(05-03-2017, 09:41 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The deciding factor for me would be Tyler Eifert's long term prognosis with respect to health.  Gary Barnidge, for what it's worth, is unusually productive on a non-productive offense in Cleveland.

Gary Barnidge made Pauly Shore actually look respectable as an NFL QB for a hot minute in Cleveland.....I'd kick the tires.

(05-03-2017, 04:18 PM)Wyche Wrote: Gary Barnidge made Pauly Shore actually look respectable as an NFL QB for a hot minute in Cleveland.....I'd kick the tires.

I know we all think unless someone visits us we are doing nothing. But, the first thing I would do is reach out to get a price range from his agent. If he fits in my price range, then bring him for a visit (kick the tires), but if out of my range, I would not waste my time or energy.

I did not look at a Mercedes is I have a Volkswagen budget.

Maybe they did kick the tires on Mangold and him?

(05-03-2017, 02:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Need to mention Barnidge was a top option in Cleveland, Uzomah was not.

Yeah, but damn, look who was throwing him the ball!!  The Clowns didn't have much more than 650 yards total passing!

(05-03-2017, 02:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Need to mention Barnidge was a top option in Cleveland, Uzomah was not.

Need to realize that good players will always become top options.

If you switched out Uzomah for Barnidge on the 2016 Browns, Uzomah would not be a top option.

Barnidge put up over 1,000 yards/9 TD in 2015. Uzomah doesn't have that in him.

With both Green and Eifert out in the final 2 games of the 2016 season, Uzomah put up 8 catches/41 yards (5.1 AVG)/1 TD... and that was with Uzomah being the #1 TE and Green not taking any touches away.

When Uzomah was being relied upon to be a leader, he put up numbers worse than a pass catching RB. Barnidge showed he could help carry the load, and his QBs just the last two years have been...
-Josh McCown
-Johnny Manziel
-Austin Davis
-Cody Kessler
-Robert Griffin 3rd
-Charlie Whitehurst
-Kevin Hogan

7 horrible QBs in the last two years and he's still put up 134/1,655/11 and can be pretty much relied upon to be healthy for 16 games.

(05-03-2017, 09:27 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: To the bolded...you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. Kroft is not better than Barnidge right now (you seem to admit that...I think),

Not talking out of both sides of my mouth at all.  Kroft is a young improving player.  Barnidge will be 32 and is definitely on the downhill side of his career.  So it is possible that Kroft could be better than Barnidge this year.

(05-03-2017, 09:27 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But I get it. Kroft is going to be great some day, even though he's been a total disappointment that's fallen behind a 6th round pick.

Actually, no, you do not get it at all.

You are saying it is impossible for a player to improve dramatically early in his career so we should replace Kroft, who has 21 receptions in his first 2 seasons, with a guy who had a grand total of 12 receptions in his first 4 seasons.

You are the one talking out of both sides of your mouth.

(05-03-2017, 04:58 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Barnidge put up over 1,000 yards/9 TD in 2015. Uzomah doesn't have that in him.

You do not know that at all.

Three years ago you would have been calling Barnidge useless because he only had 48 receptions in 6 seasons.  You would have laughed at anyone who said Barnidge was going to have a 1000 yard receiving year at age 30.

Also in 2015 Barnidge's starting QB for half of the season was Josh McCowan with a 93.3 passer rating, and the team had over 4100 receiving yards for the year.

(05-03-2017, 05:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You do not know that at all.

Three years ago you would have been calling Barnidge useless because he only had 48 receptions in 6 seasons.  You would have laughed at anyone who said Barnidge was going to have a 1000 yard receiving year at age 30.

Also in 2015 Barnidge's starting QB for half of the season was Josh McCowan with a 93.3 passer rating, and the team had over 4100 receiving yards for the year.

Fine, if you're so confident I don't know that... I'm willing to accept any sig bet you want to create prior to the start of any season that Uzomah won't get 1,000+ yards receiving in that season.

(05-03-2017, 05:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fine, if you're so confident I don't know that... I'm willing to accept any sig bet you want to create prior to the start of any season that Uzomah won't get 1,000+ yards receiving in that season.

Except I never said that Uzomah would have a 1000 season. But you did not understand the point I was trying to make unless you are seriously trying to claim that prior to '15 you predicted that Barnidge would have a 1000 yard season.  Got a link to you making that claim back then?

The fact is that right now there are quite a few players who have completed their first two years oin the league without doing much yet will go on to have great careers.  If you want to claim that you can predict everyone of them correctly then let me see you do it.

(05-03-2017, 02:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Need to mention Barnidge was a top option in Cleveland, Uzomah was not.

Need to mention that Uzomah had drop issues and that was a big reason he didn't see the field a lot, Barnidge didn't have those issues.

Shake getting torched by Fred right now.

Last year was Kroft's year to "step up" and he didn't. Since Eifert had part of his back removed I supposed this is also going to be Kroft's year to step-up. Meh, I'm not holding my breath.

(05-03-2017, 06:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except I never said that Uzomah would have a 1000 season. But you did not understand the point I was trying to make unless you are seriously trying to claim that prior to '15 you predicted that Barnidge would have a 1000 yard season.  Got a link to you making that claim back then?

The fact is that right now there are quite a few players who have completed their first two years oin the league without doing much yet will go on to have great careers.  If you want to claim that you can predict everyone of them correctly then let me see you do it.

I understood the point you were *trying* to make, sure. But you failed at it. You're arguing for a potential longshot, while I am saying take the sure thing.

You can't refuse to upgrade a team simply because you can't prove that crappy/backup players are only crappy/backup players. On one hand you have a thoroughly bleh TE, and on the other you have one who has over 1,600 yards the last two years. Take the second one, he makes your team better.

Ignoring a productive player in order to keep a crappy one who may or may not have potential is how you end up with shitty situations like Green and Eifert being hurt, and Uzomah being relied upon to help carry the offense. Or Whitworth leaving in FA and Ogbuehi being the starting LT.

I am sure Uzomah would be an adequate 3rd TE. I just don't want him being the guy who is relied upon when (not if) Eifert goes down. That's a losing proposition.

Here is my comparison of the 2 TE's

Barnidge - old and declining
- a lot more expensive than Uzomah
- Much better receiver than Uzomah'
- Not sure about in line blocking for either, but it is important to figure out

Uzomah - Young and improving
- much better value than Barnidge
- worse receiver than Barnidge

I think it comes down to value of an older more experienced pass catcher to a young TE with some upside. I would argue all things considered Kroft may be the one to be cut if Barnidge was added and not Uzomah

(05-03-2017, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not talking out of both sides of my mouth at all.  Kroft is a young improving player.  Barnidge will be 32 and is definitely on the downhill side of his career.  So it is possible that Kroft could be better than Barnidge this year.


Actually, no, you do not get it at all.

You are saying it is impossible for a player to improve dramatically early in his career so we should replace Kroft, who has 21 receptions in his first 2 seasons, with a guy who had a grand total of 12 receptions in his first 4 seasons.

You are the one talking out of both sides of your mouth.

1. How is Kroft improving? Like I said - and you conveniently clipped out - Kroft fell behind Uzomah in the pecking order. You have odd standards for improvement.

2. It's "possible" that Schreck winds up being Tony Gonzalez 2.0. There's a big gap between possible and "likely".

3. Never said it was impossible. This is standard "Fred putting words in people's mouth's to argue against a point they didn't make". I believe you call that a "strawman". I said the potential of a player that seemingly regressed in year 2, was leapfrogged by a 6th round pick, and has produced next to nothing with plenty of opportunity (considering Eifert's injuries), does not outweigh the positives of adding a proven veteran presence. 

Yes. Barnidge is on the down slope. This core of players is also nearing the end of their window. 

(05-03-2017, 06:57 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: Shake getting torched by Fred right now.

Oh get real. You just wish he was because you can't. 

(05-03-2017, 04:58 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Need to realize that good players will always become top options.

If you switched out Uzomah for Barnidge on the 2016 Browns, Uzomah would not be a top option.

Barnidge put up over 1,000 yards/9 TD in 2015. Uzomah doesn't have that in him.

With both Green and Eifert out in the final 2 games of the 2016 season, Uzomah put up 8 catches/41 yards (5.1 AVG)/1 TD... and that was with Uzomah being the #1 TE and Green not taking any touches away.

When Uzomah was being relied upon to be a leader, he put up numbers worse than a pass catching RB. Barnidge showed he could help carry the load, and his QBs just the last two years have been...
-Josh McCown
-Johnny Manziel
-Austin Davis
-Cody Kessler
-Robert Griffin 3rd
-Charlie Whitehurst
-Kevin Hogan

7 horrible QBs in the last two years and he's still put up 134/1,655/11 and can be pretty much relied upon to be healthy for 16 games.

Uzomah has some potential though. He had a few drops I noticed, but he also had some great catches as well. not bad for a 3rd string TE with plenty of potential.

(05-03-2017, 12:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 4 deep at TE and 4 deep with GOOD TE are two very different things.

Kroft 2016: 14 games(11 starts), 10 catches/92 yards/0 TD
Hewitt 2016: 16 games(11 starts), 2 catches/13 yards/0 TD
CJ Uzomah 2016: 10 games(8 starts), 25 catches/234 yards/0 TD
Tyler Eifert 2016: 8 games(2 starts), 29 catches/394 yards/5 TD

Schreck: A 2017 PS player.

The only person who is better on that list than Barnidge is Eifert, and Eifert is only better if he's healthy, which thus far is extremely unlikely to be for an entire season.

Last I checked, the Bengals were trying to get BETTER, not younger.

oK.. So how do you know our TE wont be better.. and how do you know Barnidge will maintain.. in football most players in their 30s start to slide.. players in their 2/3 year do improve..

My point continues to be some of you just assume players wont be good or improve... and those that played well , will just keep playing well..

It seems if some of you were GMs.. you would just turn the team over every two years..

(05-03-2017, 05:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fine, if you're so confident I don't know that... I'm willing to accept any sig bet you want to create prior to the start of any season that Uzomah won't get 1,000+ yards receiving in that season.

What stocks should I buy over the next fives year.. since you can see in the future.. 

so i am guessing after five season and Barnidge had 30 or so catches and 3 TDs.. you were predicting his big season at Cleveland.. this is the problem with some people .. they just count out our players.. and ignore that other good players also struggled in first few years before they did well...

(05-03-2017, 10:38 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: oK.. So how do you know our TE wont be better.. and how do you know Barnidge will maintain.. in football most players in their 30s start to slide.. players in their 2/3 year do improve..

My point continues to be some of you just assume players wont be good or improve... and those that played well , will just keep playing well..

It seems if some of you were GMs.. you would just turn the team over every two years..

Everything you are asking could be flipped right back at you.

How do you guys know Kroft will be better? And how do you guys know Barnidge will fall off? Let's just admit that neither of us know, but some of us aren't quite sold on Kroft's potential. 

I don't always ask for aging players to take the position of a young player, so no...I wouldn't "flip the roster". In most cases, I would actually be against taking an aging player over a young one...but when you consider all factors (Eifert's health, his importance to the offense, lack of anyone proven behind him, and that Kroft has been a disappointment), this is one case where I'd consider it.

I don't think it's as crazy an idea as you guys make it seem.

(05-04-2017, 12:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Everything you are asking could be flipped right back at you.

How do you guys know Kroft will be better? And how do you guys know Barnidge will fall off? Let's just admit that neither of us know, but some of us aren't quite sold on Kroft's potential. 

I don't always ask for aging players to take the position of a young player, so no...I wouldn't "flip the roster". In most cases, I would actually be against taking an aging player over a young one...but when you consider all factors (Eifert's health, his importance to the offense, lack of anyone proven behind him, and that Kroft has been a disappointment), this is one case where I'd consider it.

I don't think it's as crazy an idea as you guys make it seem.

"Martellus Bennett? Who needs the putz, we have Clay Harbor." - Never said Bill Belichick on his way to winning the Super Bowl.