And for people touting Jake Butt...how exactly is he better than Tyler Kroft, especially after his torn ACL? Sure, Kroft hasn't really come on as a solid NFL TE yet, but his scouting reports and college production are very similar to that of Butt. In fact, Kroft was being mentioned to have above average athleticism and a "sneaky" good pass catcher while being a solid blocker. Butt is being labeled as just having average athleticism and limited potential, and being serviceable as a blocker.

I don't see how Jake Butt makes this TE group better, as the Bengals already have a Butt-like player in Tyler Kroft.
If the Bengals want to improve the TE position, they need someone who has true elite athleticism to be a dominant receiving threat while also being able to truly block. A player like Bucky Hodges or Jordan Leggett offers more from a potential standpoint than Jake Butt, but they need to gain more experience as blockers.

So if I'm looking at a TE, I'm looking at Howard at 9, Njoku at 41 (if he's there), and Hodges or Leggett in rounds 3-4. I don't think Engram or Everett makes sense because they look like strictly pass catchers. The Bengals like their TE's 6'4"+ and 245+ lbs, neither of which Engram nor Everett fits.

(04-02-2017, 01:30 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: Hmm, he may be a better blocker, but i'm not down for picking a TE at 9 because he can block. The insurance part is solid if Eifert goes down, but again, picking for insurance at 9 overall? Not for me. This team has never shown it can effectively use a 2 TE set. I especially don't expect Zampese to do that.

You're right the Bengals rarely invest money in TE's, so then WHY IN THE WORLD pick a TE at number 9 overall if they're also going to let him walk in 5 years? Furthermore for a team that doesn't invest in TE's picking 3 in the first round in 7 years!? That would prove the Bengals are incompetent (though I wouldn't put it past them). When you're picking at 9 overall you should be picking a guy who you think can be a franchise player for 10 years, not 5 and dump. 

There is something seriously wrong if a team picks 3 TE's in 7 years in the first, it's such a low position on the totem poll of impact comparatively.

No, you don't pick a TE at 9 because he can block. I never said that. You pick a TE at 9 because he is supposed to be (potentially) the full package and has elite potential. That is what Howard has. He was (one of) the best blocking TE in college in 2016. Yes, his stats were down, but many teams don't draft a player in the first round based mostly on stats. 

If they did, Myles Garrett wouldn't be debated as the top overall pick in the draft. Garrett only had 8.5 sacks and 15.0 TFL, which was surpassed by players like DeMarcus Walker, Derek Barnett, Hunter Dimick, Carl Lawson, etc. Garrett is widely considered the top overall prospect because he has elite athleticism, good (not great) college production, and amazing potential. 

The same goes for Howard, who showed off his elite athleticism at the combine. Many people feel he was vastly underutilized at Alabama. However, he still put up respectable stats for a TE with 602 rec yards and 2 TD in 2015, 595 rec yards and 3 TDs in 2016. Let's compare that to what many people consider the best TE prospect coming out of college this millennium, which is Vernon Davis. Vernon Davis only caught 21 passes for 511 yards and 5 TDs his final year at Maryland, but his athleticism was off the charts and he ended up going 6th overall to SF in 2006. Sure, VD hasn't been the best TE in the league during his career, but he's been pretty good as was a top option in SF for quite a few years.

(04-02-2017, 01:41 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: Howard is not a complete TE by any means. He was an average TE in college. He's terrible in the red zone, he has a whopping 2 touchowns in 4 years in the redzone. 2.

He's hyped up because he did well at the combine. 

You obviously missed the 2016 National Championship Game.

(04-02-2017, 01:41 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: Howard is not a complete TE by any means. He was an average TE in college. He's terrible in the red zone, he has a whopping 2 touchowns in 4 years in the redzone. 2.

He's hyped up because he did well at the combine. 

Howard was considered a top 20 pick way before the combine.  You have guys who scout players for a living for 20 years saying he's the best tight end prospect in the history of the nfl, but let me guess you know better because you don't want to draft him ?  

(04-02-2017, 07:48 PM)Okeana Wrote: Howard was considered a top 20 pick way before the combine.  You have guys who scout players for a living for 20 years saying he's the best tight end prospect in the history of the nfl, but let me guess you know better because you don't want to draft him ?  

No, no, no, you have it all wrong. We should pass up a basically world class athlete. Who was underutilized by a running college team with a defense from hell, that didn't have to air it out much ! For a TE that can block, in a passing NFL, that also has a blown out knee !  

(04-02-2017, 01:30 AM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: There are few players in the top 15 who I want less than O.J. Howard.

People keep saying we don't need a Safety because we have 2 OK starters, or we dont need a LB because we signed an average starter for 1 year. But O.J. Howard would be the 3rd target AT BEST.

I don't see this Bengals coaching staff ever being able to effectively use 2 top TE's. It just doesn't make sense unless they're preparing for Eifert to leave next year, in which case they should trade him now for a 1st+.

His only redeeming qualities to me are that he is athletic(though it doesn't translate to scores) and he can block(in which case they should be going after o-linemen)

Just look at his stats, over 4 years of playing he has a total of 6 touchdowns. SIX, over 4 years...

Howard can catch and run block, he was underutilized in the passing game which is why he only had that many TD's,
Eifert has a big time problem staying healthy and is coming off ANOTHER injury. Ogbuehi needs a guy to help him out
and getting a good blocker like Howard would help him immensely, Eifert is coming into a contract year so Howard
would be great insurance and if we keep Eifert we could have one of the best TE duo's in the NFL.

Another Weapon for Dalton is only a good thing and this one would actually help out the O-line.

The best comparison I have for Howard and his draft status is Demaryious Thomas. How many catches did Thomas have in the Georgia Tech triple option attack? That didn't slow him down from being a great receiver.

Has Eifert completed a full season (16 games) as a Bengals?

If LF and Thomas are gone by 9th, I would say Howard is a good possibility.

(04-03-2017, 10:06 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Has Eifert completed a full season (16 games) as a Bengals?

If LF and Thomas are gone by 9th, I would say Howard is a good possibility.

With the league becoming more and more a passing league, the increasing value in TEs that can both block and catch, plus the fact the Bengals have a poor run-blocking OL, I would actually lean toward OJ Howard over Leonard Fournette. I feel adding Fournette would be like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. The Bengals offense is not a run-first offense built on power. OJ Howard fits the Bengals better than LF.

My issue with TE at 9 is we can get other TE's later that can be very good. Instead of gettng Vernon Davis you get Jordan Reed, is that so bad? This is one of the best TE classes we may have ever seen which makes TE at 9 the only pick I hate worse than WR at 9. Jordan Leggett can be a very very good TE in this league and could be around in the 3rd, Bucky Hodges who we worked out is also another one in that range who could be very good.

(04-03-2017, 10:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: My issue with TE at 9 is we can get other TE's later that can be very good. Instead of gettng Vernon Davis you get Jordan Reed, is that so bad? This is one of the best TE classes we may have ever seen which makes TE at 9 the only pick I hate worse than WR at 9. Jordan Leggett can be a very very good TE in this league and could be around in the 3rd, Bucky Hodges who we worked out is also another one in that range who could be very good.

The difference between those guys and Howard is massive.  Those guys are glorified WR's with poor blocking skills.  Howard is a true inline TE with better wheels, testing numbers, explosion, and yes, he can block.  Alabama underused Howard.  The NFL will not.

I wouldn't be over the moon with the Howard pick because I'm in the pass rusher/Fournette camp but I wouldn't complain about the move at all. Eifert isn't reliable health wise that's all but a fact.

Howard and Foster arent my first choices but still solid none the less.

(04-03-2017, 11:28 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The difference between those guys and Howard is massive.  Those guys are glorified WR's with poor blocking skills.  Howard is a true inline TE with better wheels, testing numbers, explosion, and yes, he can block.  Alabama underused Howard.  The NFL will not.

Every year we pretend like the guys in the mid rounds can't touch the guys in the first round and every year we see that there are mid round guys as good as the first round guys.

Here are some examples specific to TE that are related to Bengals first round TE picks.

We took Gresham in 2010 and Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, and Pitta all were drafted after. You could make an argument talent wise all were as good if not better than Gresham.

We take Eiffert in the 1st in 2013 and Ertz, Kelce, Reed are all drafted after.

We as fans always fall for this narrative that these first round guys are far and away better than the other guys. The reality is the draft is an inexact science and believing one guy is simply far and away better is fool's gold.

(04-03-2017, 11:39 AM)Au165 Wrote: Every year we pretend like the guys in the mid rounds can't touch the guys in the first round and every year we see that there are mid round guys as good as the first round guys.

Here are some examples specific to TE that are related to Bengals first round TE picks.

We took Gresham in 2010 and Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, and Pitta all were drafted after. You could make an argument talent wise all were as good if not better than Gresham.

We take Eiffert in the 1st in 2013 and Ertz, Kelce, Reed are all drafted after.

We as fans always fall for this narrative that these first round guys are far and away better than the other guys. The reality is the draft is an inexact science and believing one guy is simply far and away better is fool's gold.

The reality is if you take Hodges, Engram, Leggett, etc, you're going to have to spend a good amount of time improving their blocking. That means they will likely only be able to be used as a big WR out of the gate. That will mean more limited usage. To become a good TE and be used often with the Bengals, they will need to block well. We saw that happen with Chase Coffman. While he was supposed to be an extremely prolific receiver, he was terrible at blocking, and therefore was never put on the field. So while a 3rd rounder could become as good or better than a 1st rounder, they likely won't be so in their first couple years, at least in the Bengals scheme where they expect their TEs to block well.

I see some concern as to how OJH could be used here..saying he'd be the third or fourth target on the field. While that is true..that wouldn't last long. He'd be target 2b very early behind this Oline giving Dalton 2 sec to throw. Underneath TE routes all day long. TE screens, TE out in the flats. This dude could open up our playbook more than many people think. With the questions at tackle this year, I think it'd be smart to run more 2TE sets. It beefs up the running game, and it helps chip rushers coming to take Ced's lunch.

I'm not sold at all with our depth behind Eifert. Yeah people will say Uzo did a fine job...but did he really? I think he had a couple splash plays then disappeared for the rest of the year. And Kroft?..lol...Kroft warmed the bench all year after playing sparingly his rookie year.

Even if Barnett is there, if OJH is still on the board I'm running up to the podium. A situational pass rusher with one or two moves in a draft deep at the position vs a complete TE that could help our Offense in multiple ways many experts are viewing as a once-in-a-decade talent?! Yep..OJ-All-Day!

(04-03-2017, 11:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The reality is if you take Hodges, Engram, Leggett, etc, you're going to have to spend a good amount of time improving their blocking. That means they will likely only be able to be used as a big WR out of the gate. That will mean more limited usage. To become a good TE and be used often with the Bengals, they will need to block well. We saw that happen with Chase Coffman. While he was supposed to be an extremely prolific receiver, he was terrible at blocking, and therefore was never put on the field. So while a 3rd rounder could become as good or better than a 1st rounder, they likely won't be so in their first couple years, at least in the Bengals scheme where they expect their TEs to block well.

We use our TE's and backs to block the least of almost any team in the NFL on passing downs. As for running, willing blockers at TE will make them average blockers at TE. Jordan Reed didn't come out as much of a blocker but you make sacrifices for the talent they bring. I am not drafting a guy two rounds earlier with a top 10 pick because he gives you a little more in run blocking. We already have Eiffert and Kroft TE is a luxury pick at this point and to me that luxury could be had in the third.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but the infatuation with Howard is interesting. The last 7 or so years of 1st round TE's has been pretty miss compared to 2nd-3rd round picks.

(04-03-2017, 10:35 AM)ochocincos Wrote: With the league becoming more and more a passing league, the increasing value in TEs that can both block and catch, plus the fact the Bengals have a poor run-blocking OL, I would actually lean toward OJ Howard over Leonard Fournette. I feel adding Fournette would be like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. The Bengals offense is not a run-first offense built on power. OJ Howard fits the Bengals better than LF.

If it came down to Howard or LF at 9h, that would be tough for me.  I am starting to like the idea of Howard because Eifert is made of glass and the thought of Howard, Eifert (if healthy) an Green on the same field is great for red zone.  LF is rare talent but I understand without blocking, he may not be the best fit.  Hard to say.  IF the Bengals grab a good guard and Center, then LF  with Butt in the 4th may be good combo.

(04-03-2017, 12:26 PM)Au165 Wrote: We use our TE's and backs to block the least of almost any team in the NFL on passing downs. As for running, willing blockers at TE will make them average blockers at TE. Jordan Reed didn't come out as much of a blocker but you make sacrifices for the talent they bring. I am not drafting a guy two rounds earlier with a top 10 pick because he gives you a little more in run blocking. We already have Eiffert and Kroft TE is a luxury pick at this point and to me that luxury could be had in the third.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but the infatuation with Howard is interesting. The last 7 or so years of 1st round TE's has been pretty miss compared to 2nd-3rd round picks.

That's fair. But then who really is better for the #9 pick?

The league is continuing to deemphasize the RB position to the point you can spend a mid-late round pick and get good production. Plus, LF might not dominate given the poor quality of run blocking the OL has done recently.
DE is debatable because while Barnett had great production in college, he is limited athletically.
WR could make sense, but I think it made more sense if the Bengals didn't re-sign LaFell. Now I think they wait until the middle rounds to get another WR to groom. A WR in the first will likely get just as much or less offensive snaps than Howard.
I hope no CB because the Bengals have enough depth at CB.
I could maybe see safety if Adams or Hooker is available, but how often would they get used? Would the Bengals be willing to push Shawn Williams to nickel LB to get a first round safety on the field?

I think Howard makes the most sense because he would fit this offense well, would provide a great red zone weapon, and would provide good insurance for if/when Eifert gets injured and potentially leave in FA next year. Some might say, "Well, if a deal can't be worked out, just tag Eifert." Given the tag amount is just short of $10 million, that seems unlikely the Bengals would use the Franchise Tag. It's very feasible the Bengals take the "luxury" TE for this year and only have to dedicate about $3 million for the #9 overall pick (2016 #9 overall only only counted $2.8 mill toward the cap), then they only approach $5 million by the end of the fourth year. So it makes sense from a Bengals financial perspective.

As a rookie, I see Howard being able to contribute both as a blocker and receiving weapon (especially in the red zone). Then take over as TE1 after Eifert leaves in FA in 2018.

(04-03-2017, 11:39 AM)Au165 Wrote: Every year we pretend like the guys in the mid rounds can't touch the guys in the first round and every year we see that there are mid round guys as good as the first round guys.

Here are some examples specific to TE that are related to Bengals first round TE picks.

We took Gresham in 2010 and Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, and Pitta all were drafted after. You could make an argument talent wise all were as good if not better than Gresham.

We take Eiffert in the 1st in 2013 and Ertz, Kelce, Reed are all drafted after.

We as fans always fall for this narrative that these first round guys are far and away better than the other guys. The reality is the draft is an inexact science and believing one guy is simply far and away better is fool's gold.

you know what shuts down your entire argument ? the fact any pick at 9 you can say the exact same thing.  

(04-03-2017, 01:02 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: If it came down to Howard or LF at 9h, that would be tough for me.  I am starting to like the idea of Howard because Eifert is made of glass and the thought of Howard, Eifert (if healthy) an Green on the same field is great for red zone.  LF is rare talent but I understand without blocking, he may not be the best fit.  Hard to say.  IF the Bengals grab a good guard and Center, then LF  with Butt in the 4th may be good combo.

You don't have to have one or the other when it comes to Howard and Eifert.  Its two amazing weapons you can have on the field at the same time.