(03-16-2017, 01:12 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Exactly.  And if I were a billionaire and bought the team, we'd have a GM to make free agent decisions.  If the GM and head coach didn't do good jobs, I would fire them.  So, yeah, I could do better than Mike Brown.

 We couldn't do much worse.....unless you count "moral victories" as something to pound your chest over.  At least Paul, and Forrest Gregg, and Sam Wyche got us on episodes of "The Missing Rings".....what's Doofus got?  "The Missing WildCards"?

(03-16-2017, 01:27 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Right... if what you're doing is not working, then maybe you need to try something else.

It's not overly complicated, as some would lead us to believe.......

(03-16-2017, 01:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's not overly complicated, as some would lead us to believe.......

Yes it is.

If it was as simplistic as you suggest then any and all changes would be justified.  Maybe we should have Andy Dalton throw the ball with his feet.  Bengal QBs have been throwing with their hands every year and they have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right?  So why should we expect to win a playoff game if we keep trying the same thing over and over again with the same results.

The fact is that some of the stuff the Bengals are doing is working.  That is why they have won so many games consistently over the last several years. 

People with truly analytical minds try to look at the evidence and see what is working and what is not working.  That is what I try to do.  Too many people around here just see the mistakes the bengals make and never notice that many other teams do the exact same thing.  They claim that the bengals are the "worst in the league" when in fact they are average.  But when I point out that they are average I get attacked for claiming "Every Bengal player is an All Star and none of the coaches ever make any mistakes".  It is ridiculous. 

The fact is that I criticize the Bengals for the things they deserve to be criticized for. I am even going to start a thread to prove it.

All I know is that something has to be done about people insisting that any change at all is justified by the fact that the Bengals have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  There is no logic to that argument.  It makes no sense.  The truth is that it is complicated to see what is working and what is not.  There is so much myth and message board BS flying around that many people do not really know what the truth is.

(03-16-2017, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it is.

If it was as simplistic as you suggest then any and all changes would be justified.  Maybe we should have Andy Dalton throw the ball with his feet.  Bengal QBs have been throwing with their hands every year and they have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right?  So why should we expect to win a playoff game if we keep trying the same thing over and over again with the same results.

The fact is that some of the stuff the Bengals are doing is working.  That is why they have won so many games consistently over the last several years. 

People with truly analytical minds try to look at the evidence and see what is working and what is not working.  That is what I try to do.  Too many people around here just see the mistakes the bengals make and never notice that many other teams do the exact same thing.  They claim that the bengals are the "worst in the league" when in fact they are average.  But when I point out that they are average I get attacked for claiming "Every Bengal player is an All Star and none of the coaches ever make any mistakes".  It is ridiculous. 

The fact is that I criticize the Bengals for the things they deserve to be criticized for. I am even going to start a thread to prove it.

All I know is that something has to be done about people insisting that any change at all is justified by the fact that the Bengals have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  There is no logic to that argument.  It makes no sense.  The truth is that it is complicated to see what is working and what is not.  There is so much myth and message board BS flying around that many people do not really know what the truth is.

You do realize the point of a message board is that people can give their opinions, correct?  Obviously you feel that yours are more justified, that you have better thought process behind them, but that is the same with each and every person who posts here.  Are people prone to hyperbole?  Definitely so, but that is the case with society in general.  This board is no different.

(03-16-2017, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it is.

If it was as simplistic as you suggest then any and all changes would be justified.  Maybe we should have Andy Dalton throw the ball with his feet.  Bengal QBs have been throwing with their hands every year and they have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right?  So why should we expect to win a playoff game if we keep trying the same thing over and over again with the same results.

The fact is that some of the stuff the Bengals are doing is working.  That is why they have won so many games consistently over the last several years. 

People with truly analytical minds try to look at the evidence and see what is working and what is not working.  That is what I try to do.  Too many people around here just see the mistakes the bengals make and never notice that many other teams do the exact same thing.  They claim that the bengals are the "worst in the league" when in fact they are average.  But when I point out that they are average I get attacked for claiming "Every Bengal player is an All Star and none of the coaches ever make any mistakes".  It is ridiculous. 

The fact is that I criticize the Bengals for the things they deserve to be criticized for. I am even going to start a thread to prove it.

All I know is that something has to be done about people insisting that any change at all is justified by the fact that the Bengals have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  There is no logic to that argument.  It makes no sense.  The truth is that it is complicated to see what is working and what is not.  There is so much myth and message board BS flying around that many people do not really know what the truth is.

To a majority of sports fans, average is just as bad as worst in the league. No one wants their team to be average. They want their team to be top 10 in everything. If there's an area that isn't top 10, the fans want to see an effort to improve said area.

Average doesn't win championships, and fans want championships.

(03-16-2017, 03:44 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You do realize the point of a message board is that people can give their opinions, correct?  Obviously you feel that yours are more justified, that you have better thought process behind them, but that is the same with each and every person who posts here.  Are people prone to hyperbole?  Definitely so, but that is the case with society in general.  This board is no different.

People are not entitled to their opinion about what constitutes a logical argument.  To argue that because the Bengals are bad then everything about them is bad violates the "Fallacy of Division".  It is by definition an "illogical" argument.

(03-16-2017, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it is.

If it was as simplistic as you suggest then any and all changes would be justified.  Maybe we should have Andy Dalton throw the ball with his feet.  Bengal QBs have been throwing with their hands every year and they have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right?  So why should we expect to win a playoff game if we keep trying the same thing over and over again with the same results.

The fact is that some of the stuff the Bengals are doing is working.  That is why they have won so many games consistently over the last several years. 

People with truly analytical minds try to look at the evidence and see what is working and what is not working.  That is what I try to do.  Too many people around here just see the mistakes the bengals make and never notice that many other teams do the exact same thing.  They claim that the bengals are the "worst in the league" when in fact they are average.  But when I point out that they are average I get attacked for claiming "Every Bengal player is an All Star and none of the coaches ever make any mistakes".  It is ridiculous. 

The fact is that I criticize the Bengals for the things they deserve to be criticized for. I am even going to start a thread to prove it.

All I know is that something has to be done about people insisting that any change at all is justified by the fact that the Bengals have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  There is no logic to that argument.  It makes no sense.  The truth is that it is complicated to see what is working and what is not.  There is so much myth and message board BS flying around that many people do not really know what the truth is.

.....or......or......or.....maybe, just maybe, if something you've been doing for 30 ***** years the same ***** way has a net negative yield, you'd be smart enough to change direction?  Because that's what the conversation, in context, was about.  Of course, some people, you just can't reach.....they don't have the common sense to take a shit when their gut hurts and their sphincters feel pressure, so they......and their followers......just keep running headlong into a wall five yards in front of them, expecting to take down Jesse Owens in the 100 meters.

(03-16-2017, 03:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To a majority of sports fans, average is just as bad as worst in the league. No one wants their team to be average. They want their team to be top 10 in everything. If there's an area that isn't top 10, the fans want to see an effort to improve said area.

Average doesn't win championships, and fans want championships.

But there is not a single team in the league that has a superstar at every position, and there is not a single championship team that cuts all of its average players every year.

Fans have to set there demands based on reality.  they hav e to figure out which players really are bad and which players would be easiest to replace.  They have no right to cray about nmot having an All Pro at every position.  That is like a child crying because he can't have ice cream for every meal.

Plus sometimes the fan base is just flat out wrong about who they claims is bad and why.

(03-16-2017, 03:44 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You do realize the point of a message board is that people can give their opinions, correct?  Obviously you feel that yours are more justified, that you have better thought process behind them, but that is the same with each and every person who posts here.  Are people prone to hyperbole?  Definitely so, but that is the case with society in general.  This board is no different.

I mean.....there was no hyperbole between you and I there....you said if something doesn't work for 30 years, maybe it's time to try something else.  I noted that it really is that simple.  Like.....I don't know, hire some more freakin scouts,  hire a freakin GM, shit can some lifers....you know, simple.

(03-16-2017, 04:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But there is not a single team in the league that has a superstar at every position, and there is not a single championship team that cuts all of its average players every year.

Fans have to set there demands based on reality.  they hav e to figure out which players really are bad and which players would be easiest to replace.  They have no right to cray about nmot having an All Pro at every position.  That is like a child crying because he can't have ice cream for every meal.

Listen, I understand that. And there are other posters that understand that too. But there are still some people on this board and plenty more fans of the Bengals and other teams that don't care about what's logical. They want the best of everything regardless if it's realistic or not.

I think it is a little simpler than some think.  Get a competent GM.  Expand the scouting department to suitable NFL levels.  Go from there....

(03-16-2017, 03:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it was as simplistic as you suggest then any and all changes would be justified.  Maybe we should have Andy Dalton throw the ball with his feet.  Bengal QBs have been throwing with their hands every year and they have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right?  So why should we expect to win a playoff game if we keep trying the same thing over and over again with the same results.

Wouldn't logic dictate that if a repeated approach isn't yielding the desired end result, that the approach should be re-examined and altered at some point?

Quote:The fact is that some of the stuff the Bengals are doing is working.  That is why they have won so many games consistently over the last several years.

Again brother, the desired end result has to matter. If the 'process' - regardless of experiencing some success along the way - never produces the desired outcome, then where's the value in repeating that exact process over and over?

Quote:People with truly analytical minds try to look at the evidence and see what is working and what is not working.  That is what I try to do.  Too many people around here just see the mistakes the bengals make and never notice that many other teams do the exact same thing.  They claim that the bengals are the "worst in the league" when in fact they are average.  But when I point out that they are average I get attacked for claiming "Every Bengal player is an All Star and none of the coaches ever make any mistakes".  It is ridiculous.  

The 'evidence' suggests that the process/approach isn't producing the needed outcome. The evidence indicates that a new approach (at least in certain areas) is needed. 

Quote:All I know is that something has to be done about people insisting that any change at all is justified by the fact that the Bengals have not won a playoff game in 26 years.  There is no logic to that argument.  It makes no sense.  The truth is that it is complicated to see what is working and what is not.  There is so much myth and message board BS flying around that many people do not really know what the truth is.

You're right, the Bengals have done some things well and they deserve credit for those things. There's other things they haven't done well and they also deserve criticism for those. 

At the end of the day though, the big picture does matter. That 26 year figure isn't just a meaningless throw away number, it's a glaring reminder that in almost 3 decades...this franchise has yet to figure out a formula that gets them past game 17.

(03-16-2017, 04:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Listen, I understand that. And there are other posters that understand that too. But there are still some people on this board and plenty more fans of the Bengals and other teams that don't care about what's logical. They want the best of everything regardless if it's realistic or not.

Right.  Here's the thing though, we have a unique situation to most fanbases......we have to deal with Mike Brown.  His track record speaks for itself, literally.  Without a salary floor and Tobin/Marv's personnel moves and drafts...the 90s would still be alive and well.  The salary floor made him spend, and these people talked him out of players like Krapernick.  

When you tell people their opinions mean squat, and they are "simple", you are going to face some backlash.  I have posted stats, links, articles, etc in the past to back up my opinions, I'm not going to regurgitate them over and over to play someone's marionette.

(03-16-2017, 04:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....or......or......or.....maybe, just maybe, if something you've been doing for 30 ***** years the same ***** way has a net negative yield, you'd be smart enough to change direction? 

Why would I base my opinion on "net negative" when it has been positive for the last few years.

I honestly thought the bengals had a championship caliber team before Dalton went down in '15.  The '05 team, while not as good overall as the '15 team, was a threat to win any game they played.

I don't see what the teams from the '90's have to do with the teams of the last several years. 

People who act like nothing has changed in 26 years just have not paid attention.

(03-16-2017, 04:11 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Wouldn't logic dictate that if a repeated approach isn't yielding the desired end result, that the approach should be re-examined and altered at some point?


Again brother, the desired end result has to matter. If the 'process' - regardless of experiencing some success along the way - never produces the desired outcome, then where's the value in repeating that exact process over and over?


The 'evidence' suggests that the process/approach isn't producing the needed outcome. The evidence indicates that a new approach (at least in certain areas) is needed. 


You're right, the Bengals have done some things well and they deserve credit for those things. There's other things they haven't done well and they also deserve criticism for those. 
At the end of the day though, the big picture does matter. That 26 year figure isn't just a meaningless throw away number, it's a glaring reminder that in almost 3 decades...this franchise has yet to figure out a formula that gets them past game 17.

You, me, and others have indeed given the Bengals their due credit.  I was behind them in extending Burfict, Atkins, Dunlap, Dalton, Green, et al....and gave them a resounding "attaboy" for such moves.  I have praised drafts.....but the fact is, the last two FAs have been utter failures, the last several drafts haven't really produced.  They deserve the flak they're getting, and then some.  They don't have the track record to receive any benefits of any doubts.....just how I, Paul Daughtery, and many others see it.

Try as you might Fred, but you will not get offered Hobs job.

(03-16-2017, 04:13 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right.  Here's the thing though, we have a unique situation to most fanbases......we have to deal with Mike Brown.  His track record speaks for itself, literally.  Without a salary floor and Tobin/Marv's personnel moves and drafts...the 90s would still be alive and well.  The salary floor made him spend, and these people talked him out of players like Krapernick.  

When you tell people their opinions mean squat, and they are "simple", you are going to face some backlash.  I have posted stats, links, articles, etc in the past to back up my opinions, I'm not going to regurgitate them over and over to play someone's marionette.

Right. I understand your point but Fred has a good point too (did I just say that?)

I'll use the analogy of an tech company environment.

It's unrealistic to expect every developer to be a top performer in their field. No company will ever have all top employees in their field, even Google.
However, if there's been a lack of performance and it's been from the same individual or group consistently, that company should probably be looking to find ways to improve those areas. That may involve letting people go to bring in new talent, investing more/differently in improving the person/group's performance, or something else.

What it really comes down to is fans are getting tired of the "status quo" and really want to see some change. The fans expect an organization to make changes that will improve the team in the needed areas, but care most about just seeing SOME change to attempt to improve. Ebb and flow is more exciting than stagnation.

(03-16-2017, 04:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: You, me, and others have indeed given the Bengals their due credit.  I was behind them in extending Burfict, Atkins, Dunlap, Dalton, Green, et al....and gave them a resounding "attaboy" for such moves.  I have praised drafts.....but the fact is, the last two FAs have been utter failures, the last several drafts haven't really produced.  They deserve the flak they're getting, and then some.  They don't have the track record to receive any benefits of any doubts.....just how I, Paul Daughtery, and many others see it.

Yep, and they earned and deserved the credit for things like that. They've also certainly earned and deserved the criticism in other areas. 

(03-16-2017, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would I base my opinion on "net negative" when it has been positive for the last few years.

I honestly thought the bengals had a championship caliber team before Dalton went down in '15.  The '05 team, while not as good overall as the '15 team, was a threat to win any game they played.

I don't see what the teams from the '90's have to do with the teams of the last several years. 

People who act like nothing has changed in 26 years just have not paid attention.

The overall picture for Mike is indeed a negative situation.  I agree that 2015 looked like a year for a run.....but then I don't trust the coaching staff to make that happen, so here we are....hopeful, but the lingering doubt is there and always will be.

Marvin has made this team into a perennial decent club.  Son of Paul still handcuffs him, or he is his own worst enemy.  Either way, it is the GM's duty to produce championships.  So, if one feels that Mike has put forth a team capable of winning, but the results don't show, then one has to say it's the coaches' faults.  Why are they still here?  If one can say, it isn't on the talent level, or the coaching, then you have a shit ton of choke artists on your team.  Blow it up and get winners.  See, it really is kind of a simple concept.  This shit of sticking with the status quo, isn't getting it done.

Personally, I believe without the salary floor, and the guidance of Tobin/Lewis the last several years, this team would still be a cellar dweller.  I believe the carrot is dangled just close enough to keep Marvin and the fans chasing.....but we'll never ink that cat that could put us over the top, and we'll never pay past these ridiculous "player values" the old man institutes to retain our own homegrown talent.  It has to be a "deal".

(03-16-2017, 04:11 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Wouldn't logic dictate that if a repeated approach isn't yielding the desired end result, that the approach should be re-examined and altered at some point?

Yes.  But "re-examined" should not mean "accept message board myth that is not supported by fact".

I'll give you a perfect example.  People here constantly cry about how the Bengals lose so many games because Marvin is too conservative.  But when I ask for examples of games we have lost because Marvin is too conservative the response I often get is "0-7" or "0-13" instead of an actual list of games we lost because he was too conservative.  I post statistics about where the Bengals rank as far as "throwing the ball with a lead in the second half".  I post examples of the Bengals and other teams losing games because they were so aggressive.  I post stats from games where Bill Belichick ran the ball consistently with a lead in the second half.  But none of this matters.  I guarantee that there will still be lots of postrs this year about how Marvin loses a bunch of games because he is too conservative and how he should be more like Belichick who never takes his foot off the gas.


So I am glad to "re-examine" any approach.  All I ask is that people use some sort of logical argument to support their position.