I have asked this inside of other threads but I think it merits its own thread

why in the world would the Bengals waste a first round pick on a guard - a position they do not value- knowing that they won't resign a guard drafted in the first round who succeeds to a second contract because they don't value the position.

How many guys went after Z in positions Bengals value more than guard.

I seriously do not get this at all.

(02-20-2017, 02:19 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I have asked this inside of other threads but I think it merits its own thread

why in the world would the Bengals waste a first round pick on a guard - a position they do not value- knowing that they won't resign a guard drafted in the first round who succeeds to a second contract because they don't value the position.

How many guys went after Z in positions Bengals value more than guard.

I seriously do not get this at all.

It is a good question, we all loved the Zeitler pick at the time, the fans. Maybe we do have SOME pull?

Most of us wanted DeCastro but i thought at the time it was masterful to trade down and get nearly as good of a Guard.

Zeitler has actually been better in pass protection than DeCastro, just not near as good in the run blocking department as
most of PA's O-lineman are. To invest a first round pick on a guy and just let him go cause you don't value a position in the
trenches is very telling. This is where games are won, shows how much Mikey boy cares about winning.

Still, i think we could let Zeit go, grab Ronald Leary and Ricky Wagner in FA and be much better with a Center draft pick
but hey, probably not going to happen. Probably just get Leary or another FA Guard and ride with Bodine at Center and
Fisher at RT, not improving, especially in pass protection.

Would be throwing Leary into a buzz saw even though i think Fisher played okay last year.

(02-20-2017, 02:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is a good question, we all loved the Zeitler pick at the time, the fans. Maybe we do have SOME pull?

Most of us wanted DeCastro but i thought at the time it was masterful to trade down and get nearly as good of a Guard.

Zeitler has actually been better in pass protection than DeCastro, just not near as good in the run blocking department as
most of PA's O-lineman are. To invest a first round pick on a guy and just let him go cause you don't value a position in the
trenches is very telling. This is where games are won, shows how much Mikey boy cares about winning.

Still, i think we could let Zeit go, grab Ronald Leary and Ricky Wagner in FA and be much better with a Center draft pick
but hey, probably not going to happen. Probably just get Leary or another FA Guard and ride with Bodine at Center and
Fisher at RT, not improving, especially in pass protection.

Would be throwing Leary into a buzz saw even though i think Fisher played okay last year.

I thought it was a great move at the time when they traded down.

But I do not understand why they would waste a first round pick on a player in a position position they know they will not get a second contract

we basically developed Z for some other organization right as he is becoming a premium interior lineman

another question raised by many others - why do we love comp picks and draft choices when Marvin refuses to play rookies?

I think most of Dennard's problems ( other than injuries) is lack of playing time.

Further proof that this organization is dysfunctional in so many ways.

(02-20-2017, 03:10 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I thought it was a great move at the time when they traded down.

But I do not understand why they would waste a first round pick on a player in a position position they know they will not get a second contract

we basically developed Z for some other organization right as he is becoming a premium interior lineman

another question raised by many others - why do we love comp picks and draft choices when Marvin refuses to play rookies?

I think most of Dennard's problems ( other than injuries) is lack of playing time.

Further proof that this organization is dysfunctional in so many ways.

Because they knew they needed to draft a player talented enough to mask his position coach's gross inadequacies, a guy they won't fire.  Yes, dysfunctional is a splendid descriptor.....

Because bengals wanted a top OG with a rookie contract. Maybe they figured they were a OG away from a dominant OL and potential Super Bowl? It didn't work out as planned however.

But if the bengals won't pay for Top interior o Line play how else do they get it?

(02-20-2017, 03:26 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Because bengals wanted a top OG with a rookie contract. Maybe they figured they were a OG away from a dominant OL and potential Super Bowl?   It didn't work out as planned however.  

But if the bengals won't pay for Top interior o Line play how else do they get it?

Fire a hanger on, and get a real position coach to coach up borderline talent?

I created a thread on this also. I have no clue.

The one thing I can think is the Bengals wanted a guy to play on a rookie contract for 5 years then would replace him.

Ideally they would have drafted and started grooming his replacement 2 years ago.

In general...You pay Z 11 million then you have to pay Whit 14 (He is more valuable to the team)...You cannot spend your entire cap on the OL

(02-21-2017, 10:20 AM)spazz70 Wrote: In general...You pay Z 11 million then you have to pay Whit 14 (He is more valuable to the team)...You cannot spend your entire cap on the OL

Had they just gotten Z locked up with an extension prior (like Hobspin's articles state they were supposed to be doing with all of this rollover money we couldn't touch to sign good FAs), or not drafted projects at T that Piano Man can't coach up, they wouldn't be in this mess.

(02-21-2017, 10:35 AM)Wyche Wrote: Had they just gotten Z locked up with an extension prior (like Hobspin's articles state they were supposed to be doing with all of this rollover money we couldn't touch to sign good FAs), or not drafted projects at T that Piano Man can't coach up, they wouldn't be in this mess.

Reports were that we tried to work with Z and he must have wanted to test the FA market and this became more obvious with Whit's statements in the last few days....Sorry, IMHO, a guard is not worth 11 million.

(02-21-2017, 02:37 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Reports were that we tried to work with Z and he must have wanted to test the FA market and this became more obvious with Whit's statements in the last few days....Sorry, IMHO, a guard is not worth 11 million.

Fair enough, I hadn't heard any of that.  I just wonder if they had locked him up before last season if the price would be that high.

(02-21-2017, 02:37 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Reports were that we tried to work with Z and he must have wanted to test the FA market and this became more obvious with Whit's statements in the last few days....Sorry, IMHO, a guard is not worth 11 million.

Guards absolutely get paid that now. You need to keep your best players.

It's not like they'll turn around and bring in a $10 million a year pass rusher with that money.

(02-21-2017, 02:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: Fair enough, I hadn't heard any of that.  I just wonder if they had locked him up before last season if the price would be that high.

The team and Z's agent were trying to get an extension done for a while. When Pittsburgh extended DeCastro, the extension talks were shut down by both sides.

(02-21-2017, 04:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Guards absolutely get paid that now. You need to keep your best players.

It's not like they'll turn around and bring in a $10 million a year pass rusher with that money.

Sure they get paid, but you can pay less and get almost the same value.  Big Z is the premier guard in this FA class and someone is going to overpay him that's what he's counting on.  When negotiating in business you have to be willing to walk away from the table if perceived value doesn't matched expected earnings.  If he was a premier center I would be all on board to pay him whatever it takes because centers can make or break a team, but we can get another guard in free agency for 7-8 million and the fall off won't be that great.  

(02-21-2017, 07:19 PM)Okeana Wrote: Sure they get paid, but you can pay less and get almost the same value.  Big Z is the premier guard in this FA class and someone is going to overpay him that's what he's counting on.  When negotiating in business you have to be willing to walk away from the table if perceived value doesn't matched expected earnings.  If he was a premier center I would be all on board to pay him whatever it takes because centers can make or break a team, but we can get another guard in free agency for 7-8 million and the fall off won't be that great.  

IF they can sign a guy like Ronald Leary...I'd be happy. He should cost much less.

With that said...if they don't sign a Guard and try to start Westerman...our line is going to have issues.

Same with Center. It needs addressed.

I really think the Bengals drafted Zeitler in the first with every intention early on to keep him around as one of the highest paid OL on the team. However, I think part of that plan was to also have a true heir ready at LT and move on from Whitworth by the time Zeitler reached FA. Unfortunately, the past two years have not gone as hoped with both Ogbuehi and Fisher not meeting expectations to say the least, so the team will have to keep Whitworth around a year or two longer in order to compete.

Part of the issue is the price of guards has jumped in the last year or two. I think they were willing to pay the 7 or 8 million for a top end guard, but not the 10-11 million that they are getting now.

(02-21-2017, 11:11 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: IF they can sign a guy like Ronald Leary...I'd be happy. He should cost much less.

With that said...if they don't sign a Guard and try to start Westerman...our line is going to have issues.

Same with Center. It needs addressed.

New Orleans is rumored to be targeting Leary. Might as well cross him off the list.

(02-22-2017, 05:22 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: New Orleans is rumored to be targeting Leary. Might as well cross him off the list.

Ahhh man...

(02-21-2017, 05:29 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: The team and Z's agent were trying to get an extension done for a while. When Pittsburgh extended DeCastro, the extension talks were shut down by both sides.

I think Pittsburgh did this deal with DeCastro solely to screw over the Bengals. They knew that by setting the market to an outrageous number for guard, the Bengals would allow Zeitler to walk and therefore the team would be worse.
Just wait, next year you'll see DeCastro and the Steelers restructure the deal to be more in the ballpark of $8 mill a year