(05-01-2017, 12:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: I only saw one case.....and I really saw no personal attack there, but an attack on a baiting post.....

.....so, ban the problem?

No ban of anyone, i just hope to see less controversy from him in the future. Lord knows, I am a work in progress and I think we can all grow from constructive feedback.

(05-01-2017, 01:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Maybe just me, but not just this thread, but Benton has become very confrontational for a moderator. Just one guy's opinion. I love this site and love  the moderators, just one i have noticed likes conflict with posters.

No ban of anyone, i just hope to see less controversy from him in the future. Lord knows, I am a work in progress and I think we can all grow from constructive feedback.

Well....this whole damn board got pretty confrontational Friday night, me included.....to the point I thought of leaving here.  I don't know if it has been something you've noticed this weekend, or for some time now.  I can't comment intelligently on it, because I haven't noticed it.

That said, when someone DOES throw out a personal insult, as happened here, I don't see the issue of returning fire, mod or not.

(05-01-2017, 01:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well....this whole damn board got pretty confrontational Friday night, me included.....to the point I thought of leaving here.  I don't know if it has been something you've noticed this weekend, or for some time now.  I can't comment intelligently on it, because I haven't noticed it.

That said, when someone DOES throw out a personal insult, as happened here, I don't see the issue of returning fire, mod or not.

Fair enough

Let's just agree to disagree. I think mods should have a much higher standard and respect you don't.

(05-01-2017, 01:10 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Fair enough

Let's just agree to disagree. I think mods should have a much higher standard and respect you don't.

Oh yeah, no problem....just giving an opinion, same as you.  Differing opinions make it happen.....but you can have a differing opinion and be respectful about it.  To me, when no respect is given, the gloves are off. :andy:

(05-01-2017, 10:21 AM)bengals67 Wrote: I have been fuming about management for not firing Marvin, failing to franchise Whit, and keeping Bodine as the starting center. I still disagree on these decisions.

With this background, I think this was a great draft that addresses most of problems during a draft year with weak o lineman available.

Ross will completely unbalance opposing Ds and open things up for AJ and Eifert and other WRs and Gio. Picking Ross does more to protect Dalton than picking a below round/pick level o lineman.

If Pats or Steelers had picked Mixon, ESPN would have said it was brilliant. He may be the best player in the draft. He made a really stupid mistake as an 18 year old. He appears genuinely remorseful . Give the kid a chance.

Mixon runs like Bell. When everyone sings the praises of Big Ben, they ignore how his passing opportunities are enhanced by having a back like Bell to keep the D unbalanced.

Third and fourth round picks were off the charts excellent.

Simmons picked the kicker he wanted. Simmons is one of our best coaches.

The Houston safety could be a huge steal.

The Oklahoma linebacker is great on coverage. All reports say he was one of the best cover LBs in the draft. How many years have we gotten killed by tight ends and backs catching passes?

 The Utah center would have gone in fourth round if he had not been injured. I think he is a better player than many on this board are thinking.

I see a much stronger and nastier defense and a lot of weapons on offense making us far less reliant on AJ.

The ball is n Alexander's court o coach up our two tackles, both of whom were first round level choices.

I am with Bonnie Bengal and much more excited about the coming season

Agree with you and Bonnie.  We really did not have the opportunity to upgrade the OL at the top of the draft  -  not with quality people, and not that would have impacted this year.

I would like to have gotten Asiata at the end of the draft and maybe toy with some other OLinemen.

But I think we significantly upgraded the team.   I'm a big fan of the Ross pick.  He's not just a speed guy, he's a student of the game with apparent football intelligence, a guy who loves the game and obvious toughness.  Anyone who could play out a season on a bum shoulder and play well has my confidence as a mentally tough competitor.

We significantly strengthened the pass rush potential with Willis and Lawson, and I think Glasgow may be one of the more undervalued picks in the draft.  I looked at film on him.  He's a stud in the run game.  Stud.  Destroyed Elflein.  Rarely if ever goes backwards.  Our D-line coach raved about his technique.  And on film I thought he did a good job of shedding and penetrating.  That's huge from my perspective.  Stuffs the run, collapses the pocket and penetrates.  That's a pretty complete defensive tackle and will help us to compete in the AFC North.

We got faster in all three phases of the game and, I think we'll find, raised the floor of our backups (LB and WR in particular)  And we did a lot to significantly upgrade our special teams in terms of speed and consistency.

The only area we did not upgrade was the offensive line.  But for the most part the quality just was not there in this draft.

The only huge offseason gaff in my mind was letting Whit get out of here.  We keep him I think we're looking at the playoffs.

And while I'm dreading how Og plays at LT, I'm hoping that with a full offseason and the work he's put in on his own, Og makes it up to at least average this year.

But Ross and Mixon are going to have a powerful impact against defenses.   

There is now a reason to tune in this year.

You have to remember Marv has not sweated the pass-rush that much; he's said this much in interviews, down playing the importance saying Zona was top last year and how did that work out? Pats had one more sack that us in 2016 and you see how that worked out (over-looking TB being QB, too). I think they probably wanted one of the other 8 players and he was gone, so they went BPA with Ross.

(05-01-2017, 01:19 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: You have to remember Marv has not sweated the pass-rush that much; he's said this much in interviews, down playing the importance saying Zona was top last year and how did that work out? Pats had one more sack that us in 2016 and you see how that worked out (over-looking TB being QB, too). I think they probably wanted one of the other 8 players and he was gone, so they went BPA with Ross.

The Bengals do like flashy WR's and RB's...and there is no flashier than the fastest guy ever at the combine.

I think Fournette is the guy they REALLY wanted...but he wasn't going to be there. I think Mixon is a better fit anyways.

Hmmm.....media in general loved this Bengals' draft. I did, too.

1st round the team finally got the WR they really wanted last year....but took the slot WR instead, as all the other good ones were already off the board.

2nd round....and I said this to all the self righteous fans stating the Bengals were drafting criminals. Can't deny that. But, they ended up drafting the 21 year old Mixon, not the 18 year old version. That, in and of itself, makes all the difference in the world. Should he have punched that girl? Absolutely not. But dang.....she did her best to get a rise out of him by shoving him. She just happened to get more than she bargained for. Mixon was certainly in the top 10 in this draft without the "incident". His name should have been considered as one of the top RBs in the entire draft. This was a need and a steal.

There was some talk about Willis and Lawson going in the 1st or 2nd round. Bengals got great value in them.

Malone....again speed. We've exorcised the loss of both Sanu and Jones with much better players. I like it.

Only issue for me is drafting a kicker. Is he good, or better than who we have? I don't know. I don't follow kickers much and believe you can find good ones languishing on the streets after graduating from college without expending a draft pick. So, I plead the 5th on him.

Dielman has to be better than Bodine, right?

This team (especially this offense) is going to be a sight to behold on Sunday. We improved our defense (especially signing Minter) and greatly upgraded our offense.

(05-01-2017, 11:51 AM)Benton Wrote: It wasn't a personal attack. Your post had no substance other than trying to get a reaction with condescending comments like:

(04-30-2017, 10:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2.  The fact that you think Ross is nothing but a speed only guy proves you don't know much about the draft prospects.

So you think that post had no substance  Then what about all of these posts?

(04-30-2017, 10:48 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I watched some Ross tape. All he has is speed?

(05-01-2017, 01:37 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: I checked out as soon as you said Ross was only speed.

(05-01-2017, 07:38 AM)Stewy Wrote: this

(05-01-2017, 01:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. Ross isn't a one trick pony and I'm not sure why you keep suggesting he is.

(05-01-2017, 09:52 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Everything that Ive heard and read about Ross is that he doesnt rely on speed only and that he is a pretty complete receiver... 

(05-01-2017, 09:57 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Had trouble taking your grades seriously when you said Ross relies only on his speed.

Yet you single me out, insult me by claiming my posts are not valid or serious, and then try to deny that your post was intended as dig at me.

Way to set a good example Mr.Mod. 

The thread is about draft grades, and reasons/opinions for those grades. 

You can disagree or have a different view than the OP...which is fine. But, stick to addressing the actual topic.

If you you have a complaint about something not related to the topic, then you are free to contact me to discuss it, but leave it out of the thread.

(05-01-2017, 01:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals do like flashy WR's and RB's...and there is no flashier than the fastest guy ever at the combine.

I think Fournette is the guy they REALLY wanted...but he wasn't going to be there. I think Mixon is a better fit anyways.

I doubt they would of picked Fournette @9. Bengals love to add talent to the boundaries (as evident from them constantly picking CB/WR's in the first few rounds).

But their draft strategy was way different than most thought, as it's clear they were committed to surrounding AD with weapons. 

Down-side is the (old) D is another year older and the player with probably the highest upside came in the third round.

(05-01-2017, 11:43 AM)Benton Wrote: Why are you waiting until the 5th? Where did I say we could've gotten a DL starter in the fifth?

Apparently the only reason you did not like the Malone pick was because he was for depth.  So I assume you would not be satisfied drafting for depth at any other position here.

Maybe it would make it more clear if you could tell me what player taken in this slot would have gotten an "a" from you.

(05-01-2017, 11:43 AM)Benton Wrote: I didn't go into much on the last few picks because there's not much of a chance they make much of an impact. Not that they're wasted picks, they're just late draft selections and it's not likely we see much out of a sixth round corner given the talent we've got there.

I don't understand at all.

Are you saying the Bengals get a D for drafting 6th and 7th round selections in the 6th and 7th round?  So wouldn't that mean that every single team in the league would get a grade of "D" for their 6th and 7th round picks?

Maybe it would help if you would list some players we could have taken in the 6th and 7th rounds that would have gotten an "A" or a "B" from you.

With the exception of the K, I thought this was a great draft. They did a really good job adding talent and getting value.

As for Ross, the team struggled in the red zone last year. Ross led D1 in red zone catches, red zone yards, and red zone TDs. He's a pretty complete receiver. Obviously needs to adjust to the NFL game, but he's everything you could want in a rookie WR. Good hands, good separation, runs good routes, and has amazing speed. In a couple of seasons, Green, Ross, Boyd, and Core could be near the very top of the league as a receiving corps. This pick was a slam dunk A to me.

I get tired of the talk of Mixon's woes. Kid mad a mistake, paid the price, and has been clean since. Have you seen the way these same fans talk about Chris Henry? Fans pick and choose who they are willing to forgive and who they're not. For some reason, a lot don't want to look past a mistake Mixon made a couple of years ago. From a strictly talent standpoint, Mixon was the best RB in the draft, a top 10 talent, and an excellent fit for this team and they drafted him at 48. Value and talent are both A's here. This kid could be really special.

Willis was an obvious A. With the first 3 picks, the Bengals came away with 3 of the top 50 players in the draft, with 2 of them being top 10-15 talent. If we're going pure talent and not going by positions and such, these first 3 picks were in the top 25 overall. Even if they miss on the rest of their picks, these first 3 could pay huge dividends for this team for years to come.

For some reason, people are just blinded by Ross' speed. He is so much more. Mixon isn't going to get a fair shake because of 1 mistake he made a couple of years ago. At least people see the value of Willis. There were still other great picks (Lawson and Malone especially), but just the first 3 picks made this draft an easy A.

(04-30-2017, 09:56 PM)Benton Wrote: I thought it would be easier and less of a derailment for other existing Draft Grade threads to go with my own post draft thread. I made no bones before the draft of how I felt about a few people, and I haven't hidden the fact after the draft that I'm disappointed with the direction we went.
Sooo... I'll go pick by pick on why this wasn't a draft I cared much for. The grades are mostly low, but I'll explain why with each.

Pick 1 — John Ross. My Grade: D
This one is a mix of reasons, moreso than most of the rest.
First up is just overall team need. We needed DL and there were several good ones on the board. We could've gone with a standout LB, even though I don't think it's a huge need. We could've gone safety and improved that spot. We could've gone TE given the question mark there.
But instead we went wide receiver. Despite having several recent picks there, a re-signed FA and one of the leagues best. As far as picking to fill a need, this was an F.
Then there's Ross himself. He's not a bad receiver, but he is reliant on his speed at this point (cutting him some slack, he is a rookie) and doesn't have a lot outside of that. That's not a bad thing as speed is touchdowns. It is a bad thing with a guy who has a history of injuries that could hinder the speed.
In other words, he's a boom or bust pick. Just like Ogbuehi a couple years ago. I hated that pick, too, not because he was injured, but because the injury meant he was going to be years away from contirbuting. It takes time to condition and learn. Ogbeuhi was nowhere near ready, or worthy of the pick.
Ross is similar in that regard.
If he stays healthy (long-term), he's got a short window to get healthy (there was already draft  talk of PUP), learn the spot, and contribute... and learn how to be more than just a fast guy. Because that window will be short. Oh, and lots of guys have injury concerns. But this is the Bengals... our injury history with guys isn't glowing.
And yeah, when that window is open, he could be a game changer as far as opening up the long ball. Looking back over the Marvin years, it will be a surprise if he's used that way.

Pick 2 — Joe Mixon: C
A mix here, too.
There is not a better back who fit the Bengals scheme than Joe Mixon. The biggest problem was, again, he wasn't a huge need. And, like Ross, probably a reach for when he was picked. The team could've dropped back and picked him up later... just like Ross.
With the needs we had and who was available, he wasn't a good pick.
As far as Who is Joe Mixon and the divisiveness that comes with it, I'll say this: people who complain about the crap the Bengals get for being a team of thugs, but cheer the Mixon pick... you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If we're going to keep Pacman, Mixon, Vontez and others who stumble along the way, we're going to keep that reputation.
Personally, I don't have a big issue with it. Just realize, Joe Mixon is no different than Ray Rice. And only one team took the high ground there.

Pick 3 — Jordan Willis: (not a shocker to many) A
Finally, a pick at a place where we're woefully short on talent. Willis is a good player who should have gone earlier in the draft. He should see some considerable playing time in a season or two, and could get worked into the mix some next season. Probably the only player I really felt improved the team at a position that needed improving.

Pick 4 — Carl Lawson: C
Position of need, so it goes up a bit. But another with a history of injury.
I took some flack a few years ago when I criticized taking Luigs. At the time I said I doubted he would ever play in the NFL for much the same reason I doubt Lawson will: his hips.
Unlike Ross, I'm not overly worried about his knee. But Lawson plays with stiff hips.
Which is too bad. If it's a lingering injury issue, that doesn't bode well for becoming a pro. If not, then it's (hopefully) something that be coached out of him.

Pick 5 — Josh Malone: D
Not a bad player, but it's like our approach to corners. We're just trhowing darts and hoarding players. Malone will probably make the team given the position of his pick, but unless there's an injury, it's doubtful he makes it too far up the depth chart.
We aren't going five wide. We won't see Malone if everyone stays healthy. Why not take a pick at a spot of need?
Just a head scratcher.

Pick 6 — Ryan Glasgow: B
Another position of need. Most likely a rotational guy, but not bad depth. Most likely will give Billings a breather, but I'm not sold on Billings, either.

Pick 7— Jake Elliot: C
We needed a kicker, we took a kicker. Seemed high as he doesn't seem like a standout... even for a kicker... but at least we did something to fill a need.

Pick 8 — JJ Deilman: F
Another big need, another guy with injury concerns. Not entirely surprised with picking a guy who is projected to be a C/G. I just thought they'd pick a better one.
I will be surprised if he's here in 3 years.

Pick 9, 10, 11 — D
Camp bodies. Not much to get excited about. Given the laundry list of linemen, TE, WR and CB, doubtful any of these guys are here next year.



Soooo, there ya go. I felt good about last year's draft. I hated the year before and I liked this one even left. We didn't address needs, we took some gambles (health-wise) for the future and we added another target for league/media scorn. All in all, not what I was expecting in a draft where we had high picks and a lot of talent at areas of need.

1.)  I give this a C, only because of what you are saying about our need at DL, we absolutely could have used an edge rusher, or one up the gut.  So, I would have liked impact help there instead.  That said, the grade would have been a solid B for me, if not for that point.  The kid can ball, the only knock is the injury issue....we just have to HOPE that's behind him.  I must say I am not too keen on drafting injury speculations with our first pick a couple of times.

2.) D. I believe in second chances and forgiveness.....just wish, in the Bengals case.....it was another team doing it.  Again, there were DL options to be had here, and Foreman and a couple other good backs were around later.  I hope he's matured A LOT, besides the haymaker, there were articles talking about him not even being able to handle life at OU and wanting to quit and go home.  He had to be convinced into staying......if he hasn't matured A LOT, he won't be handling the intense heat of the NFL spotlight.  I don't like the pick, and probably never will.

3.) A....for many of the same reasons you just touted.

4.) C-....another injured guy? Team must love them.

5.) C....I'm guessing he competes with Core and Erickson.

6.) B-....agreed, although I think Billings may be a pretty good player at some point.

7.) A. I'm giving this an A because AT LEAST we're having legit competition at K for a change.

8.) I....incomplete, honestly don't know much about him, but think there were better options at C out there, and we should have grabbed one.  Of course, had we been actual players in FA, this could have been a moot point.

9.)  Not even gonna rate, there's no reason to....they are what they are.....

The only picks I thought were head scratchers:
Josh Malone - I would have looked for OL here, but I can understand the pick. It was a selection for the future and really gives the Bengals great WR depth.

JJ Dielman - I wasn't a fan of this selection after seeing what he does and doesn't do well. But we know PA loves his versatile linemen when it comes to depth. Like many college OL nowadays, Dielman needs to really build up his strength before he sees the field.

Mason Schreck - This guy was really off the radar. Just like James Wright a couple years ago, I feel this one came out of left field and people will question it over some more talked-about TEs (Cole Hikutini specifically). I have to wonder if they weren't hoping Bucky Hodges would have fallen to this pick instead given how far he already dropped.

(05-01-2017, 01:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: 1.)  I give this a C, only because of what you are saying about our need at DL, we absolutely could have used an edge rusher, or one up the gut.  So, I would have liked impact help there instead.  That said, the grade would have been a solid B for me, if not for that point.  The kid can ball, the only knock is the injury issue....we just have to HOPE that's behind him.  I must say I am not too keen on drafting injury speculations with our first pick a couple of times.

2.) D. I believe in second chances and forgiveness.....just wish, in the Bengals case.....it was another team doing it.  Again, there were DL options to be had here, and Foreman and a couple other good backs were around later.  I hope he's matured A LOT, besides the haymaker, there were articles talking about him not even being able to handle life at OU and wanting to quit and go home.  He had to be convinced into staying......if he hasn't matured A LOT, he won't be handling the intense heat of the NFL spotlight.  I don't like the pick, and probably never will.

3.) A....for many of the same reasons you just touted.

4.) C-....another injured guy? Team must love them.

5.) C....I'm guessing he competes with Core and Erickson.

6.) B-....agreed, although I think Billings may be a pretty good player at some point.

7.) A. I'm giving this an A because AT LEAST we're having legit competition at K for a change.

8.) I....incomplete, honestly don't know much about him, but think there were better options at C out there, and we should have grabbed one.  Of course, had we been actual players in FA, this could have been a moot point.

9.)  Not even gonna rate, there's no reason to....they are what they are.....

My only comment is you seem to putting a lot of negative weight on injury concerns and character concerns. On the injury front, almost every draft pick that has played 3 years of college football has missed time due to injury. Most NFL players will be injured due to the severity of the beatings their bodies take every week.

Oh and on your board, you would have given the Munoz pick a "C" at best at his college knee injuries were considered catastrophic before his draft and back then medical science was in the dark ages reconstructing knees. My point is all these guys are always injury risks and injuries become a crap shoot. All we can judge is if they will NFL ready by September and all reports point to all of our guys on track right now to be ready, once they start working all bets are off to determine who will suffer injuries.

(05-01-2017, 01:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The only picks I thought were head scratchers:
Josh Malone - I would have looked for OL here, but I can understand the pick. It was a selection for the future and really gives the Bengals great WR depth.

JJ Dielman - I wasn't a fan of this selection after seeing what he does and doesn't do well. But we know PA loves his versatile linemen when it comes to depth. Like many college OL nowadays, Dielman needs to really build up his strength before he sees the field.

Mason Schreck - This guy was really off the radar. Just like James Wright a couple years ago, I feel this one came out of left field and people will question it over some more talked-about TEs (Cole Hikutini specifically). I have to wonder if they weren't hoping Bucky Hodges would have fallen to this pick instead given how far he already dropped.

I looked at it differently. We will have injuries and if we want guys who can do what the guy injured can do (maybe not all of it, but at least some of it, we have to make sure they have similar attributes.

Ross = Malone (both are speed guys so if Ross injured, we will still have an option of speed opposite AJ Green

AJG = Core No WR is AJ, but again Core has some of his traits

Boyd = Lafell

I also see Malone over time playing every WR position, so the ability to have guys who can line up in multiple places makes it much harder on the DC to make adjustments

(05-01-2017, 02:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My only comment is you seem to putting a lot of negative weight on injury concerns and character concerns. On the injury front, almost every draft pick that has played 3 years of college football has missed time due to injury. Most NFL players will be injured due to the severity of the beatings their bodies take every week.

Oh and on your board, you would have given the Munoz pick a "C" at best at his college knee injuries were considered catastrophic before his draft and back then medical science was in the dark ages reconstructing knees. My point is all these guys are always injury risks and injuries become a crap shoot. All we can judge is if they will NFL ready by September and all reports point to all of our guys on track right now to be ready, once they start working all bets are off to determine who will suffer injuries.

Yeah, you're right, I probably would have given Munoz a C, maybe lower, you're going off of hindsight there, where I would be basing my grade on potential risk.  I don't think I dinged the picks too badly.  I gave Ross a C....but that had more to do with an impact pass rusher.  If we go by injury issues only, it would be a B or B+ pick.  Maybe it's the Ogbuehi deal that has me antsy, but I'm just leery of a cat that is a WR in a brute force division that has already had three knee injuries....otherwise, great pick there.

Overall, I think the Bengals had a nice draft....we can come back later and see who panned out, and who didn't.  I'd say my opinion of it is much higher than the OP, but I can understand some of the concerns as well, and agree with some of them.

As for character concerns, I've said all I'm going to say about that.....and probably should have just left that blank....but I wanted to clarify my thoughts on second chances.