Question for the people who say Dalton doesn't elevate the play of the people around him. If that was the case then why has practically all of the receivers that has played with Dalton had the best years of their career with him?

(01-12-2017, 02:30 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: That is a fair question. Here is an excerpt from an SI article - 

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/12/20/nfl-quarterback-situation-supporting-cast-rankings

"The offensive line, which is usually one of the best in the league, has taken a huge step back, and that’s trickled down to everything else. The defense is getting older and is no longer capable of holding opponents down. And losing A.J. Green to injury in the middle of the season has been a big problem.

QBR ranking: 17. MV-QB ranking: 17. Without a good supporting cast, Andy Dalton is average. Which is what most of us thought."


There is mention of the O-line regressing and that having a negative effect on everything else. The point is many (outside of a few loyalist here) view Dalton as a product of his surroundings. 


He will do well when everything is in place...the problem is that almost never happens in the NFL over the course of  a full season. He does not elevate the players around him...in effect he played to the level of his supporting cast. In other words he is capable of accomplishing what any average professional at is level could do. 


Andy Dalton is like betting on the Horse in the derby that if luck would have it and all the best horses scratched or broke their legs he could beat the other half of the field. That is not a good bet. 


He lacks the skill set, leadership and will to have a bad situation and make it better. Several of you have said had a great year (for Andy Dalton) this year. How many wins did that amount to? It was a terrible year for the team. Andy needed to be a gunslinger and try to hit big plays and take risks. Instead he checked down and protected the ball, had some pretty stats that amounted to a joke of a season. 


We disagree on this apparently. I would rather have a QB thow 20+ ints trying to win in a tough year and deal with the fallout than have a guy have a good year and result in the same amount of wins. Andy did not press the team to be better...he relied on them to win the game and he just not loose it. A winner, or a leader plays with reckless abandonment in the face of a dire situation. Andy plays scared...weak leadership and it shows.


Pete Rose said what made him great was "I went to the plat to get a hit, not trying to NOT MAKE AN OUT.


Andy's mentality is the latter...average. 

Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

(01-13-2017, 05:59 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Question for the people who say Dalton doesn't elevate the play of the people around him. If that was the case then why has practically all of the receivers that has played with Dalton had the best years of their career with him?

Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

He was not the #1 receiver in Detroit...but do not let facts get in the way of your narrative. lol.
FYI - Marvin Jones had the 4th most receptions on the team. #2 in Yards, #2 in TD. The longest average per catch.
So in reality playing with an "All WOrld QB" can have a 4th option WR produce like a #2 with a QB that is capable of doing less with the football through the air. 

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

Wyche with all due respect. 

No one would ever say he needs to throw more picks...but you are a smart football guy. When your defense is not shutting people out, your kicker is missing give-me's, your o-line leaks like a sieve, the running game is lukewarm at best and you have a questionable coaching staff. Trying to conduct 7 min 20 play drives is not going to work. 

That is when you need a QB that has the guts and leadership to put the stat sheet aside and press the ball down the field. Throwing into tight coverage more than 15 yards down the field. Kind of Like a Norman J Esiason. He wanted to win. He would rather throw 4 picks and win than 4 td and lose.

Andy did not show that this year (or ever). Too many 3&7 passes that were completed for 6 yards. looks great in the completion % line and adds some fluff yards but still useless...except for a few on here that would come to say "we didn't lose because of the QB play". The issue is no one could say we won because of the QB play.

You have been Bengals fan for a long time. We have had some very talented QB's on poor teams and they went out and tried to win the game. The low football IQ fans roasted them...acting as if they were trying to trow pics 50 yards down the field. Forgetting that it was probably 3&23 due to all the issues this team had this year. Some guys are risk takers and others are not. Andy is conservative and when things are going well that is a safe bet. You will win a lot of regular season games against inferior talent. Then when the playoffs come around you will hit the buzzsaw...sound familiar? 

(01-13-2017, 01:42 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Andy did not show that this year (or ever). Too many 3&7 passes that were completed for 6 yards. looks great in the completion % line and adds some fluff yards but still useless...

Another baseless claim backed only by opinion of what you saw. The numbers tell a different story.

All throws 7-9 yards: 14.3 yards on 55 completions
On 3rd and 4+: 13.5 yards on 72 completions
On 3rd and 7-9 (the exact throws you mention): a whopping 17.0 yards on 17 completions

Next.

(01-13-2017, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Another baseless claim backed only by opinion of what you saw. The numbers tell a different story.

All throws 7-9 yards: 14.3 yards on 55 completions
On 3rd and 4+: 13.5 yards on 72 completions
On 3rd and 7-9 (the exact throws you mention): a whopping 17.0 yards on 17 completions

Next.

I am not grasping what you presented. Do you have a link to these stats so we can get the entire picture.
Are your saying we only had 17 opportunities the entire year at 3rd & 7-9???  one a game????? In those opportunities we had the average was 17 yards? What was the longest??? Is this only the completions...not the throwaways or incompletes?

I am sure these numbers will have a lot of holes poked in them if we can see the chart you are using. 

Next.

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

Let's not forget that Jones didn't play a whole year with Dalton 2015. Plus I would argue his 2013 numbers were better. He might have had fewer yards, but he had 10 TDs that year.

(01-13-2017, 02:20 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I am not grasping what you presented. Do you have a link to these stats so we can get the entire picture.
Are your saying we only had 17 opportunities the entire year at 3rd & 7-9???  one a game????? In those opportunities we had the average was 17 yards? What was the longest??? Is this only the completions...not the throwaways or incompletes?

I am sure these numbers will have a lot of holes poked in them if we can see the chart you are using. 

Next.

Lol. You grasp it just fine, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. You stated that Dalton completes too many passes on 3rd down that are well short of first down. Therefore the relevant stat to your point would be completions and how far Dalton's completions went on 3rd downs. I listed all of the above.

Dalton completed 17 of 34 passes on 3rd and 7-9. That would mean we had 34 such opportunities where we passed. Now is that completion % in this particular scenario impressive? Nope, but that wasn't your point.

Here's the link. Knock yourself out: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/splits/2016/

I'm sure you'll find something else to talk about, because your point about Dalton throwing well short of the first down marker has already been disproven.

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

Andy will never win with some people.  If the Bengals somehow manage to win a SB some day and Andy is name MVP, people will do all kinds of mental gymnastics as to why he sucks.

(01-13-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. You grasp it just fine, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. You stated that Dalton completes too many passes on 3rd down that are well short of first down. Therefore the relevant stat to your point would be completions and how far Dalton's completions went on 3rd downs. I listed all of the above.

Dalton completed 17 of 34 passes on 3rd and 7-9. That would mean we had 34 such opportunities where we passed. Now is that completion % in this particular scenario impressive? Nope, but that wasn't your point.

Here's the link. Knock yourself out: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/splits/2016/

I'm sure you'll find something else to talk about, because your point about Dalton throwing well short of the first down marker has already been disproven.

Not sure you are correct anywhere but in your mind. 

Using your link 
Andy was 11/34 in first down conversion passing on 3rd 7-9 - 32% 
(6 of his 17 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to an impressive 50% total fluff)
on 3rd & 10 or more he was 10/52 for first downs. - 19.23%
(20 of his 30 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to a WHOPPING 57% total fluff)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/alex/2017/alex-season-review

This shows specifically how a QB does in 3rd down situations when passing.
Overall Andy is ranked 20th out of 34 qualifying QB's
On 3rd and short Andy is rated 18th of 34.
On 3rd and mid Andy does his best work and is rated 9th (well done) of 34.
On 3rd and long Andy is rated 29th of 34


What is it you are trying to say...because I said he is not a risk taker and does not do well pushing the ball down the field to the sticks on third and long. These are the facts to prove it.

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

So you're saying Andy had better weapons that Matt Stafford?

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

Lets go with the high of 8; as I've seen folks (around here) suggest it.

I think we all (ok, most) can agree that the following have proven to be better during Andy's time in the league:

Brady
Rodgers
Ben
Matt
Brees
Wilson
Rivers

To put him at 8 you would have to say he's ahead of:
Luck
Newton
Smith
Palmer
Flacco
Romo
Cousins
Stafford
Prescott
Mariota
Winston
Tannehill


Now ask yourself this question:

Who has the better argument, the guy that puts him a 8 or the one that puts him at 17. 

Here's the thing: I've never asked for Andy to be replaced; as I know we can win with him; but for those that put him in top tier; why do you call for the HC to be replaced? Do you not think he could be successful elsewhere?

(01-04-2017, 11:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dalton needs to be about 5 higher on that list.

Andrew Luck at 5 is a joke.
Carson Palmer was terrible considering he had one of the best pass catching groups in the NFL.
Philip Rivers just threw 21 interceptions and had the 2nd lowest completion % of his career. Maybe his age caught up to him.
Jameis Winston wasn't very impressive.
Cam Newton was TURRIBLE.

I'd currently put Dalton in front of those 5.

- - - - - - -

Prescott and Mariota are kind of hard to rank because of how ridiculously good their run games were. (2nd and 3rd in rushing, respectively) I can't imagine they'd be nearly as good if they were actually relied upon and defenses didn't have to put 7-8 in the box to try to stop the run.

- - - - - - - -

12th would be roughly where I put Dalton, probably in roughly the same level as Carr/Stafford/Cousins.

  I don't know how they could put Dalton at 17th. Everyone still seems to be in love with Luck and what they thought he would be coming out of the draft. Palmer was horrible and would have been benched on several other NFL teams. Still cant figure out just how good Winston is and Rivers just had a horrible season to forget.

(01-13-2017, 10:14 PM)jimbengals Wrote:   I don't know how they could put Dalton at 17th. Everyone still seems to be in love with Luck and what they thought he would be coming out of the draft. Palmer was horrible and would have been benched on several other NFL teams. Still cant figure out just how good Winston is and Rivers just had a horrible season to forget.

River's rating in his "Horrible season to forget" is 1.4 points lower than Andy's career rating and is higher than half the seasons in Andy's career. 

(01-13-2017, 10:14 PM)jimbengals Wrote:   I don't know how they could put Dalton at 17th. Everyone still seems to be in love with Luck and what they thought he would be coming out of the draft. Palmer was horrible and would have been benched on several other NFL teams. Still cant figure out just how good Winston is and Rivers just had a horrible season to forget.

Luck > Dalton
Palmer > Dalton
Winston < Dalton
Rivers > Dalton

(01-13-2017, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Another baseless claim backed only by opinion of what you saw. The numbers tell a different story.

All throws 7-9 yards: 14.3 yards on 55 completions
On 3rd and 4+: 13.5 yards on 72 completions
On 3rd and 7-9 (the exact throws you mention): a whopping 17.0 yards on 17 completions

Next.

(01-13-2017, 02:20 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I am not grasping what you presented. Do you have a link to these stats so we can get the entire picture.
Are your saying we only had 17 opportunities the entire year at 3rd & 7-9???  one a game????? In those opportunities we had the average was 17 yards? What was the longest??? Is this only the completions...not the throwaways or incompletes?

I am sure these numbers will have a lot of holes poked in them if we can see the chart you are using. 

Next.

(01-13-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. You grasp it just fine, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. You stated that Dalton completes too many passes on 3rd down that are well short of first down. Therefore the relevant stat to your point would be completions and how far Dalton's completions went on 3rd downs. I listed all of the above.

Dalton completed 17 of 34 passes on 3rd and 7-9. That would mean we had 34 such opportunities where we passed. Now is that completion % in this particular scenario impressive? Nope, but that wasn't your point.

Here's the link. Knock yourself out: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/splits/2016/

I'm sure you'll find something else to talk about, because your point about Dalton throwing well short of the first down marker has already been disproven.

(01-13-2017, 03:17 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Not sure you are correct anywhere but in your mind. 

Using your link 
Andy was 11/34 in first down conversion passing on 3rd 7-9 - 32% 
(6 of his 17 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to an impressive 50% total fluff)
on 3rd & 10 or more he was 10/52 for first downs. - 19.23%
(20 of his 30 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to a WHOPPING 57% total fluff)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/alex/2017/alex-season-review

This shows specifically how a QB does in 3rd down situations when passing.
Overall Andy is ranked 20th out of 34 qualifying QB's
On 3rd and short Andy is rated 18th of 34.
On 3rd and mid Andy does his best work and is rated 9th (well done) of 34.
On 3rd and long Andy is rated 29th of 34


What is it you are trying to say...because I said he is not a risk taker and does not do well pushing the ball down the field to the sticks on third and long. These are the facts to prove it.

Are you going to respond or can we agree on this point?

(01-13-2017, 10:32 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Luck > Dalton
Palmer > Dalton
Winston < Dalton
Rivers > Dalton

To be fair, It's as hard to say Andy is worse than Winston and Palmer; than it is to say he is better than both.

Age matters in both equations: 

I would not trade Andy for Palmer; however, I would for Winston in a second

I wouldn't say Winston has been better than Andy to date; however, I would say Carson has, 

(01-13-2017, 10:32 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Luck > Dalton
Palmer > Dalton
Winston < Dalton
Rivers > Dalton

I'd say:

Palmer = Dalton

Both guys were flat-out awesome last year and were completely run into the ground by lousy o-lines and offensive schemes. Hell, even the almighty Russellll Wilson was betrayed by his line and still got praise despite putting up 5 offensive showings of 12 points or less. 

(01-13-2017, 10:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To be fair, It's as hard to say Andy is worse than Winston and Palmer; than it is to say he is better than both.

Age matters in both equations: 

I would not trade Andy for Palmer; however, I would for Winston in a second

I wouldn't say Winston has been better than Andy to date; however, I would say Carson has, 

Palmer and Dalton are both better than the other in the right situation. 

A pass aggressive downfield attack you could not take Dalton over Palmer, not even a consideration. 

In a dink-and-dunk check down offense Dalton is the better fit. Palmer could physically do it...the question would be would he want to. 

Physically Palmer can do what Dalton does...Dalton can't match Palmers skill set right at this moment...(not even a discussion in each QB's prime)