I thought it would be easier and less of a derailment for other existing Draft Grade threads to go with my own post draft thread. I made no bones before the draft of how I felt about a few people, and I haven't hidden the fact after the draft that I'm disappointed with the direction we went.
Sooo... I'll go pick by pick on why this wasn't a draft I cared much for. The grades are mostly low, but I'll explain why with each.

Pick 1 — John Ross. My Grade: D
This one is a mix of reasons, moreso than most of the rest.
First up is just overall team need. We needed DL and there were several good ones on the board. We could've gone with a standout LB, even though I don't think it's a huge need. We could've gone safety and improved that spot. We could've gone TE given the question mark there.
But instead we went wide receiver. Despite having several recent picks there, a re-signed FA and one of the leagues best. As far as picking to fill a need, this was an F.
Then there's Ross himself. He's not a bad receiver, but he is reliant on his speed at this point (cutting him some slack, he is a rookie) and doesn't have a lot outside of that. That's not a bad thing as speed is touchdowns. It is a bad thing with a guy who has a history of injuries that could hinder the speed.
In other words, he's a boom or bust pick. Just like Ogbuehi a couple years ago. I hated that pick, too, not because he was injured, but because the injury meant he was going to be years away from contirbuting. It takes time to condition and learn. Ogbeuhi was nowhere near ready, or worthy of the pick.
Ross is similar in that regard.
If he stays healthy (long-term), he's got a short window to get healthy (there was already draft talk of PUP), learn the spot, and contribute... and learn how to be more than just a fast guy. Because that window will be short. Oh, and lots of guys have injury concerns. But this is the Bengals... our injury history with guys isn't glowing.
And yeah, when that window is open, he could be a game changer as far as opening up the long ball. Looking back over the Marvin years, it will be a surprise if he's used that way.

Pick 2 — Joe Mixon: C
A mix here, too.
There is not a better back who fit the Bengals scheme than Joe Mixon. The biggest problem was, again, he wasn't a huge need. And, like Ross, probably a reach for when he was picked. The team could've dropped back and picked him up later... just like Ross.
With the needs we had and who was available, he wasn't a good pick.
As far as Who is Joe Mixon and the divisiveness that comes with it, I'll say this: people who complain about the crap the Bengals get for being a team of thugs, but cheer the Mixon pick... you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If we're going to keep Pacman, Mixon, Vontez and others who stumble along the way, we're going to keep that reputation.
Personally, I don't have a big issue with it. Just realize, Joe Mixon is no different than Ray Rice. And only one team took the high ground there.

Pick 3 — Jordan Willis: (not a shocker to many) A
Finally, a pick at a place where we're woefully short on talent. Willis is a good player who should have gone earlier in the draft. He should see some considerable playing time in a season or two, and could get worked into the mix some next season. Probably the only player I really felt improved the team at a position that needed improving.

Pick 4 — Carl Lawson: C
Position of need, so it goes up a bit. But another with a history of injury.
I took some flack a few years ago when I criticized taking Luigs. At the time I said I doubted he would ever play in the NFL for much the same reason I doubt Lawson will: his hips.
Unlike Ross, I'm not overly worried about his knee. But Lawson plays with stiff hips.
Which is too bad. If it's a lingering injury issue, that doesn't bode well for becoming a pro. If not, then it's (hopefully) something that be coached out of him.

Pick 5 — Josh Malone: D
Not a bad player, but it's like our approach to corners. We're just trhowing darts and hoarding players. Malone will probably make the team given the position of his pick, but unless there's an injury, it's doubtful he makes it too far up the depth chart.
We aren't going five wide. We won't see Malone if everyone stays healthy. Why not take a pick at a spot of need?
Just a head scratcher.

Pick 6 — Ryan Glasgow: B
Another position of need. Most likely a rotational guy, but not bad depth. Most likely will give Billings a breather, but I'm not sold on Billings, either.

Pick 7— Jake Elliot: C
We needed a kicker, we took a kicker. Seemed high as he doesn't seem like a standout... even for a kicker... but at least we did something to fill a need.

Pick 8 — JJ Deilman: F
Another big need, another guy with injury concerns. Not entirely surprised with picking a guy who is projected to be a C/G. I just thought they'd pick a better one.
I will be surprised if he's here in 3 years.

Pick 9, 10, 11 — D
Camp bodies. Not much to get excited about. Given the laundry list of linemen, TE, WR and CB, doubtful any of these guys are here next year.



Soooo, there ya go. I felt good about last year's draft. I hated the year before and I liked this one even left. We didn't address needs, we took some gambles (health-wise) for the future and we added another target for league/media scorn. All in all, not what I was expecting in a draft where we had high picks and a lot of talent at areas of need.

Running back isn't a huge need? Hill has performance issues, gio is hurt, burkhead is gone.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

I agree mostly Benton,

I mean I wanted an offense heavy draft but I didn't see Ross and Mixon coming !

Marvin and Co. are hanging their hats on Ogbuehi and Fisher vastly improving and Smith (a player they didn't want a couple years ago) being able to stay healthy and switch positions. Not to mention Bodine and his questionable play.

I strongly believe this teams success hangs on the O-line and they've basically done nothing to address it since they let Whit and Zeitler walk.

I hope I'm wrong but I see this draft as having a large potential for being a major flop !

I gave the draft much higher grades than you because I believe that selecting the BPA is a much better draft philosophy than chasing needs. The Bengals chased needs in the draft all through the 90s. It was only when we changed our draft philosophy that the Bengals became a perennial contender.

(04-30-2017, 09:56 PM)Benton Wrote: I thought it would be easier and less of a derailment for other existing Draft Grade threads to go with my own post draft thread. I made no bones before the draft of how I felt about a few people, and I haven't hidden the fact after the draft that I'm disappointed with the direction we went.
Sooo... I'll go pick by pick on why this wasn't a draft I cared much for. The grades are mostly low, but I'll explain why with each.

Pick 1 — John Ross. My Grade: D
This one is a mix of reasons, moreso than most of the rest.
First up is just overall team need. We needed DL and there were several good ones on the board. We could've gone with a standout LB, even though I don't think it's a huge need. We could've gone safety and improved that spot. We could've gone TE given the question mark there.
But instead we went wide receiver. Despite having several recent picks there, a re-signed FA and one of the leagues best. As far as picking to fill a need, this was an F.
Then there's Ross himself. He's not a bad receiver, but he is reliant on his speed at this point (cutting him some slack, he is a rookie) and doesn't have a lot outside of that. That's not a bad thing as speed is touchdowns. It is a bad thing with a guy who has a history of injuries that could hinder the speed.
In other words, he's a boom or bust pick. Just like Ogbuehi a couple years ago. I hated that pick, too, not because he was injured, but because the injury meant he was going to be years away from contirbuting. It takes time to condition and learn. Ogbeuhi was nowhere near ready, or worthy of the pick.
Ross is similar in that regard.
If he stays healthy (long-term), he's got a short window to get healthy (there was already draft  talk of PUP), learn the spot, and contribute... and learn how to be more than just a fast guy. Because that window will be short. Oh, and lots of guys have injury concerns. But this is the Bengals... our injury history with guys isn't glowing.
And yeah, when that window is open, he could be a game changer as far as opening up the long ball. Looking back over the Marvin years, it will be a surprise if he's used that way.

Pick 2 — Joe Mixon: C
A mix here, too.
There is not a better back who fit the Bengals scheme than Joe Mixon. The biggest problem was, again, he wasn't a huge need. And, like Ross, probably a reach for when he was picked. The team could've dropped back and picked him up later... just like Ross.
With the needs we had and who was available, he wasn't a good pick.
As far as Who is Joe Mixon and the divisiveness that comes with it, I'll say this: people who complain about the crap the Bengals get for being a team of thugs, but cheer the Mixon pick... you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If we're going to keep Pacman, Mixon, Vontez and others who stumble along the way, we're going to keep that reputation.
Personally, I don't have a big issue with it. Just realize, Joe Mixon is no different than Ray Rice. And only one team took the high ground there.

Pick 3 — Jordan Willis: (not a shocker to many) A
Finally, a pick at a place where we're woefully short on talent. Willis is a good player who should have gone earlier in the draft. He should see some considerable playing time in a season or two, and could get worked into the mix some next season. Probably the only player I really felt improved the team at a position that needed improving.

Pick 4 — Carl Lawson: C
Position of need, so it goes up a bit. But another with a history of injury.
I took some flack a few years ago when I criticized taking Luigs. At the time I said I doubted he would ever play in the NFL for much the same reason I doubt Lawson will: his hips.
Unlike Ross, I'm not overly worried about his knee. But Lawson plays with stiff hips.
Which is too bad. If it's a lingering injury issue, that doesn't bode well for becoming a pro. If not, then it's (hopefully) something that be coached out of him.

Pick 5 — Josh Malone: D
Not a bad player, but it's like our approach to corners. We're just trhowing darts and hoarding players. Malone will probably make the team given the position of his pick, but unless there's an injury, it's doubtful he makes it too far up the depth chart.
We aren't going five wide. We won't see Malone if everyone stays healthy. Why not take a pick at a spot of need?
Just a head scratcher.

Pick 6 — Ryan Glasgow: B
Another position of need. Most likely a rotational guy, but not bad depth. Most likely will give Billings a breather, but I'm not sold on Billings, either.

Pick 7— Jake Elliot: C
We needed a kicker, we took a kicker. Seemed high as he doesn't seem like a standout... even for a kicker... but at least we did something to fill a need.

Pick 8 — JJ Deilman: F
Another big need, another guy with injury concerns. Not entirely surprised with picking a guy who is projected to be a C/G. I just thought they'd pick a better one.
I will be surprised if he's here in 3 years.

Pick 9, 10, 11 — D
Camp bodies. Not much to get excited about. Given the laundry list of linemen, TE, WR and CB, doubtful any of these guys are here next year.



Soooo, there ya go. I felt good about last year's draft. I hated the year before and I liked this one even left. We didn't address needs, we took some gambles (health-wise) for the future and we added another target for league/media scorn. All in all, not what I was expecting in a draft where we had high picks and a lot of talent at areas of need.

Agree.   Also agree with you about the Deilman pick. Made me mad cause it just seemed like such a half ass attempt to upgrade a position. I actually like the Wilson kid. But he will be nothing more than a ST player, but a good one.

(04-30-2017, 10:20 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree mostly Benton,

I mean I wanted an offense heavy draft but I didn't see Ross and Mixon coming !

Marvin and Co. are hanging their hats on Ogbuehi and Fisher vastly improving and Smith (a player they didn't want a couple years ago) being able to stay healthy and switch positions. Not to mention Bodine and his questionable play.

I strongly believe this teams success hangs on the O-line and they've basically done nothing to address it since they let Whit and Zeitler walk.

I hope I'm wrong but I see this draft as having a large potential for being a major flop !

There were very few quality OL picks available to Bengals without reaching. Now, FA is a whole different story.

(04-30-2017, 09:56 PM)Benton Wrote: I thought it would be easier and less of a derailment for other existing Draft Grade threads to go with my own post draft thread. I made no bones before the draft of how I felt about a few people, and I haven't hidden the fact after the draft that I'm disappointed with the direction we went.
Sooo... I'll go pick by pick on why this wasn't a draft I cared much for. The grades are mostly low, but I'll explain why with each.

Pick 1 — John Ross. My Grade: D
This one is a mix of reasons, moreso than most of the rest.
First up is just overall team need. We needed DL and there were several good ones on the board. We could've gone with a standout LB, even though I don't think it's a huge need. We could've gone safety and improved that spot. We could've gone TE given the question mark there.
But instead we went wide receiver. Despite having several recent picks there, a re-signed FA and one of the leagues best. As far as picking to fill a need, this was an F.
Then there's Ross himself. He's not a bad receiver, but he is reliant on his speed at this point (cutting him some slack, he is a rookie) and doesn't have a lot outside of that. That's not a bad thing as speed is touchdowns. It is a bad thing with a guy who has a history of injuries that could hinder the speed.
In other words, he's a boom or bust pick. Just like Ogbuehi a couple years ago. I hated that pick, too, not because he was injured, but because the injury meant he was going to be years away from contirbuting. It takes time to condition and learn. Ogbeuhi was nowhere near ready, or worthy of the pick.
Ross is similar in that regard.
If he stays healthy (long-term), he's got a short window to get healthy (there was already draft  talk of PUP), learn the spot, and contribute... and learn how to be more than just a fast guy. Because that window will be short. Oh, and lots of guys have injury concerns. But this is the Bengals... our injury history with guys isn't glowing.
And yeah, when that window is open, he could be a game changer as far as opening up the long ball. Looking back over the Marvin years, it will be a surprise if he's used that way.

Pick 2 — Joe Mixon: C
A mix here, too.
There is not a better back who fit the Bengals scheme than Joe Mixon. The biggest problem was, again, he wasn't a huge need. And, like Ross, probably a reach for when he was picked. The team could've dropped back and picked him up later... just like Ross.
With the needs we had and who was available, he wasn't a good pick.
As far as Who is Joe Mixon and the divisiveness that comes with it, I'll say this: people who complain about the crap the Bengals get for being a team of thugs, but cheer the Mixon pick... you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If we're going to keep Pacman, Mixon, Vontez and others who stumble along the way, we're going to keep that reputation.
Personally, I don't have a big issue with it. Just realize, Joe Mixon is no different than Ray Rice. And only one team took the high ground there.

Pick 3 — Jordan Willis: (not a shocker to many) A
Finally, a pick at a place where we're woefully short on talent. Willis is a good player who should have gone earlier in the draft. He should see some considerable playing time in a season or two, and could get worked into the mix some next season. Probably the only player I really felt improved the team at a position that needed improving.

Pick 4 — Carl Lawson: C
Position of need, so it goes up a bit. But another with a history of injury.
I took some flack a few years ago when I criticized taking Luigs. At the time I said I doubted he would ever play in the NFL for much the same reason I doubt Lawson will: his hips.
Unlike Ross, I'm not overly worried about his knee. But Lawson plays with stiff hips.
Which is too bad. If it's a lingering injury issue, that doesn't bode well for becoming a pro. If not, then it's (hopefully) something that be coached out of him.

Pick 5 — Josh Malone: D
Not a bad player, but it's like our approach to corners. We're just trhowing darts and hoarding players. Malone will probably make the team given the position of his pick, but unless there's an injury, it's doubtful he makes it too far up the depth chart.
We aren't going five wide. We won't see Malone if everyone stays healthy. Why not take a pick at a spot of need?
Just a head scratcher.

Pick 6 — Ryan Glasgow: B
Another position of need. Most likely a rotational guy, but not bad depth. Most likely will give Billings a breather, but I'm not sold on Billings, either.

Pick 7— Jake Elliot: C
We needed a kicker, we took a kicker. Seemed high as he doesn't seem like a standout... even for a kicker... but at least we did something to fill a need.

Pick 8 — JJ Deilman: F
Another big need, another guy with injury concerns. Not entirely surprised with picking a guy who is projected to be a C/G. I just thought they'd pick a better one.
I will be surprised if he's here in 3 years.

Pick 9, 10, 11 — D
Camp bodies. Not much to get excited about. Given the laundry list of linemen, TE, WR and CB, doubtful any of these guys are here next year.



Soooo, there ya go. I felt good about last year's draft. I hated the year before and I liked this one even left. We didn't address needs, we took some gambles (health-wise) for the future and we added another target for league/media scorn. All in all, not what I was expecting in a draft where we had high picks and a lot of talent at areas of need.

Pick 1 - I agree that this was not really a position of need. Nothing wrong with our top 3 of Green, LaFell, and Boyd. Does not Core offer the speed to go with Green? Why add another when we have that attribute with a year of the system under his belt. Doesn't Erickson's vision and savvy contribute enough? It seems that he hasn't approached his ceiling yet. Even if Kumerow hasn't taken many snaps, he's another with the system and some chemistry established with Dalton. This is a group that more than satisfies our need there, and couple it with our TE's and catching ability of our RB's, this was the last position we needed to spend a first round pick on. Helluva way to improve our Oline ..... and yeah, I know this wasn't a strong Oline draft. But we blow it in the years it is, so there's that.

Pick 2 - All things considered (as of 10 minutes ago), I believe Mixon will give us much needed production. But part of my belief here is Giovanni apparently is not going to be ready early in the season. And I mean 'fully-recovered' ready. Also a reason why I'm still pissed at losing Burkhead, though I think Mixon will ultimately be superior to Burkhead's best in the long run. 

Pick 3 - Yes, yes, and yes. Long term keeper with this pick.

Pick 4 - I did not know enough about him to be concerned about his hips. Injuries seem to pop up a lot for us, so why we pick guys who struggle with them baffles me. 

As for the rest I'm looking at practice squad potential or they wind up getting cut. Nothing exciting to see here imho. 

Overall grade of C, at best.

I watched some Ross tape. All he has is speed?

He runs decent-to-good routes, he head fakes people out like Allen Iverson does. And he didn't do it against a bunch of nobodies, he did it against a first round pick this year. He needs to work on some things, he needs to add some weight and a bit more strength and add some polish, but every rookie needs work.

I mean, I'm not super hyped on Ross either, but AJ needs help and our offense needs speed. Ross is the fastest player in football and he's already a decent route runner. It ain't a rated D pick man. Bengals definitely wasn't drafting CB or a Safety and the DL guy has degenerative arthritis in his shoulders. I'd have been excited with Foster at 9 too, or OJ Howard, but I guess they are happy with Kroft and the other guy as back ups right now.

I don't know if I like Mixon, but I definitely didn't like Cook. Off field concerns are why I don't like either player, but I think Mixon is the lesser of the 2 evils and I get why they drafted him. First round talent, ton of value at the spot and was even able to trade down to get the guy, Mixon can add a lot of talent to the RB position and the Bengals look like they are trying to win this year with an easier schedule to boot.

We didn't really try to address OL in this draft. I'm actually happy we didn't. There really wasn't a whole lot of guys that could have immediately helped the issue this year-which the line needs help RIGHT NOW. I'd rather wait and try to draft another OL when the pool is stronger. Guess our coaches will have to teach them how to run block better so Andy can get more time to throw. Andre should help with that, and maybe add another guy when cuts come.

(04-30-2017, 10:20 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree mostly Benton,

I mean I wanted an offense heavy draft but I didn't see Ross and Mixon coming !

Marvin and Co. are hanging their hats on Ogbuehi and Fisher vastly improving and Smith (a player they didn't want a couple years ago) being able to stay healthy and switch positions. Not to mention Bodine and his questionable play.

I strongly believe this teams success hangs on the O-line and they've basically done nothing to address it since they let Whit and Zeitler walk.

I hope I'm wrong but I see this draft as having a large potential for being a major flop !

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

I gave it higher grade, but couldn't give the popular A grade a lot of people did.

I agree on the injuries. This is one of our more risky drafts in years and you'd think the team would have learned from the Ogbuehi pick, but they seem to believe he'll come around after a disastrous sophomore campaign. Maybe he will, but look at what he did to the whole season last year, and he goes and ends last year on IR. Ogbuehi has missed both training camps from injury and so far he's been a wasted pick where we could have gotten 2 good years out of someone else.

In looking back to the Dennard pick 4 years ago he was a guy who wasn't going to play much for awhile and we could have selected someone who actually started and would have contribute so much in those 4 years. Ross needs to stay healthy or he's simply going to be a wasted top 10 pick.

I would have done many things differently in this draft. I was watching the draft with a Bears fan friend on mine and when we got to the 8th pick and Carolina was on the board, I said, "If Allen is still there the Bengals are going to run to the podium with his name on their card, or maybe they take Hooker to replace what Reggie Nelson brought to the defense. Didn't imagine either of these guys being there." Ross was no where in the conversation at the 9th pick.

Ross simply was not the best player available at #9. It was a need for outside speed that drove this pick so much that they ignored his injury history and I viewed the pick as a "draft for a need over proven talent" pick. This reminded me most of the 90s draft philosophy of reaching for need and hoping for the best.

When the 2nd round started I was ecstatic that Lamp was still on the board and was hoping we'd try to trade up and grab him. He'd be an immediate upgrade over Bodine or would have held down the RG spot for years to come.

I did like that the team recognized that they could traded down and still get Mixon. Too bad they didn't see that for the Ross pick cause they likely could have traded down quite a bit and still got him. His injury history crossed him off several team's boards according to one of the talking heads on NFLN.

Sounds like a lot of convoluted logic to me.

1.  I was with you on WR not being a big enough need to use the #9 pick until you said you woukld have been fine with a safety.

2.  The fact that you think Ross is nothing but a speed only guy proves you don't know much about the draft prospects.

2.  Claiming RB is not a big need is a joke.  Gio is injured.  Burkehead is gone, and it has been three years since Hill looked special.

3.  Praising the Ravens as morally superior to the Bengals?   If Rice still had skills he would still be playing for the Ravens.  Just like Rey Lewis.

4.  How can you trash the Malone pick just because he was not a d-lineman when they took a D-lineman with the very next pick.  Malone is a greta talent and will upgrade the bottom  of the roster.  for a guy who seems super paranoid about any player who has ever had any injury shouldn't you appretiate depth at a position?

5.  If Dielman was so bad then which available O-lineman would have earned an "A" grade with that pick?  What players would have gotten an A grade with the 9, 10, 11 picks?

6.  What have yoi seen in Fejedelem and/or Smith to make you think they are locks to beat out "camp body" Brandon Wilson for a roster spot?

(04-30-2017, 10:25 PM)Beaker Wrote: I gave the draft much higher grades than you because I believe that selecting the BPA is a much better draft philosophy than chasing needs. The Bengals chased needs in the draft all through the 90s. It was only when we changed our draft philosophy that the Bengals became a perennial contender.

I don't disagree that it's better to take a better player than it is to take a lesser one.

Unfortunately, if you stick with that philosophy without developing higher round guys, you end up with what we've got now. We've had too many CBs and receivers playing to develop picks, but not enough good players on either line to step in. You've got to balance BPA with need. So either we need to be more flexible with BPA, or we need to do a better job of developing guys.

(04-30-2017, 10:32 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Agree.   Also agree with you about the Deilman pick. Made me mad cause it just seemed like such a half ass attempt to upgrade a position. I actually like the Wilson kid. But he will be nothing more than a ST player, but a good one.

I don't think he was an attempt to upgrade. I think it was more of a 'can't hurt, we can plug him in anywhere from TE to C if we need to.'

Which isn't what we needed.

(04-30-2017, 10:39 PM)Derrick Wrote: There were very few quality OL picks available to Bengals without reaching. Now, FA is a whole different story.

Agreed. Although I wouldn't have complained with Elflein instead of Mixon. A guy that can play center or guard, but better than Deilman. And probably not as polarizing as Mixon.

(04-30-2017, 10:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote:   Malone is a greta talent and will upgrade the bottom  of the roster. 
 

I'll leave the rest alone as you aren't really making any points for discussion, you're just trying to goad someone into a reaction. Hopefully no one responds.

But this did make me chuckle.

I could care less about the bottom of the roster when we've got plenty of room at the top of it. You're basically calling him the fuzzy dice in a rusted out El Camino.

I definitely have mixed feelings on this draft too. I was hoping they took a 'meat n potato' approach to upgrading the team, but instead took a more flashy approach. Which is a bit scary for example when the offense gave up the most sacks, and the two guys that left gave up one sack between them. To say they are rolling the dice is an understatement of epic proportions. Either they will look like geniuses, or McCarron will be done by week 12 as Andy already took his pummeling.

Anyways like all drafts, we have no clue how it will pan out. Chances are half of these guys will either be cut or on the practice squad. And the rest will be in backup or rotational roles for this season. If we are lucky, 2 to 3 of them will be quality starters in a couple of years, with a couple others being very serviceable. And if recent past drafts tell us anything, this one will probably end up being quite meh overall. Just need to cross the fingers to break that trend, cause we do need quite a few of these players to pan out on the pro level.
my grade : n/a

(04-30-2017, 09:56 PM)Benton Wrote: I thought it would be easier and less of a derailment for other existing Draft Grade threads to go with my own post draft thread. I made no bones before the draft of how I felt about a few people, and I haven't hidden the fact after the draft that I'm disappointed with the direction we went.
Sooo... I'll go pick by pick on why this wasn't a draft I cared much for. The grades are mostly low, but I'll explain why with each.

Pick 1 — John Ross. My Grade: D
This one is a mix of reasons, moreso than most of the rest.
First up is just overall team need. We needed DL and there were several good ones on the board. We could've gone with a standout LB, even though I don't think it's a huge need. We could've gone safety and improved that spot. We could've gone TE given the question mark there.
But instead we went wide receiver. Despite having several recent picks there, a re-signed FA and one of the leagues best. As far as picking to fill a need, this was an F.
Then there's Ross himself. He's not a bad receiver, but he is reliant on his speed at this point (cutting him some slack, he is a rookie) and doesn't have a lot outside of that. That's not a bad thing as speed is touchdowns. It is a bad thing with a guy who has a history of injuries that could hinder the speed.
In other words, he's a boom or bust pick. Just like Ogbuehi a couple years ago. I hated that pick, too, not because he was injured, but because the injury meant he was going to be years away from contirbuting. It takes time to condition and learn. Ogbeuhi was nowhere near ready, or worthy of the pick.
Ross is similar in that regard.
If he stays healthy (long-term), he's got a short window to get healthy (there was already draft  talk of PUP), learn the spot, and contribute... and learn how to be more than just a fast guy. Because that window will be short. Oh, and lots of guys have injury concerns. But this is the Bengals... our injury history with guys isn't glowing.
And yeah, when that window is open, he could be a game changer as far as opening up the long ball. Looking back over the Marvin years, it will be a surprise if he's used that way.

Pick 2 — Joe Mixon: C
A mix here, too.
There is not a better back who fit the Bengals scheme than Joe Mixon. The biggest problem was, again, he wasn't a huge need. And, like Ross, probably a reach for when he was picked. The team could've dropped back and picked him up later... just like Ross.
With the needs we had and who was available, he wasn't a good pick.
As far as Who is Joe Mixon and the divisiveness that comes with it, I'll say this: people who complain about the crap the Bengals get for being a team of thugs, but cheer the Mixon pick... you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If we're going to keep Pacman, Mixon, Vontez and others who stumble along the way, we're going to keep that reputation.
Personally, I don't have a big issue with it. Just realize, Joe Mixon is no different than Ray Rice. And only one team took the high ground there.

Pick 3 — Jordan Willis: (not a shocker to many) A
Finally, a pick at a place where we're woefully short on talent. Willis is a good player who should have gone earlier in the draft. He should see some considerable playing time in a season or two, and could get worked into the mix some next season. Probably the only player I really felt improved the team at a position that needed improving.

Pick 4 — Carl Lawson: C
Position of need, so it goes up a bit. But another with a history of injury.
I took some flack a few years ago when I criticized taking Luigs. At the time I said I doubted he would ever play in the NFL for much the same reason I doubt Lawson will: his hips.
Unlike Ross, I'm not overly worried about his knee. But Lawson plays with stiff hips.
Which is too bad. If it's a lingering injury issue, that doesn't bode well for becoming a pro. If not, then it's (hopefully) something that be coached out of him.

Pick 5 — Josh Malone: D
Not a bad player, but it's like our approach to corners. We're just trhowing darts and hoarding players. Malone will probably make the team given the position of his pick, but unless there's an injury, it's doubtful he makes it too far up the depth chart.
We aren't going five wide. We won't see Malone if everyone stays healthy. Why not take a pick at a spot of need?
Just a head scratcher.

Pick 6 — Ryan Glasgow: B
Another position of need. Most likely a rotational guy, but not bad depth. Most likely will give Billings a breather, but I'm not sold on Billings, either.

Pick 7— Jake Elliot: C
We needed a kicker, we took a kicker. Seemed high as he doesn't seem like a standout... even for a kicker... but at least we did something to fill a need.

Pick 8 — JJ Deilman: F
Another big need, another guy with injury concerns. Not entirely surprised with picking a guy who is projected to be a C/G. I just thought they'd pick a better one.
I will be surprised if he's here in 3 years.

Pick 9, 10, 11 — D
Camp bodies. Not much to get excited about. Given the laundry list of linemen, TE, WR and CB, doubtful any of these guys are here next year.



Soooo, there ya go. I felt good about last year's draft. I hated the year before and I liked this one even left. We didn't address needs, we took some gambles (health-wise) for the future and we added another target for league/media scorn. All in all, not what I was expecting in a draft where we had high picks and a lot of talent at areas of need.

1.I would make the argument here that DL being a bigger need than WR is a highly subjective point of view.  In fact, it is impossible to make that argument statistically.  We were tied for 19th in sacks last year and 26th in passing TD's.  To further that point, we were 8th in scoring defense last year and 24th in scoring offense.  I realise that some favor the "build through the trenches" philosophy or the "build a dominant defense" philosophy, but unbiased statistical analysis would indicate that offense was a bigger need than defense.  Your critique of this pick also fails to take into account larger draft strategy.  This draft was very deep with pass rushers, and they took the WR that would have a great immediate impact over the pass rusher because they knew they could get a quality DE later and would not be able to get an impact player at WR later.

As far as the critique of Ross as a player, I see some valid concerns and some false statements.  He led the nation in red zone TD's last year with 12, which debunks the "he's nothing but speed" critique.  He has great agility and quickness, and does a great job of using jab steps to get DB's out of position.  His knees are currently healthy, although I understand some degree of concern going forward.  He played through his shoulder injury since week 5 and waited until after his Pro Day to have surgery, and he said in his news conference after the draft that he will be ready for TC.  It should also be noted that the top rated LB and S at that pick have also had shoulder surgery during the off-season.

2.I can't really see how RB wasn't a need with Burkhead's departure, Gio's injury, Hill's decline, and the overall poor performance of the offense last year.  We traded back once in 2nd round and there is no guarantee Mixon would have been there had we done so again or if anyone was even interested in moving up into that spot.  If we're going to talk "having our cake and eating it too," I think it's a little unfair to bag on Ross and Lawson over long term health concerns, but say RB isn't a big need when our best one is coming off of major knee surgery.

3.The fact that a player of Willis' caliber was available here goes a long way to validate the Bengals going offense with the first two picks.  Their draft strategy worked.

4.Lawson is a great talent who fell due to his health concerns.  However, with the Bengals drafting him after Willis, they hedged their bets with him.  If he stays healthy, we have a monster DE rotation.  If he doesn't, we still have Willis.  With 12 picks, they could afford to spend a 4th on a high risk/high reward prospect at a position of need.

5.Our WR depth was frankly poor going into the draft.  James Wright was good enough to make the team last year, for pete's sake, and he contributed nothing.  Our #3 through #6 WR's combined for one TD over 16 games, and that's with missing the #1 WR for a month.  Malone has the physical tools to be a big time contributer if they can polish his route running.  Quality competition at any position group is never a bad thing.

6.Noticing a trend, here.  

7.Simply put, there wasn't a player at another position that would have the impact as a rookie that Elliott will if he beats out Bullock.

8.Dielman is probably my least favorite pick, but if you honestly thought there was a C in this draft that was going to be able to come in and upgrade Bodine, you either vastly overrated this C class or vastly underrated Bodine. 

Completely disagree with lawson pick. If he stays healthy, hell be great. My problem is theyre both 3-4 players.. But lawson when he was finally healthy last year had 9.5 sacks, 7.5 against sec. I do believe 3rd pick would have been kpassagnon if he had been there. But lawdon and willis were both huge steals.

I checked out as soon as you said Ross was only speed.

(05-01-2017, 01:04 AM)Whatever Wrote: 1.I would make the argument here that DL being a bigger need than WR is a highly subjective point of view.  In fact, it is impossible to make that argument statistically.  We were tied for 19th in sacks last year and 26th in passing TD's.  To further that point, we were 8th in scoring defense last year and 24th in scoring offense.  I realise that some favor the "build through the trenches" philosophy or the "build a dominant defense" philosophy, but unbiased statistical analysis would indicate that offense was a bigger need than defense.  Your critique of this pick also fails to take into account larger draft strategy.  This draft was very deep with pass rushers, and they took the WR that would have a great immediate impact over the pass rusher because they knew they could get a quality DE later and would not be able to get an impact player at WR later.

As far as the critique of Ross as a player, I see some valid concerns and some false statements.  He led the nation in red zone TD's last year with 12, which debunks the "he's nothing but speed" critique.  He has great agility and quickness, and does a great job of using jab steps to get DB's out of position.  His knees are currently healthy, although I understand some degree of concern going forward.  He played through his shoulder injury since week 5 and waited until after his Pro Day to have surgery, and he said in his news conference after the draft that he will be ready for TC.  It should also be noted that the top rated LB and S at that pick have also had shoulder surgery during the off-season.

2.I can't really see how RB wasn't a need with Burkhead's departure, Gio's injury, Hill's decline, and the overall poor performance of the offense last year.  We traded back once in 2nd round and there is no guarantee Mixon would have been there had we done so again or if anyone was even interested in moving up into that spot.  If we're going to talk "having our cake and eating it too," I think it's a little unfair to bag on Ross and Lawson over long term health concerns, but say RB isn't a big need when our best one is coming off of major knee surgery.

3.The fact that a player of Willis' caliber was available here goes a long way to validate the Bengals going offense with the first two picks.  Their draft strategy worked.

4.Lawson is a great talent who fell due to his health concerns.  However, with the Bengals drafting him after Willis, they hedged their bets with him.  If he stays healthy, we have a monster DE rotation.  If he doesn't, we still have Willis.  With 12 picks, they could afford to spend a 4th on a high risk/high reward prospect at a position of need.

5.Our WR depth was frankly poor going into the draft.  James Wright was good enough to make the team last year, for pete's sake, and he contributed nothing.  Our #3 through #6 WR's combined for one TD over 16 games, and that's with missing the #1 WR for a month.  Malone has the physical tools to be a big time contributer if they can polish his route running.  Quality competition at any position group is never a bad thing.

6.Noticing a trend, here.  

7.Simply put, there wasn't a player at another position that would have the impact as a rookie that Elliott will if he beats out Bullock.

8.Dielman is probably my least favorite pick, but if you honestly thought there was a C in this draft that was going to be able to come in and upgrade Bodine, you either vastly overrated this C class or vastly underrated Bodine. 

Not bad points. For discussion sake:
1. Our offense had a lot of problems. WR talent was maybe fourth out of four areas (line, predictable playcalling, redzone play, WRs). Our DL on the other hand was pretty much two guys doing the job of four. One of those guys not doing as much (Peko) is gone with a question makr in his place. The other (MJ) has some left in the tank, but he needs to be a part of a bigger rotation.

And honestly, I haven't seen much of a draft strategy the last several years. It was our strong point up until about the AJ/Andy draft. Since then, we gamble and haven't been hitting like we used to.

As far as the assumption on WR over DE to get more of an impact, eh, I'll disagree. There's a chance Ross won't play much this season. In the draft they were talking about him possibly starting PUP. He won't start over LaFell or Green. Boyd is (presumably) healthy, has a good skillset and a year on him. So, best case, he comes in for a few downs when we're up, or he replaces someone injured. He's a pick for down the road, as opposed to guys who could have started rotating in on the DL as soon as possible.

And since when does leading in redzone TDs "debunk" that he's more than a speed guy? Speed doesn't help score in the redzone? I didn't say he was only a deep threat, I said his only tool is his speed. He's not good at selling or adjusting to bad throws, hes a guy that gets to where he needs to be quickly. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a knock. But smart, experienced NFL corners are going to know where he's going, get there before him and get a hand in his face. 

2. Experienced coming off an injury is different than inexperienced. Experienced players know how to get the job done even if they have lost a step. Not really having any cake, just the difference in relying on a pro with an injury and gambling on a rookie with one.

3. Maybe. It'll be a couple years before we know. I hope you're correct, but I would temper that with the last time they tried that strategy at DE, we got... Margus Hunt.

That's my trepidation. 

I don't mind if we take later round picks to fill spots of need, but you can't take  project, wait four years and take another. 

4. We're banking a lot on "he only fell because of injuries." Sometimes it pans out, and sometimes we get Ogbuehi as a tackle.

5. I'd disagree. I think Green, LaFell, Boyd and Core is a pretty reliable four; beyond that, we had some options. I'm not opposed to this pick, I just don't see him making the team. Most likely practice squad, and most likely gone.

7. I'm ok with the pick. Like I said, he's an area of need. I just wish we'd taken a better one. 

8. Elflein is going to play guard or center in the next few years. Dielmann is going to fill out a roster until his rookie contract expires. Elfein was one of the few safe picks in the draft and fit the Bengals' philosophy of 'just plug him in somewhere.' And, no, I'm not an OSU fan. I'm a Golden Domer. But Elfein was still my favorite OL pick out of this draft as far as ceiling and versatility. 

1. We needed speed and playmakers outside of AJ Green and Eifert (often hurt). So I don't see why you think Ross and Nixon didn't feel needs.

2. Ross isn't a one trick pony and I'm not sure why you keep suggesting he is. His scouting report emphasizes that he ran all types of routes and dominated teams even when not using his deep speed. He also has good hands.

3. This was not a good OL draft to say the least, and a rookie from a weak class wouldn't have helped much this year at all. If you're going to be mad about the line, be mad that we ignored it in free agency, when several solid players were available at reasonable prices, but we had to protect precious compensatory picks.

4. RB is definitely a need with Hill (awful), Gio (injured/ineffective) and Rex (gone).
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Long story short, I'd say this team only has 1 big weakness (o-line) and this was a bad draft to address that. They should've addressed it via FA, but seemed all too content to roll with some questionable (at best) players manning 4 spots. They did fill every other need (speed, playmakers and DE being the biggest), and I love the players we got to fill those needs.

Pacman and Nixon isn't a fair comparison IMO. One made a huge mistake and seemingly learned from it. The other is a repeat offender for a decade + who shows zero remorse for anything he's ever done. I once was just as forgiving towards Pacman as I am now with Mixon, but Pacman burned up all his chances. Fwiw, I don't think Burfict belongs in this discussion as he's a model citizen off field. Who else do we have that earns us the reputation?