I think that if the window is shut and this team goes into a true rebuilding mode, you're going to see a LOT of fans leave.
Yes, a lot of fans lived through the "dark decade" of the 90's, but good luck telling them they could be going back into it again.
The fans had a taste of consistent success (albeit not a ton of success), so that's the new norm people are willing to accept.
We're already seeing the stadium half-full with a 5-win team. Regressing even further will wipe out many people's interest even more.

(12-13-2017, 01:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think that if the window is shut and this team goes into a true rebuilding mode, you're going to see a LOT of fans leave.
Yes, a lot of fans lived through the "dark decade" of the 90's, but good luck telling them they could be going back into it again.
The fans had a taste of consistent success (albeit not a ton of success), so that's the new norm people are willing to accept.
We're already seeing the stadium half-full with a 5-win team. Regressing even further will wipe out many people's interest even more.

.....and getting rid of fan favorites like Geno, Burfict, Green, Dunlap/proven players for unproven ones will not help.

Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:.....and getting rid of fan favorites like Geno, Burfict, Green, Dunlap/proven players for unproven ones will not help.

Most fans can accept losing so long as their favorite players are being treated right. Folks tend to lose interest when that doesn't happen.

(12-12-2017, 06:18 PM)Interceptor Wrote: Clean house and start from square one. 
Do it correctly and start with the line on both sides of the ball and work outwards from there.
Build a sustainable team (a team that will be competitive for years to come), not a need-to-win-right-now team. 

Building from within wouldn't take a complete overhaul.

All you would need is the following:

1.  Quentin Nelson, OG - Notre Dame
2.  Billy Price, C - Ohio State

That would make the o-line MILES better then before.

The defense is in good shape.  Sure, you need to add some guys for the future, but the talent is there.

The offense is in good shape as well if you fix the line.  The skill guys are pretty good at WR and RB.   TE is a huge strength if Eifert comes back, but that's iffy at best.

(12-13-2017, 01:47 PM)snowy Wrote: Most fans can accept losing so long as their favorite players are being treated right. Folks tend to lose interest when that doesn't happen.

I cannot stand MB as much as the next fan but Marv is the one mistreating these players, not Mikey boy.

MB is paying these guys damn good money to play the game they love and Marv is handcuffing them.

Just because they go somewhere else doesn't mean they all would automically win a SB.

I think this team is not far off with a good HC and a competetent O-line coach.

Plus if Sunset is right and MB steps aside and hands the team over to Katie who hires a good GM who knows what could happen here.

(12-13-2017, 02:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I cannot stand MB as much as the next fan but Marv is the one mistreating these players, not Mikey boy.

MB is paying these guys damn good money to play the game they love and Marv is handcuffing them.

Just because they go somewhere else doesn't mean they all would automically win a SB.

I think this team is not far off with a good HC and a competetent O-line coach.

Plus if Sunset is right and MB steps aside and hands the team over to Katie who hires a good GM who knows what could happen here.

Really with free agency and a draft that rewards teams with poor records by picking higher...is any team that far off?

(12-13-2017, 02:08 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Building from within wouldn't take a complete overhaul.

All you would need is the following:

1.  Quentin Nelson, OG - Notre Dame
2.  Billy Price, C - Ohio State

That would make the o-line MILES better then before.

The defense is in good shape.  Sure, you need to add some guys for the future, but the talent is there.

The offense is in good shape as well if you fix the line.  The skill guys are pretty good at WR and RB.   TE is a huge strength if Eifert comes back, but that's iffy at best.

Or Andrew Norwell G in FA with Roquan Smith LB Georgia with our first pick, then Price...

It is actually pretty simple. If we get a new HC that can pick his own staff we might get a DC that can get the best
of this talented Defense too. I think Paulie G has been VERY underwhelming this year with the amount of talent he
has on his side of the ball.

(12-13-2017, 02:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Really with free agency and a draft that rewards teams with poor records by picking higher...is any team that far off?

I would say the Browns are pretty far off lol

Just saying i don't think it will help us to get rid of our proven players for unproven ones.

(12-13-2017, 02:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Or Andrew Norwell G in FA with Roquan Smith LB Georgia with our first pick, then Price...

It is actually pretty simple. If we get a new HC that can pick his own staff we might get a DC that can get the best
of this talented Defense too. I think Paulie G has been VERY underwhelming this year with the amount of talent he
has on his side of the ball.

Agreed on Guenther. Honestly, he's been with Marvin since about 2002. To expect him to be drastically different, likely isn't reality.

The defense has been a huge letdown. With all the offensive struggles...we were 1 big defensive stop at the end of the game away from atleast 2 and maybe 3 more wins.

(12-12-2017, 06:22 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: No way, if Marvin is not back there is not way this team has a shot at 4-12

Serious question: is ANYONE buying your schtick? 

If they would have built right around Atkins and Dunlap, they would have had a championship D. That window only has a year or so left, it’s too late. Andy was good, never great so I’m not worried about his window. AJ has a couple of very good years left. Hopefully he can hold onto the ball a ton better next year. He pretty much negated his athleticism this year with his hands. The team has lucked into a few very good players but Brown didn’t have the GM skills to capitalize.(sad)

(12-13-2017, 02:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agreed on Guenther. Honestly, he's been with Marvin since about 2002. To expect him to be drastically different, likely isn't reality.

The defense has been a huge letdown. With all the offensive struggles...we were 1 big defensive stop at the end of the game away from atleast 2 and maybe 3 more wins.

Yeah, i want a clean sweep really bad. About the only guys i think have done pretty well this year are Lazor and maybe
Burney and these guys haven't been great or anything. Marv, Guenther, Coyle, Haslett, PA and even Simmons and Urban
have all been bad.

Have to stop the run and Guenther's guys have not been getting it done with players that are built to stop it.

Billings, Glasgow and Tapou were all amazing run stoppers in college, i don't think it is the players and completely refuse
to believe it was cause we lost Peko. To me this is still crazy talk i hear once in awhile on here.

Again, if we have a new coaching staff and they are allowed to pick their guys, some of these guys may not be the guys they want. I understand fans become connected to players, I do too. If a new coaching staff decides they want to bring in different players that better fit what they're trying to do, some of these guys could be traded and allowed to walk. If that is to be the case, I'd prefer trading them and getting what we can instead of letting them walk and hoping for high compensatory picks.

Not really sure how much power/authority/control a new head coach will be given, but if he wants to make changes, rebuild, or bring in his own guys, you have to let that process play out. If you want the good that comes with a new coach, you also have to accept the potential bad in that coach may not want to keep the players you like. Athleticism and talent are great, but you also want the players to fit the schemes you're trying to build or run. Honestly, if we were to try and become a run first team, a guy like Dalton isn't necessary under center. While people can hate on him all they want, he's an above average passer. If we're only wanting to throw 20-25 time a game, you can trade Dalton for all you can get, have an offensive identity as a run first team, and bring in a new/different QB to run the system. That may not be what a new coach may want to do, but I was just using that as an example of a part of the core being able to be moved. Green would kind of fall into that group as well. If passing isn't going to be the identity, do you need a high priced WR who's getting a handful of looks a game or invest that money in more maulers on the OLine to open up holes for the RBs?

Once we see who the potential new coach is and what direction he wants to go, a lot of this will become more clear. Especially finding out how much he's going to be allowed to run his team. I don't want to see some of those guys in different uniforms, but if they don't fit what the new coach is trying to do, I understand if some of them are gone.

(12-13-2017, 03:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, i want a clean sweep really bad. About the only guys i think have done pretty well this year are Lazor and maybe
Burney and these guys haven't been great or anything. Marv, Guenther, Coyle, Haslett, PA and even Simmons and Urban
have all been bad.

Have to stop the run and Guenther's guys have not been getting it done with players that are built to stop it.

Billings, Glasgow and Tapou were all amazing run stoppers in college, i don't think it is the players and completely refuse
to believe it was cause we lost Peko. To me this is still crazy talk i hear once in awhile on here.

The biggest negative I have on Lazor is that even after the offensive line started playing better and run blocking better...the offense has still been bad at scoring points.

Our defensive scheme needs totally revamped. We've been playing it for a long time and I think that teams know how to attack it. There are a bunch of factors likely, but that's one that I see.

(12-14-2017, 01:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The biggest negative I have on Lazor is that even after the offensive line started playing better and run blocking better...the offense has still been bad at scoring points.

Our defensive scheme needs totally revamped. We've been playing it for a long time and I think that teams know how to attack it. There are a bunch of factors likely, but that's one that I see.

True on both accounts. Enima, this team needs an enima!

(12-14-2017, 02:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True on both accounts. Enima, this team needs an enima!

Really puzzling when the offense is running the ball pretty good against the Steelers and the Bears yet the offense can't score.

That gives me pause in that maybe fixing the offensive line won't fix things? Maybe the problems are deeper? I don't really know in that regard.

(12-14-2017, 03:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Really puzzling when the offense is running the ball pretty good against the Steelers and the Bears yet the offense can't score.

That gives me pause in that maybe fixing the offensive line won't fix things? Maybe the problems are deeper? I don't really know in that regard.

Might need to add another big redzone threat like Eifert. I like Kroft but i don't think he is on this par.

Also believe that the lack of an explosive Receiver besides AJ keeps on hurting us. I know Lafell can get some yards
but we really need explosiveness and Receivers that can get seperation plus go up for balls. Malone fits this mold as
does the other rookie we did not use this year...

It is coaching once again.

(12-14-2017, 04:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Might need to add another big redzone threat like Eifert. I like Kroft but i don't think he is on this par.

Also believe that the lack of an explosive Receiver besides AJ keeps on hurting us. I know Lafell can get some yards
but we really need explosiveness and Receivers that can get seperation plus go up for balls. Malone fits this mold as
does the other rookie we did not use this year...

It is coaching once again.

We COULD compete next year IF we make the right moves. Sign 1 or 2 quality lineman.

Then draft an impact player in the 1st Round...whether it's DT, LB, S, or another Lineman. We need a guy who can start and upgrade a position where we are graded Poor.

Then in the 2nd Round, more of the same. That's prime territory for a Center or LB.

I'd then try to trade back up into the 2nd Round for more talent.

Heck - IF we could get 3 talented players with our top 3 picks I'd be really happy. A guy like Christopher Herndon at TE would be nice too in the 4th Round.

Then, IF the coach can rejuvenate some of our busts: Ced, Fisher, Ross, Vigil, Evans, Billings, Core and get 2-3 of those guys to be productive...we're so much better.

(12-14-2017, 05:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We COULD compete next year IF we make the right moves. Sign 1 or 2 quality lineman.

Then draft an impact player in the 1st Round...whether it's DT, LB, S, or another Lineman. We need a guy who can start and upgrade a position where we are graded Poor.

Then in the 2nd Round, more of the same. That's prime territory for a Center or LB.

I'd then try to trade back up into the 2nd Round for more talent.

Heck - IF we could get 3 talented players with our top 3 picks I'd be really happy. A guy like Christopher Herndon at TE would be nice too in the 4th Round.

Then, IF the coach can rejuvenate some of our busts: Ced, Fisher, Ross, Vigil, Evans, Billings, Core and get 2-3 of those guys to be productive...we're so much better.

For sure, need to add a Guard or Center in FA before the draft and that would be a great start. That will dictate a lot
on how we go early in the Draft. If we go Guard in FA i am wanting Center in the 2nd, if we go Center Quentin Nelson
sure seems like the pick or Connor Williams in the 1st.

BTW, heard you speak of Herndon before, what team is he on? Have to study up on this guy.

Mark Andrews TE Oklahoma will probably be gone early, he reminds me of Jason Witten.

Football is like domino's. If we get a coach who puts focus on running game we can get stud offensive lineman. Mixon/Gio will perform better which will open up the passing game and dalton can be serviceable. If you get a coach who thinks we should have this fast paced offensive passing game then shutter the doors because all this talent is wasted.