(03-13-2017, 04:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You're right, but then here's the question. What will the rest be spent on? If the Bengals somehow use $27 million between the draft, extensions, and injury settlement, then they gave too much in extensions. The draft should cost about $10 million based on given picks. You're looking at between $3-5 million reserved for injury. That still leaves about $12-14 million.

The Bengals only have two players worth putting this toward - Eifert and Burfict. The rest are mediocre at best and should not get good extensions (keyword SHOULD). Are the Bengals really going to invest $12 million worth of this year's cap into upcoming extensions? If so, they clearly are showing they care much more about not being in the basement but will never show urgency to "win now". That will result in perennially 6 to 11 regular season wins and no AFC Championship games.

That's the part that really frustrates most of us on here.

They rolled over money for this year - for what?  They let 2 of their best players walk.  

The bottom line is that the Bengals are always going to leave $10 million or so on the table for injuries and incentives.

I always question the injury allocation, who is ever going to be available in the middle of the season that will take up that kind of money?  Answer: nobody and if there was, the Bengals wouldn't want to spend that much on a guy.

Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

Here's my view (and I feel like I'm a pretty rational fan):

1.  Whit leaving didn't bother me THAT much.  He's how old?  I would have liked to have seen another one year deal for him, but so be it.

2.  Zeitler leaving really pissed me off.  The team sits here and keeps saying "we draft, develop and sign our own."  Well, not this time.  Don't tell me that you don't  "value" the position either, that's a load of crap.

3.  Dre was a must sign.  I thought he played pretty good last year and the year before.  You can't let these young guys walk.

My only real complaint is that we were fed this whole "we sign our own" stuff and then it doesn't happen.  Worse yet, we keep getting this shit about the team not signing any UFAs because it would affect comp picks.  That's such a garbage excuse.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

I don't get upset with you about what you report, it's just hard not to get frustrated by the team. We all know Hobson is the mouthpiece, but it gets old knowing exactly what he's going to say. Everyone we let walk is a good move, everyone we sign will find his fire from 12 seasons ago and be a world beater. Every drafted player and UDFA is a first ballot HOFer in the making.

As a fan, I'd just like the truth. We all know it already, just be straight up about it. Hey, we're ***** cheap. Mike Brown values money above all else. We're going to spend as little as we can possibly get away with. We'd still be pissed, but at least they wouldn't have to waste their time trying to make up fake, bullshit excuses.

We stay below the cap, rollover money each year, and then limit the amount we're going to spend. We don't go after any impact free agents, we place our own Mike Brown value on players (team be damned), and we value comp picks more than winning now. We constantly hear about how we have modeled ourselves after other winning franchises, but we don't do anything like them except draft players.

Being a Bengals fan is it's own special kind of hell. It's a frustration like no other. While we sit on a huge amount of cap space, we watch teams with half do so much more while we keep hearing they have to save for future extensions.

None of this is directed at you. Just venting. Some of it has to do with it being the offseason. Once the games are back, that will help some.

Mike Browns passion for Comp picks will only get worse in the future now that you can trade them. It's rare when they do a trade but it still adds to the value that may entice Mikey wanting them more than ever. When I first heard about being able to trade them I went from happy to sad faster than Arthur Blank.

I really think the Bengals are being even more deliberate than they think at this point, right or wrong. I assumed they would only look at cut FA
s, but instead are looking all over the place but being careful about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Zeitler and Whitworth comp picks are safe so long as they don't sign someone for above what the 3rd loss (Dansby at the time) signed for. They'll likely lose more UFA's than they gain quantity wise, but lets look at some of the deals. I don't think it's a coincidence they didn't have visits lined up until after Peko signed for 3.75/yr. I bet you that's the max they offered Barwin, as anything above that could negate the high pick they get for one of the big OL losses. So regardless of UFA or cut player, they're just bringing in a player and signing them as they lose one. Watch them wait until they lose Burkhead to pick up another descent one. Like Barwin tomorrow and then say Andre signs after Burkhead signs with NE or something.

Here's my take on this Mike Brown only cares about money never once has he changed his stance on this!
So he got lucky and found a few gems in the draft like Atkins, Dunlap,and Burfict which made us a good team!
Everytime we get a good to great players if we don't lock them up the year before their contact is up you can say goodbye to them because our owner is to much of a cheapskate to outbid anyone.
Kirkpatrick wouldn't have cost half as much as he cost us if he would have been extended last year!!
The proof that they're cheap is they won't even build their own practice faceilety to intice FA to come here and I will never forget when they flew someone in coach class trying to win them in FA and do the players still have to pay for their own Gatorade??
What really pisses me off is do other teams have to allow for injury pick ups​,roll over , because I know they go way over the cap if they have to allow for that stuff also it's just more proof to how cheap Mike Brown is.....All the other teams want to win and spend the whole dam cap!
We on the other hand have to hope to get lucky we resupply or lost players through the draft !
Still can't get over that we don't even try to get Zeitler back!!!!eff Mike Brown the eff cheapskate!!!!!
Rant over!! Something I forgot to mention is that the cap floor was put in because of Mike Brown being so cheap the NFL tried to make him spend his money but he was smart enough to find the loopholes to not spend nice try NFL!!!!!!l!!

(03-14-2017, 05:19 AM)The_WiseOne Wrote: Here's my take on this Mike Brown only cares about money never once has he changed his stance on this!
So he got lucky and found a few gems in the draft like Atkins, Dunlap,and Burfict which made us a good team!
Everytime we get a good to great players if we don't lock them up the year before their contact is up you can say goodbye to them because our owner is to much of a cheapskate to outbid anyone.
Kirkpatrick wouldn't have cost half as much as he cost us if he would have been extended last year!!
The proof that they're cheap is they won't even build their own practice faceilety to intice FA to come here and I will never forget when they flew someone in coach class trying to win them in FA and do the players still have to pay for their own Gatorade??
What really pisses me off is do other teams have to allow for injury pick ups​,roll over , because I know they go way over the cap if they have to allow for that stuff also it's just more proof to how cheap Mike Brown is.....All the other teams want to win and spend the whole dam cap!
We on the other hand have to hope to get lucky we resupply or lost players through the draft !
Still can't get over that we don't even try to get Zeitler back!!!!eff Mike Brown the eff cheapskate!!!!!
Rant over!! Something I forgot to mention is that the cap floor was put in because of Mike Brown being so cheap the NFL tried to make him spend his money but he was smart enough to find the loopholes to not spend nice try NFL!!!!!!l!!

Exactly. That's the point I've been trying to make. As soon as M.jones decided to move on why didn't they use that money to keep Whit for 2 more years and retire. Like you said, if they would have made an offer with Zeitler, Whit or Kirk they might have gotten 2 out of 3 for far less than they got in FA. Why wait for a bidding war. But who knows maybe they tried and the players decided they wanted to see what they can get.I always thought Whit wanted to retire here so maybe there was a falling out. Whit seeing his replacement drafted, didn't want to move to Guard and got the last laugh knowing their plan went to shit once OG sucked it up. Hope he turns it around. As for Kirk, I don't think he's worth the money he got. I think we might regret choosing him out of the 3.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

At this point, the fans saw Ogbuehi struggle and don't want to see him on the field anymore, especially at LT.
I don't think fans are necessarily upset about DK's deal, but more upset that he was kept over Whit and Zeitler.
Last, the fans want to win now, as it feels like the window is closing. By allowing Whit and Zeitler to walk, the fans are expecting the Bengals OL to be a sieve and the Bengals to miss the playoffs.

(03-10-2017, 05:51 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I don't want to hear the whole "Oh we don't have enough money to sign players".

The Eagles had $11 million in cap space. Meanwhile, they come out with Alshon Jeffrey, Torrey Smith, and Chance Warmack.
What did they do for that to happen? They cut Conner Barwin. Saves them a little over $7 million.

Or look at the Ravens. They had $10 million. Yet re-sign Brandon Williams to the highest contract for a NT and also signs Tony Jefferson.
What did they do for this to happen? They cut Dumervil, Lewis, and Wright. Dumervil gave them $8 million alone.

Meanwhile we still have Maualuga and Pacman on our team. But even then, we still have around the same numbers as those two teams AFTER signing our own guys.

If I'm not mistaken, the Ravens also added Danny Woodhead. That's the signing that worries me the most. Don't laugh. Woodhead is a great receiving threat out of the backfield...something they've been missing since Ray Rice.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?

No.

I can't speak for everyone, but all I want is for our top picks to get a chance. If they get that chance and suck on an epic level, I'm just fine with letting them rot on the bench. It's one thing for a young player to look like he needs some seasoning...it's a whole other thing if he almost single-handedly sinks a season.

To be honest, I'm not even mad about Whit leaving. I think it was the right call. I'm mad that they didn't have a plan B veteran free agent in mind. It seems like Ogbuehi was their backup plan at LT all along. Now if they were sold on Ogbuehi, why even bother pursuing Whit? None of it makes any sense.

(03-13-2017, 11:12 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Devil's advocate: For those upset about Whit leaving, would you then be mad if Ogbuehi never played and was yet another young guy that never played when Whit was 38, perhaps (likely declining) and a first-round pick walked out the door wondering who he is?
For those upset about Dre being given $52.5 million, would you then be mad if he left because the team "never pays their own?"
I'm not asking to be a d--- but just curious, from the fan point of view.

I do understand some of this is rooted in the "Bengals salary cap" they operate under. But here's the thing, all: Bengals.com is owned by the team. Geoff works for the team. Not quite sure what you're expecting there.

Now, yes, we have also reported the salary cap the Bengals choose to operate with. This is not a tacit approval, merely reporting. Obviously that is a source of frustration/anger in general.

But, Ogbuehi has played and not very well. Granted it is a small sample size in the NFL, but would you feel comfortable giving him the starting LT job? And how much can he realistically improve with one healthy offseason of coaching? (Assuming the shoulder injury which landed him on the IR is healed.) Right now, what is their plan B if he continues to play like he did last year? Whit is still playing at a high level. The Rams signed him at $3 million more per season than the Bengals paid him last season, right? Given the dearth of OT talent in the draft and Ogbuehi's play, I don't think $12/season for Whit is ridiculous. Nor would it destroy their salary cap situation. The salary cap increased by $12 million this year. That's Whit's salary right there. Plus, having Whit at LT (or even LG as Whit said he was open to a change) would allow the Ogbuehi another year to develop at tackle, it would give the Bengals a greater sample size to evaluate Ovbuehi's development, and if Ogbuehi struggles this season a better plan B to reshuffle the line.

Kirkpatrick: this year's draft is flush with DB talent. If a team needs a DB, this should be a good year to draft one. I would have rather lost Kirkpatrick in free agency and drafted a replacement in this year's draft rather than lose Whit and install Ogbuehi without any competition to win the job.

Also, the $12 million salary cap increase could cover Zeitler's salary. So the Bengals could have afforded Whit or Zeitler simply because the salary cap went up enough to cover their salary.

(03-14-2017, 10:36 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Also, the $12 million salary cap increase could cover Zeitler's salary. So the Bengals could have afforded Whit or Zeitler simply because the salary cap went up enough to cover their salary.

They could have afforded both.  All they had to do was cut Pacman and Maualuga. 

 What really irks me in all of this that had an extension been done earlier (like they said they were saving for before Jim O was in Cincy with the Enquirer as a reason to justify sitting on their ass in FA), they would be getting Zeitler for a steal right now.  Then, they could have tagged Whit, or negotiated with him to keep him here a year or two.  Ogbuehi didn't just play bad, he looked lost on the field.  Blodine is one of the worst Centers I've ever seen.

(03-14-2017, 10:45 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: They could have afforded both.  All they had to do was cut Pacman and Maualuga. 

 What really irks me in all of this that had an extension been done earlier (like they said they were saving for before Jim O was in Cincy with the Enquirer as a reason to justify sitting on their ass in FA), they would be getting Zeitler for a steal right now.  Then, they could have tagged Whit, or negotiated with him to keep him here a year or two.  Ogbuehi didn't just play bad, he looked lost on the field.  Blodine is one of the worst Centers I've ever seen.

Without a doubt, there are roster moves they can make to free up cap space.

I'm sure you already know, they sell the hometown discount to pending free agents by telling them other teams might sign them to a larger contract than the Bengals are offering, but they will never see all that money because they will cut you when you get older or your play declines.

With us, yes, we are offering less money, but you'll receive all that money because we won't cut you when you underperform. See Rey Maualuga. Even though he is underperforming, we're still paying him and haven't released him.

So in Bengals' front office logic, less is actually more.

Believe all knew Whit was coming to an end here and could have even retired at his age.

Yet OL was so bad last season with exception of him and Zeitler that they needed to be retained. Boling should receive somewhat of a pass per injury.

Would have liked to have seen Whit tagged for a year which would not have made them commit to a 3 year deal and give him a chance to retire a Bengal as well and mentor Ced another year.

Zeitler should not have been lowballed last season with offer to extend that would have avoided this bidding war with Hue.

There is plenty of dead weight that could have been cut to come out same financially.

Kirkpatrick was overpaid but am fine with signing and I for one was vocal against drafting him.

Just do not think anybody could watch OL last year and believe we were in good enough shape to let go of our only two good ones just yet.

Hope Ced and Fischer pan out in huge way yet not expecting it. Think there will be improvement because they were already at rock bottom with nowhere but up to go. But the ceiling is a long way presently and can not see either reach it this year.

Maybe in a year or two when they are FA they will start to pan out. Think we should be active in draft to give them some competition as motivation.

(03-14-2017, 11:15 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Without a doubt, there are roster moves they can make to free up cap space.

I'm sure you already know, they sell the hometown discount to pending free agents by telling them other teams might sign them to a larger contract than the Bengals are offering, but they will never see all that money because they will cut you when you get older or your play declines.

With us, yes, we are offering less money, but you'll receive all that money because we won't cut you when you underperform. See Rey Maualuga. Even though he is underperforming, we're still paying him and haven't released him.

So in Bengals' front office logic, less is actually more.

Yep, that logic is stupid.  Just get players worth a shit, and cut dead weight.....quit worrying about comp picks and rollover money.  We just gotta trust "the process", that has yielded exactly ZERO postseason wins in 26 years.....and only a handful of winning seasons.

(03-14-2017, 11:16 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Believe all knew Whit was coming to an end here and could have even retired at his age.

Yet OL was so bad last season with exception of him and Zeitler that they needed to be retained. Boling should receive somewhat of a pass per injury.

Would have liked to have seen Whit tagged for a year which would not have made them commit to a 3 year deal and give him a chance to retire a Bengal as well and mentor Ced another year.

Zeitler should not have been lowballed last season with offer to extend that would have avoided this bidding war with Hue.

There is plenty of dead weight that could have been cut to come out same financially.

Kirkpatrick was overpaid but am fine with signing and I for one was vocal against drafting him.  

Just do not think anybody could watch OL last year and believe we were in good enough shape to let go of our only two good ones just yet.

Hope Ced and Fischer pan out in huge way yet not expecting it. Think there will be improvement because they were already at rock bottom with nowhere but up to go. But the ceiling is a long way presently and can not see either reach it this year.

Maybe in a year or two when they are FA they will start to pan out. Think we should be active in draft to give them some competition as motivation.

The Oline franchise tag is $14.4 mil, $12.6 for the transition tag.

The Rams made Whitworth the 10th highest paid LT in the league based upon average salary/year.

Whit's cap hit is $9.17 mil this year.

That contract doesn't seem crazy to me considering the state of the Bengals' oline.

Jesus Christ!  Looking at the contract, if the Rams want to cut Whit next season the dead money is only $3.33 million which they would be able to spread over two years if they designate him a June 1st cut.  

$9.17 + $3.33 = $12.5 million

They basically signed him to a one year deal for less than the transition tag if they want to cut him next year.  Now, I'm ***** pissed!

Thanks for playing along, all.
I’ll do my best to hit on some of these more interesting comments…

My only real complaint is that we were fed this whole "we sign our own" stuff and then it doesn't happen.  

Factually speaking: Of the current roster: Atkins, Bernard, Boling, Burfict, Dalton, Dunlap, Green, Hewitt, Huber, Iloka, Kirkpatrick, Maualuga, Rey, Williams all were original draft picks or college signings that got a second deal.
Harris, Johnson, Sims, Jones were guys who got a second deal, even if it was coming back.

That’s 34% of the roster, and all starters and/or All-Pros. I’m not going to go through every team’s roster but I’d venture to say that’s at or near the top of the league. And this isn’t counting guys like Leon Hall, Peko, Whit, Chad Johnson, Palmer, Rudi Johnson, etc.

I understand people get mad when Marvin Jones or Kevin Zeitler or Johnathan Joseph leave, but it’s just feasible to retain every player you draft.

Worse yet, we keep getting this shit about the team not signing any UFAs because it would affect comp picks.

This is a legit gripe.

We constantly hear about how we have modeled ourselves after other winning franchises, but we don't do anything like them except draft players. 

This is also fair. The team has seemed unusually rigid since Antonio Bryant in the UFA market, or even trading for Reggie Nelson.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Zeitler and Whitworth comp picks are safe so long as they don't sign someone for above what the 3rd loss (Dansby at the time) signed for. They'll likely lose more UFA's than they gain quantity wise, 

That is true. Remember, Whitworth only gains a fifth-rounder due to rules that say a player who is 30 years old or older and has 10 accrued seasons. But yes, they can protect those. And yes, that second statement is also true.

Everytime we get a good to great players if we don't lock them up the year before their contact is up you can say goodbye to them because our owner is to much of a cheapskate to outbid anyone.

Factually speaking:
Since I’ve been covering the team, Green, Bernard, Williams and Hewitt have been locked up early. I know Dalton, Atkins and Dunlap were, too. This is what the team prefers to do with that roll over money. Remember – takes two to tango. See below…

Kirkpatrick wouldn't have cost half as much as he cost us if he would have been extended last year!!

Who’s to say he wanted to be?

but more upset that he was kept over Whit and Zeitler.

It wasn’t one over or for another.

 Right now, what is their plan B if he continues to play like he did last year?

Great question. Still don’t know.

Also, the $12 million salary cap increase could cover Zeitler's salary.

It went up $10 million and that is for just one year. Zeitler’s money is over the following four.

They could have afforded both.  All they had to do was cut Pacman and Maualuga. 

Not really. For this year, it would have opened $10 million or so for this season. Maualuga has no money owed after this season and Jones’ salary would have saved around $8 in ’17. It’s a club option in ’18.

 What really irks me in all of this that had an extension been done earlier (like they said they were saving for before Jim O was in Cincy with the Enquirer as a reason to justify sitting on their ass in FA), they would be getting Zeitler for a steal right now.

Zeitler should not have been lowballed last season with offer to extend that would have avoided this bidding war with Hue. 

I can tell you right now Zeitler would not have been signed for a steal. At any point. He was set on hitting the market, or setting the market. Was it a lowball? Back in 2015 Clint Boling’s deal was a top 11 contract for a guard. Maybe they would have moved to a top 10 deal? Going forward, the market exploded.

 Just get players worth a shit, and cut dead weight.....quit worrying about comp picks and rollover money

I get this issue.

(Waiting for someone to call Jim O an apologist and accuse him of being content with losing.)

(03-16-2017, 12:35 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote:  


(Waiting for someone to call Jim O an apologist and accuse him of being content with losing.)

I doubt Jim really cares enough to apologize.  He's a dude with a job, not a Bengals fan.  Didn't he work the beat in Green Bay before this? I'd imagine if the L.A. Times offered him a job covering the Rams or Chargers for significantly more than he's getting here, he'd be gone.    

Some of the beat guys are way too easy on this team.  Jim and Dehner in particular, with Paul doing as much as trying to carry water for them in their not-so-smart Whitworth disinformation tactic.  Others like P Doc and some of the broadcast guys like Broo and Egger are a little tougher on them.  

Understandable, I guess.  It's probably hard to get great access to an organization if you piss them off by being critical.  Jim isn't Hobson.  He's more Hobson lite.  He doesn't get paid by the team, but he does seem to tread very lightly in his criticisms.

This team would get absolutely murdered by any big-city sports media for what they've done this offseason.