(12-13-2016, 01:19 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Why not here? 

Thats my issues with this organization and the fans. We just expect our guys that we have developed over the years to walk and for some younger unproven talent to take their place. 

Lets man up and pay our guy. Tired of it. 

Weve gotten better over the years of being able to keep our own guys, but as time will remind us Mike Brown is very hesitant to over paying.

If it you dedicate the time and money to develop a guy, and he's in your future plans, then its only natural that you might have to overpay to keep him.

(12-13-2016, 01:56 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Again, Jones is not overpaid. His contract puts him 27th among corners. That is not overpaid for a #1 corner coming off a Pro Bowl season. That's just nonsense. You don't like the guy, that does not mean Brown overpaid him.

It's one of those annoying hindsight situations though that makes it easy to make claims like that though.
In that Jones was worth every cent based on last year's performance but based on this year's he appears to be overpaid.

That being said I agree we rightly paid him and I'm hoping this year is just a blip and not the start of a downward trend in performances.

In my humble opinion I'd keep Dre over Zeitler if it comes down to an either or choice moneywise. This is because I am assuming (possibily very incorrectly) Zeitler is gonna be asking for DeCastro money.

(12-13-2016, 01:19 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Why not here? 

Thats my issues with this organization and the fans. We just expect our guys that we have developed over the years to walk and for some younger unproven talent to take their place. 

Lets man up and pay our guy. Tired of it. 

But then the other half of the board is whining about not letting the kids play to see what we have in them. Damned if they do, damned if they don't....

(12-13-2016, 09:45 AM)Sled21 Wrote: He was never as bad as many on this board made him out to be, and has come from the opposite side of the field to save touchdowns more times than I can count....

(12-13-2016, 03:59 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: some of the things people attribute to dre as him messing up was actually him busting his butt across the field to save a play someone else blew.

^ This.

Dre was a penalty machine early on.  Just not good.  Kept getting injured too.

However he did save the team's ass on more than a few occasions.

Some of those TD saving chase and tackles across the field to give our D another chance.

A few of those went from an easy 6 to a field goal instead.  A few occasions probably where the opponent got nothing.

That is why I was hard on him but wanted to reserve some judgement because of his speed and recovery speed.

More than just stats.  The same "eye test" people use to call a player garbage can be turned to say...  no they are not.

Again, the guy does need to work on tackling fundamentals just like 80 percent of our D this year.

I think he's on his way and needs to get paid if he keeps this play up this season.

It would be absolutely ridiculous to get your top CB right where you want him playing and just let him walk away.

Joseph 2.0?   I hope not.  Pay the guy.

(12-13-2016, 08:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Can't do it...#1 CBs are rare, and the Bengals depth at CB is paper thin as it is with Dennard and WJIII being unknowns.  They won't be able to pay both, I agree, but it is Zeitler that is not what some team will pay him.  

Dre still doesn't always like to stick his head in to tackle, but he has developed in to a solid pass defender and he is a threat to pick one off any time there is the slightest misfire.  

I hope Dennard get more snaps down the stretch.  Although WJIII is the likely Adam Jones replacement, Dennard might be needed sooner than later. 

He's not a #1 corner though hes a solid player but clearly not #1 guy. He's probably a top 40 player at his position which is good but not great.

(12-13-2016, 08:09 PM)J24 Wrote: He's not a #1 corner though hes a solid player but clearly not #1 guy. He's probably a top 40 player at his position which is good but not great.

I think he could be great with better pressure from the front four.  The Bengals are near the bottom of the NFL in sacks and sack differential.  More pressure = more INTs from the secondary.  That is why our first pick has to be a pass rushing RDE.  There are three I covet.  

(12-14-2016, 12:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think he could be great with better pressure from the front four.  The Bengals are near the bottom of the NFL in sacks and sack differential.  More pressure = more INTs from the secondary.  That is why our first pick has to be a pass rushing RDE.  There are three I covet.  

I joked today sbout how our pass rush D sucks.

Yeah, they got sacks against the Browns... but that is against an offensive line that most teams can knock the QB out of the game.

Sometimes multiple QBs!

RG3 still had time to make throws BTW.  

He just couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

(12-12-2016, 06:24 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Now it's all "This guy is great, and we should blame the coaches for not letting him play". For the last two years it's been "Kirkpatrick's a bust, and bum, get him off the field"........ this board never disappoints.

Am I the only one who thinks he still sucks?

(12-13-2016, 01:05 PM)kevin Wrote: In 3 weeks he becomes a free agent......Look for him to test the free agent waters for MONEY......Very possible Mike Brown doesn't try that much to sign him BECAUSE Mikey is paying Pacman so much and Mikey drafted Dennard and Jackson both in ROUND ONE......Mikey who was part of letting Lemar Parrish go,  and huge in letting Joseph, Hall, Nelson and Newman go would stay par for the course by letting Kirkpatrick go........PLUS Mikey Boy didn't sign Whitworth or Zeitler who also become free agents in 3 weeks.....If both Kirkpatrick and Zeitler leave then the Carson trade and that recent draft of Kirkpatrick and Zeitler early become such a waste. Classic Mikey Boy. ....I fear that when Mikey way over paid Pacman to long contract and drafted CB in round One last couple years, Mikey had made up his mind right then that he was not resigning Kirkpatrick.  I agree Kirkpatrick has came on to be our best CB, but too late in regards to Mikey Boy who over paid Pacman and has been drafting CBs.......Of the 3 free agents and 1 franchise tag, I would say keep Zeitler or at least Whitworth. ....Mike Brown has painted himself into a corner and we will lose top players to free agency as we did last year as this play-off team unravels into a last place team due to Mike Brown not resigning players BEFORE the season.....I refuse to relive the 1990's era of this team. If it gets that bad, this fan since 1968 just won't follow 1990's type Bengals ever again.

You don't seem to understand how any of this works.

Pacman earned the contract he received last year, and there is a salary cap that keeps us from re-signing every player to a huge contract.

The Bengals have actually spent over the league salary cap each of the last two years.  So who should the Bengals have cut in order to give big contracts to both Dre and Zeitler?

(12-13-2016, 09:59 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Whose fault would it be santa claus. Of course it was Kirkpatricks fault. 

Thanks for proving how little you know.  Hall was the one beaten on the td.  Here is the video

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015110102/2015/REG8/bengals@steelers#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000567072&tab=videos

(12-13-2016, 09:59 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote:  Well a lot of us can select stats that we claim are the only ones we can find to make a biased one sided argument.  

Apparently you can't because you have not posted any stats at all.

(12-13-2016, 09:59 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: His stats were inflated because he usually didnt cover the top corner.

This just is not true.  The Bengal CBs play one side of the filed more than any other team in the leagu.  they don't match up based on players.

(12-13-2016, 09:59 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: On top of that how many pass interference or holding calls did Kirkpatrick get. Thats usually indicative of a corner getting beat off the snap. You  grab the guy down field to prevent a catch.

In 2015 five of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl players and two were All-Pro

2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times.  Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

(12-14-2016, 09:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving how little you know.  Hall was the one beaten on the td.  Here is the video

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2015110102/2015/REG8/bengals@steelers#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000567072&tab=videos



Apparently you can't because you have not posted any stats at all.

It is true because pacman last season was usually covering the better wide out. This year with a new cornerback coach pacman doesn't get assigned as much to the top wide out.

Who cares about who gave up the td. Kirkpatrick was the one giving up most of the yards on that drive. The td wouldn't have been possible if Kirkpatrick had shut down brown on that drive.

Wheres those stats that I mentioned that you conveniently omitted. Your cherry picking is obnoxious and shows how little you know about the game.

(12-14-2016, 09:34 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: It is true because pacman is usually covering the better wide out.

Again, the Bengals CBs play the same side of the field more than any team in the league (97% of the time according to Football Outsiders) They don't switch based on receiver.

You are clueless.

(12-14-2016, 09:34 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Wheres those stats that I mentioned that you conveniently omitted. Your cherry picking is obnoxious and shows how little you know about the game.

You did not post any stats at all.  I posted the stats I could find.  You accuse me of cherry picking for posting stats that I can not find out there anywhere.  That is all you do.  You don't do any research or post any stats at all.  Instead you just squeal about "cherry picking" because you have nothing of real substance to back up your position.

The only bad stats you will find on Dre is missed tackles, but even those are inflated because Dre is so active in so many tackle attempts.  In 2015 Dre was third in the league in tackles by a CB with 65.  So his high number of missed tackles is not as bad when you look at them as a percentage instead of just a total.

(12-14-2016, 09:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2015 five of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl players and two were All-Pro

2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times. Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

So how would getting penalties that hurt team be considered a valuable attribute for a cornerback. For a single season that you cherry picked their might have been a bunch of top corners getting penalties. It just means they got a pro bowl despite getting a lot of penalties not because they got a lot of penalties.

(12-14-2016, 09:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, the Bengals CBs play the same side of the field more than any team in the league.  they don't switch based on receiver.


You did not post any stats at all.  I posted the stats I could find.  You accuse me of cherry picking for posting stats that I can not find out there anywhere.  That is all you do.  You don't do any research or post any stats at all.  Instead you just squeal about "cherry picking" because you have nothing of real substance to back up your position.

Its better to give no stats than to cherry pick stats like you do and claim that is a good argument.
You dont make arguments toast . You simply spew out cherry picked stats and claim they are proof of you being correct.

What about his PFF stat that was near the bottom of the league for starting corners. How about him getting zero interceptions last year. How about him giving up more yards after the catch than most corners because he doesn't tackle well.

(12-14-2016, 09:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, the Bengals CBs play the same side of the field more than any team in the league (97% of the time according to Football Outsiders) They don't switch based on receiver.

You are clueless.


You did not post any stats at all.  I posted the stats I could find.  You accuse me of cherry picking for posting stats that I can not find out there anywhere.  That is all you do.  You don't do any research or post any stats at all.  Instead you just squeal about "cherry picking" because you have nothing of real substance to back up your position.

The only bad stats you will find on Dre is missed tackles, but even those are inflated because Dre is so active in so many tackle attempts.  In 2015 Dre was third in the league in tackles by a CB with 65.  So his high number of missed tackles is not as bad when you look at them as a percentage instead of just a total.

Like I said cherry picker, last year pacman usually would cover the better wideout. This year is different. Give me last years stats not this years.

(12-14-2016, 09:46 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Its better to give no stats than to cherry pick stats like you do and claim that is a good argument.

No it is not.  I have posted stats that show that I know what I am talking about.  I know that the Bengals CBs don't switch up based on receiver, and I also know that Hall was the one who got beat on the td, not Kirkpatrick.  But based on your brilliant logic Dre is to blame when another CB gets beaten

All you know is what you hear from know-nothings on talk radio and here on these boards.

(12-14-2016, 09:46 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: What about his PFF stat that was near the bottom of the league for starting corners. 

There is no "stat" behind that ranking.  Based on the PFF formula for individual rankings a CB who played more snaps than Dre and messed up more often than Dre could still be ranked ahead of him.  PFF individual rankings are a complete joke.

(12-14-2016, 09:55 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Like I said cherry picker, last year pacman usually would cover the better wideout. This year is different. Give me last years stats not this years.

No,  You are completely wrong.

Football Outsiders keeps track of this and last year the Bengals CBs played the same side of the field  MORE THAN ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

You just do not know what you are talking about.