(09-16-2017, 09:42 AM)McC Wrote: It is certainly not all on Andy but he sure owns a big piece of the pie.  I'm all for giving AJM a look.  At the very least, he does not play scared.  And scared is what is killing Dalton right now.

Yeah, AJM won't play scared ... until he's been behind this OLine for a game or 2 and realizes they can't block for shit.

(09-16-2017, 09:42 AM)McC Wrote: It is certainly not all on Andy but he sure owns a big piece of the pie.  I'm all for giving AJM a look.  At the very least, he does not play scared.  And scared is what is killing Dalton right now.

I agree to an extent. I think Dalton is terrified out there. Hell, I know I would be when you've got guys just coming at you every single play and our OL is worse than our border patrol. However, I don't think putting AJM in right now is the answer. In a way, you have to give Dalton a chance to correct this debacle. He's at least deserved that. However, I don't think that chance spreads over the remainder of the season. It must be immediate or go to plan B. Although I don't think we are a team who even has a snowballs chance in hell at making the playoffs this year, if your not going to eliminate the coaching staff and start to prepare for next season, then you better do what it takes to turn this one back around.

(09-16-2017, 09:59 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yeah, AJM won't play scared ... until he's been behind this OLine for a game or 2 and realizes they can't block for shit.

McC has a good point IMO. Buy yes, AJM would play scared as well after he picks his butt up of the ground 8 times in the first 2 games and every play he is rushed quicker than a Benny Hill skit. I think if Dalton doesn't right the ship, we will put game 5 on AJM. If he turns this shit around? Andy can then get the FUG out of town.

(09-16-2017, 10:13 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: McC has a good point IMO. Buy yes, AJM would play scared as well after he picks his butt up of the ground 8 times in the first 2 games and every play he is rushed quicker than a Benny Hill skit. I think if Dalton doesn't right the ship, we will put game 5 on AJM. If he turns this shit around? Andy can then get the FUG out of town.

I wouldn't mind putting AJM in due to Dalton's play this season (and to show the Dalton haters that it's not Dalton when AJM plays WORSE, but that's beside the point). However, Dalton is known for his quick release. AJM has not shown a quick release. And combined with his inexperience, I would fully expect him to be on the ground MORE than Dalton.

(09-16-2017, 10:19 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I would fully expect him to be on the ground MORE than Dalton.

I agree. I think he would have probably been sacked 12 times or more this season because he's a pocket guy and he plays fundamental football.

In Andy Dalton's last 5 football games he has thrown the ball 162 times. Of those 162 passes he has 2 TDs. Folks can look to put that blame on other things/people if they like, just don't expect too many people to agree that they are not missing the elephant in the room.

In contrast some folks that many said were inferior to Andy:

Jameis Winston- 6 TDs

Marcus Mariota- 4 TDs

Derek Carr- 8 TDs

Matt Stafford- 7 TDs

Kirk Cousins - 5 TDs

Sam Bradford- 10 TDs

Philip Rivers- 11 TDs

Alex Smith- 8 TDs

(09-16-2017, 10:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: In Andy Dalton's last 5 football games he has thrown the ball 162 times. Of those 162 passes he has 2 TDs. Folks can look to put that blame on other things/people if they like, just don't expect too many people to agree that they are not missing the elephant in the room.

Like the players who just had a mutiny to get the OC fired?

I guess those fools need to get with the program and see the QB is the problem.

(09-16-2017, 10:51 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Like the players who just had a mutiny to get the OC fired?

I guess those fools need to get with the program and see the QB is the problem.

Not THE problem, but certainly one of.  

(09-16-2017, 10:56 AM)McC Wrote: Not THE problem, but certainly one of.  

Agreed. He's not playing up to his standards this year. I can't imagine why. 

He needs to get better, I'll just leave it at that.

(09-16-2017, 10:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: In Andy Dalton's last 5 football games he has thrown the ball 162 times. Of those 162 passes he has 2 TDs. Folks can look to put that blame on other things/people if they like, just don't expect too many people to agree that they are not missing the elephant in the room.

In contrast some folks that many said were inferior to Andy:

Jameis Winston- 6 TDs

Marcus Mariota- 4 TDs

Derek Carr- 8 TDs

Matt Stafford- 7 TDs

Kirk Cousins - 5 TDs

Sam Bradford-  10 TDs

Philip Rivers- 11 TDs

Alex Smith- 8 TDs

Because as anyone who knows anything about football knows, TD passes rely only on the QB throwing them. It's the QB's responsibility to call a pass play in the red zone; it's the QB's responsibility to call the right pass play; it's the QB's responsibility to have the right personnel for said play; it's the QB's responsibility to block the defenders on said play; it's the QB's responsibility to get open on said play; it's the QB's responsibilty to catch the pass on said play; and it's the QB's responsibility to stay inbounds before catching said pass on said play.

So, yeah, I can see how it's only Dalton's fault for the lack of TD production in the last 5 games.

BTW, Dalton has 4 TDs in the last 6 games. 6 TDs in the last 7. Mind comparing those to those other guys for me? See if that still reinforces your meaningless point? Appreciate it.

(09-16-2017, 10:58 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed. He's not playing up to his standards this year. I can't imagine why. 

He needs to get better, I'll just leave it at that.

True he's been under pressure and the play calling has been shit but think of the open guys he's missed and how not missing them changes everything and not hitting Suggs in the face with a pass or that disgraceful pick in the end zone where the receiver was double covered before the LB stepped in.  Andy has been guilty of sukking in his own right.

Andy Dalton is a proven comodety. He has proven when given time to throw he can shred even the nfl's best defenses.

You don't replace a QB who has been nothing but solid. You build around him get him weapons better protection. The issue right now is the bad protection in front of him (I felt play designs too but they have now replaced their OC.)

(09-16-2017, 10:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: In Andy Dalton's last 5 football games he has thrown the ball 162 times. Of those 162 passes he has 2 TDs. Folks can look to put that blame on other things/people if they like, just don't expect too many people to agree that they are not missing the elephant in the room.

In contrast some folks that many said were inferior to Andy:

Jameis Winston- 6 TDs

Marcus Mariota- 4 TDs

Derek Carr- 8 TDs

Matt Stafford- 7 TDs

Kirk Cousins - 5 TDs

Sam Bradford-  10 TDs

Philip Rivers- 11 TDs

Alex Smith- 8 TDs

BTW, how many rushing TDs do each of those teams have in that same time fram? Just curious.

(09-16-2017, 11:03 AM)McC Wrote: True he's been under pressure and the play calling has been shit but think of the open guys he's missed and how not missing them changes everything and not hitting Suggs in the face with a pass or that disgraceful pick in the end zone where the receiver was double covered before the LB stepped in.  Andy has been guilty of sukking in his own right.

No one's denying that Dalton has played like crap this season (at least, none that I know of). What I don't understand is how people reach the conclusion that Dalton sucks? Yes, he's playing sucky, but there's some good reasons for why that's probably the case, given that in previous years, he's played way better than sucky.

(09-16-2017, 11:03 AM)McC Wrote: True he's been under pressure and the play calling has been shit but think of the open guys he's missed and how not missing them changes everything and not hitting Suggs in the face with a pass or that disgraceful pick in the end zone where the receiver was double covered before the LB stepped in.  Andy has been guilty of sukking in his own right.

I thought he shit himself week one. I don't think week 2 was nearly as bad, but people are carrying over their feelings from week 1 to week 2. Texans are a great defense with a great pass rush. He didn't have a good game by any stretch, but it wasn't awful. He completed a couple deep throws. Would've had a TD if not for Eifert stepping out. No turnovers. One bad miss with LaFell. 

In short, I'm not happy with Dalton's performance in 2017, but if you want me to join everyone else and break out a pitchfork, it's not happening over 1 terrible game and one below-average game. Not when there's 6 full years of evidence that Dalton is better than this. People are just looking for scapegoats, ala TO, Chad, Palmer, etc. I didn't buy it then, and I'm not buying it now.

The players just had a mutiny, and it wasn't to get Dalton benched for McCarron, it was to get the OC fired. That tells a lot, if you're willing to listen.

(09-16-2017, 11:13 AM)PhilHos Wrote: No one's denying that Dalton has played like crap this season (at least, none that I know of). What I don't understand is how people reach the conclusion that Dalton sucks? Yes, he's playing sucky, but there's some good reasons for why that's probably the case, given that in previous years, he's played way better than sucky.

Let me put it this way--under the current conditions, Andy cannot get the job done.  Could anyone else?  Who knows?  But Andy won't.  Maybe Lazor pulls some magic out of his sleeve and figures out how to scheme around this fiasco. 

Everything Andy improved on over the years has gone out the window.  Keep the pressure on him and he folds like a cheap suit.  Can't improvise worth a damn, very weak at throwing on the run, unable to lift his team unless the conditions are exactly right.  When he leaves the pocket, the play is usually over.  And when he gets rattled, his mechanics turn to shit. Good luck scheming around that, Bill.

(09-16-2017, 11:21 AM)McC Wrote: Let me put it this way--under the current conditions, Andy cannot get the job done.  Could anyone else?  Who knows?  But Andy won't.  Maybe Lazor pulls some magic out of his sleeve and figures out how to scheme around this fiasco. 

Everything Andy improved on over the years has gone out the window.  Keep the pressure on him and he folds like a cheap suit.  Can't improvise worth a damn, very weak at throwing on the run, unable to lift his team unless the conditions are exactly right.  When he leaves the pocket, the play is usually over.  And when he gets rattled, his mechanics turn to shit. Good luck scheming around that, Bill.

Dalton looked very good throwing on the run last year and in 2014/15 something that improved dramaticly since going to House.


For everyone:
Offensive line play and Offensive coordinators are very important. Let's look at the Steelers. In 2012 and 2013 the Squeelers with a HoF QB went two seasons of 8-8. Why? Their Bruce Arians offense was built to push thr ball down field and their offensive line went to shit. In 2014 they flipped it with a new OC and more talent on the offensive line and went 11-5 and have been on a roll since.

(09-16-2017, 11:21 AM)McC Wrote: Everything Andy improved on over the years has gone out the window.  Keep the pressure on him and he folds like a cheap suit.  Can't improvise worth a damn, very weak at throwing on the run, unable to lift his team unless the conditions are exactly right.  When he leaves the pocket, the play is usually over.  And when he gets rattled, his mechanics turn to shit. Good luck scheming around that, Bill.

Yes I agree with this. Everything Andy improved on went away the first two weeks. 

That said, I think saying that Dalton can't lift his team unless the conditions are exactly right is a bit much.

Dalton has lifted the team many times in the past when the run game was bad (every year) or the o-line isn't blocking (2012 and 2016), or when receivers were injured (2014 and 2016)...but there aren't just a couple things wrong right now. The entire offense was a shit show to the point that the Bengals fired a coordinator midseason for the first time in their entire 50 year history. 

(09-16-2017, 11:34 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yes I agree with this. Everything Andy improved on went away the first two weeks. 

That said, I think saying that Dalton can't lift his team unless the conditions are exactly right is a bit much.

Dalton has lifted the team many times in the past when the run game was bad (every year) or the o-line isn't blocking (2012 and 2016), but there aren't just a couple things wrong right now. The entire offense was a shit show to the point that the Bengals fired a coordinator midseason for the first time in their entire 50 year history. 

Guess we'll see.  What we're looking at is a snowball rolling downhill.  At this point, it's about the size of a bowling ball.  Given Marvin's teams propensity to fall into the here we go again syndrome, we are at the edge of disaster and that snowball can easily and quickly turn into an absolute avalanche.  So,  let's go play the Packers in their place and turn this around.  Okay.

(09-16-2017, 11:41 AM)McC Wrote: Guess we'll see.  What we're looking at is a snowball rolling downhill.  At this point, it's about the size of a bowling ball.  Given Marvin's teams propensity to fall into the here we go again syndrome, we are at the edge of disaster and that snowball can easily and quickly turn into an absolute avalanche.  So,  let's go play the Packers in their place and turn this around.  Okay.

It certainly feels that way, and I have zero confidence in Marv at this point. I may feel differently about Dalton if I don't see a drastic turnaround soon. 

That said, if he's ruined, I'm not going to hate him for it. Not with this team's history.

(09-16-2017, 11:44 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It certainly feels that way, and I have zero confidence in Marv at this point. I may feel differently about Dalton if I don't see a drastic turnaround soon. 

That said, if he's ruined, I'm not going to hate him for it. Not with this team's history.

I wouldn't hate him either.  It ain't personal.  I'm just commenting on what has happened and that is really bad QB play independent of the bad stuff around him.