game film? Say "Yep, you see there? You got beat. We can fix that next year, don't worry".    :jk:

(10-18-2016, 05:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but in a cincinnati.com article about the benching, there were numerous quotes from o-linemen talking about how they struggled early. One quote from Boling was pretty interesting. He mentioned that he struggled one year and pretty much had to rough his way through the whole season. Then Paul Alexander was able to point out some things that helped him greatly after the season ended. Boling said that Alexander can't really coach guys up while the season is going.

I would be interested to know why. Seems like it'd be easy to coach a guy up and make a couple tweaks to his technique during the season, instead of letting him continually get killed through the year.

I knew it !

(10-19-2016, 04:13 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: What do they do with game film? Say "Yep, you see there? You got beat. We can fix that next year, don't worry".    :jk:

What he does....is take the game film to that COOL Clinic....has guys like Mudd and Scarnecchia watch the film....give him pointers....then he comes back next year and says "I got it !" 

(10-18-2016, 05:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but in a cincinnati.com article about the benching, there were numerous quotes from o-linemen talking about how they struggled early. One quote from Boling was pretty interesting. He mentioned that he struggled one year and pretty much had to rough his way through the whole season. Then Paul Alexander was able to point out some things that helped him greatly after the season ended. Boling said that Alexander can't really coach guys up while the season is going.

I would be interested to know why. Seems like it'd be easy to coach a guy up and make a couple tweaks to his technique during the season, instead of letting him continually get killed through the year.

It's likely not just a couple tweaks. A coach can usually take care of that. 

Lap was talking about muscle memory for linemen and how easy it is to revert to old, bad habits. It's a matter of doing it over and over and over and over and over again. Not something that can just be corrected in a weeks time. Even if he does play better in a particular week, it could be messed up the next week. 

Just a matter of getting that correct muscle memory, so when things get hot and heavy, it's done right without thinking about it. 

(10-18-2016, 05:03 PM)Goalpost Wrote: The problem with Fisher is he can't settle into one position.  He has played left tackle, right tackle, fullback, tight end, and has practiced at both guard and center.  He's had a lot thrown at him.

Well, you know the Bengals.  They seem to love those Swiss Army Knife type of OLmen.

Can do a little bit of everything, but really good at nothing.

(10-18-2016, 04:36 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Keep in mind that Fisher was going to be the pick if Ced was gone in 2015. The team has said that's how much they loved Fisher.

I'd give him a shot at RT, but something is clearly up with him. You have to wonder if his injury from the preseason never fully healed. Something I'm noticing is that if our RT isn't some big mauler, they play like crap. Willie was amazing to watch, Andrew actually looked good in 2007 before turning his brain off in 2008. Andre had 2-3 good years in there as well. However, Collins struggled when he was playing 09. Roland may have been 325, but he was so tall and lanky that he didn't look like a bruiser. Now we get an athletic and finesse RT in there and he's just struggling.

Well the thing with Ogubehi is that he was never really that good. He had one really good season at Texas A&M. But started to fall off towards the end of the year. His final season/before injury he was pretty dreadful. And still is. He is a good mover and can get in the way, but he disengages blocks too easily and quickly. He also doesn't anchor and just tries to push faster defenders off the edge rather than get in their way and block. He has poor technique and outside of quick feet and being athletic there's not much to his game tape.

I'm also wondering about Fisher's injury. I would actually prefer him over Ogubehi in every facet besides quickness. Keep Fisher at RT and I think he'll have less growing pains and actually be more of a stable player.

(10-19-2016, 09:05 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Well the thing with Ogubehi is that he was never really that good. He had one really good season at Texas A&M. But started to fall off towards the end of the year. His final season/before injury he was pretty dreadful. And still is. He is a good mover and can get in the way, but he disengages blocks too easily and quickly. He also doesn't anchor and just tries to push faster defenders off the edge rather than get in their way and block. He has poor technique and outside of quick feet and being athletic there's not much to his game tape.

I'm also wondering about Fisher's injury. I would actually prefer him over Ogubehi in every facet besides quickness. Keep Fisher at RT and I think he'll have less growing pains and actually be more of a stable player.

This.

(10-19-2016, 09:05 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Well the thing with Ogubehi is that he was never really that good. He had one really good season at Texas A&M. But started to fall off towards the end of the year. His final season/before injury he was pretty dreadful. And still is. He is a good mover and can get in the way, but he disengages blocks too easily and quickly. He also doesn't anchor and just tries to push faster defenders off the edge rather than get in their way and block. He has poor technique and outside of quick feet and being athletic there's not much to his game tape.

I'm also wondering about Fisher's injury. I would actually prefer him over Ogubehi in every facet besides quickness. Keep Fisher at RT and I think he'll have less growing pains and actually be more of a stable player.

IIRC, Ogbuehi sucked at OT but was a pretty good guard for a couple of seasons when they had Joeckel and Matthews ahead of him at the tackle spots.  Perhaps if he doesn't get his shit together a RT he team could salvage some value by moving him inside if Z leaves.

(10-19-2016, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, you know the Bengals.  They seem to love those Swiss Army Knife type of OLmen.

Can do a little bit of everything, but really good at nothing.

You know when it comes to drafting OL I sometimes wonder if Alexander is trying to be too cute/clever..almost willfully trying to be different.

- He pushed for us to take a risk in in Rd1 on an injured Ced after being in love with his his 'athleticism' and 'wow' moments

- We then doubled down and take another 'athletic' guy in Fisher who does well in drills at the combine Alexander ...then moves him all around including HB

- He pushed again for us to trade up (which is a real rarity) to get Bodine who again does good in combine drills but does not seem to play with great football strength and anchor.

Jeez, I even remember the draft when we had the opportunity to get a quality OG in DeCastro and everyone said he seemed to be a sure-fire prospect and we ended up passing on him to get an average CB who took an age to start (DreK) , and then drafted Zeitler who Alexander insisted was a higher rated prospect and he would not have drafted DeCastro anyway - despite everyone else thinking different.

You know i miss the days when we did not over think the right side of the offensive line and we had 340+ slobberknockers in Bobbie Williams and Big Willie Anderson....

...yeah, they may not have been able to do a cone shuttle or a 40 yard dash fast, be 'athletic' or play 'Moonlight Sonata' but they f***ing knew how to drive block the snot out of people so that even Rudi Johnson could regularly post 1000+ yard seasons.

(10-20-2016, 01:22 PM)sonofstat Wrote: You know when it comes to drafting OL I sometimes wonder if Alexander is trying to be too cute/clever..almost willfully trying to be different.

- He pushed for us to take a risk in in Rd1 on an injured Ced after being in love with his his 'athleticism' and 'wow' moments

- We then doubled down and take another 'athletic' guy in Fisher who does well in drills at the combine Alexander ...then moves him all around including HB

- He pushed again for us to trade up (which is a real rarity) to get Bodine who again does good in combine drills but does not seem to play with great football strength and anchor.

Jeez, I even remember the draft when we had the opportunity to get a quality OG in DeCastro and everyone said he seemed to be a sure-fire prospect and we ended up passing on him to get an average CB who took an age to start (DreK) , and then drafted Zeitler who Alexander insisted was a higher rated prospect and he would not have drafted DeCastro anyway - despite everyone else thinking different.

You know i miss the days when we did not over think the right side of the offensive line and we had 340+ slobberknockers in Bobbie Williams and Big Willie Anderson....

...yeah, they may not have been able to do a cone shuttle or a 40 yard dash fast, be 'athletic' or play 'Moonlight Sonata' but they f***ing knew how to drive block the snot out of people so that even Rudi Johnson could regularly post 1000+ yard seasons.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again for good measure.  When evaluating an OL prospect, the first thing to look at is their ability to knock someone off the ball and drive them down the field.  Pass blocking ability should be a distant second priority, as pass protection is mostly technique and can be taught.  Being physically aggressive is by far the most important quality, in my opinion, when looking at offensive linemen.

(10-20-2016, 01:22 PM)sonofstat Wrote: You know when it comes to drafting OL I sometimes wonder if Alexander is trying to be too cute/clever..almost willfully trying to be different.

- He pushed for us to take a risk in in Rd1 on an injured Ced after being in love with his his 'athleticism' and 'wow' moments

- We then doubled down and take another 'athletic' guy in Fisher who does well in drills at the combine Alexander ...then moves him all around including HB

- He pushed again for us to trade up (which is a real rarity) to get Bodine who again does good in combine drills but does not seem to play with great football strength and anchor.

Jeez, I even remember the draft when we had the opportunity to get a quality OG in DeCastro and everyone said he seemed to be a sure-fire prospect and we ended up passing on him to get an average CB who took an age to start (DreK) , and then drafted Zeitler who Alexander insisted was a higher rated prospect and he would not have drafted DeCastro anyway - despite everyone else thinking different.

You know i miss the days when we did not over think the right side of the offensive line and we had 340+ slobberknockers in Bobbie Williams and Big Willie Anderson....

...yeah, they may not have been able to do a cone shuttle or a 40 yard dash fast, be 'athletic' or play 'Moonlight Sonata' but they f***ing knew how to drive block the snot out of people so that even Rudi Johnson could regularly post 1000+ yard seasons.

But is that Alexander?

A few years ago Brown said he'd turned most of those decisions over to Marvin, Duke and a couple of the Brown family members, a GM by committee. Alexander may have jumped up and down about wanting a player or not, but at the end of the day, it still falls on the GM that isn't a GM.

(10-19-2016, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, you know the Bengals.  They seem to love those Swiss Army Knife type of OLmen.

Can do a little bit of everything, but really good at nothing.

That's my impression too about Fisher Sunset.

I mean that's a good thing sometimes.  But it clearly has not worked to Fisher's benefit.  They need to know when to stop that stuff, and my guess is don't start with it.  Coach him up for the team's primary goal - Tackle.   Go Swiss on him after he's mastered his primary focus.

Because of this we have 2 rookies in their second year.

(10-20-2016, 01:46 PM)Benton Wrote: But is that Alexander?

A few years ago Brown said he'd turned most of those decisions over to Marvin, Duke and a couple of the Brown family members, a GM by committee. Alexander may have jumped up and down about wanting a player or not, but at the end of the day, it still falls on the GM that isn't a GM.

The guy has been our OL coach for 20+ years. I'm sure that on any evaluation of OL he has to be the biggest voice in the room. He's not some assistant they've just hired.

Also look again at the Og comments after they draft him. Alexander was positively drooling over him...he clearly loved him and to be fair to him he must have lobbied hard to get him . I don't knock him for that , but I do wonder if he was trying to be a bit clever and got infatuated.  

Also it was clear he was infatuated with Fisher too..he ran his drills at Oregon and even Peter King on SI projected him to the Bengals.

As for Bodine - again I cannot believe we trade up unless Alexander is banging the table hard for him...when have we ever traded up recently in drafts?   Mike Brown / Duke/ Marvin don't do that unless Alexander is all-in

Where I do agree the 'GM by committee' should play a role is in playing devil's advocate - tempering the position coach if they think they are over-reaching for the player, or compromising value/ picks in other need areas.


PAUL ALEXANDER

Offensive line coach
What do you like about your new guy (Ced) ?
    “I frickin’ love him. Let me tell you, there’s no way we have a chance at this guy if he doesn’t get hurt. He’s a top-of-the-draft player. There’s no question that this guy has rare feet and athleticism that you see in the very best offensive linemen in the league.”
Some critics said he plays high or has a high pad level at times. Did you see any of that?
    “I have no (reservations). Zero. Ask as many questions as you want. I’ve got zero reservations on this guy.”
Is he the best pass protector in the draft?
    “Oh yeah. Easily.”

(10-20-2016, 02:19 PM)3wt Wrote: That's my impression too about Fisher Sunset.

I mean that's a good thing sometimes.  But it clearly has not worked to Fisher's benefit.  They need to know when to stop that stuff, and my guess is don't start with it.  Coach him up for the team's primary goal - Tackle.   Go Swiss on him after he's mastered his primary focus.

Because of this we have 2 rookies in their second year.

Sure, it's a good quality to have in your backups.  But, for your starting 5, I want guys with body styles and skill sets complimentary to the specific position they play.

(10-20-2016, 01:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again for good measure.  When evaluating an OL prospect, the first thing to look at is their ability to knock someone off the ball and drive them down the field.  Pass blocking ability should be a distant second priority, as pass protection is mostly technique and can be taught.  Being physically aggressive is by far the most important quality, in my opinion, when looking at offensive linemen.

Bingo

(10-20-2016, 01:46 PM)Benton Wrote: But is that Alexander?

A few years ago Brown said he'd turned most of those decisions over to Marvin, Duke and a couple of the Brown family members, a GM by committee. Alexander may have jumped up and down about wanting a player or not, but at the end of the day, it still falls on the GM that isn't a GM.

Alexander is also assistant HC, you have to remember that aspect might be at play here....

(10-20-2016, 02:19 PM)sonofstat Wrote: The guy has been our OL coach for 20+ years. I'm sure that on any evaluation of OL he has to be the biggest voice in the room. He's not some assistant they've just hired.

Also look again at the Og comments after they draft him. Alexander was positively drooling over him...he clearly loved him and to be fair to him he must have lobbied hard to get him . I don't knock him for that , but I do wonder if he was trying to be a bit clever and got infatuated.  

Also it was clear he was infatuated with Fisher too..he ran his drills at Oregon and even Peter King on SI projected him to the Bengals.

As for Bodine - again I cannot believe we trade up unless Alexander is banging the table hard for him...when have we ever traded up recently in drafts?   Mike Brown / Duke/ Marvin don't do that unless Alexander is all-in

Where I do agree the 'GM by committee' should play a role is in playing devil's advocate - tempering the position coach if they think they are over-reaching for the player, or compromising value/ picks in other need areas.


PAUL ALEXANDER

Offensive line coach
What do you like about your new guy (Ced) ?
    “I frickin’ love him. Let me tell you, there’s no way we have a chance at this guy if he doesn’t get hurt. He’s a top-of-the-draft player. There’s no question that this guy has rare feet and athleticism that you see in the very best offensive linemen in the league.”
Some critics said he plays high or has a high pad level at times. Did you see any of that?
    “I have no (reservations). Zero. Ask as many questions as you want. I’ve got zero reservations on this guy.”
Is he the best pass protector in the draft?
    “Oh yeah. Easily.”

(10-20-2016, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: Alexander is also assistant HC, you have to remember that aspect might be at play here....

Understood, and good points all around. I'm just saying if there's 4-5 people making a decision — even if Alexander is one of them — I can't throw all the blame on him for a bad draft pick. Same as I don't entirely blame Marvin for the team's lack of success in drafting and developing LBers, or give Zampese all the credit in drafting and developing Dalton and Carson.