Even off a losing season the consensus seemed to be that apart from OT/C we had playoff talent across the board helped with a strong infusion of young players - and that it was the coaching blocking us from playoff success

We've had a long look at this team now and I'm really not so sure that the talent is really there like people think...

We seem to have an aging core of pro bowl players who even in their 'peak' did not win a playoff game, we have an awful lot of very pedestrian talent in the middle of the roster, and the youngsters appear to be getting exposed with more playing time.

Is there really any one position where you would say we are really set / playoff quality right now??

Maybe RB with Gio & Mixon  (may be overstating Mixon potential)
Maybe CB with WJax, Dennard and Dre K  (that may be pushing it)
Maybe DE if they play Lawson and Dunlap
Our punter and long snapper are pretty good  (OK , I'm getting desperate here )

Our OLine is weak,  our Safety play is very limited with no difference makers, our LBs are pedestrian apart from Burfict (who consistently misses time) , our WR group is a mess and our best one is having arguably his worst season, our QBs are limited game managers, our best TE is an injury liability,  DT is Geno and no-one else right now.

At the start of the year I would have been in the camp that's says a Sean McVay type of turnaround with the right HC candidate was a good possibility ..now I'm not so sure

Hard to tell. If we had a coach that inserted discipline into this team anything can happen. We have talent, but the team looks like a bunch of 3rd graders at recess.

(12-18-2017, 08:44 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Hard to tell. If we had a coach that inserted discipline into this team anything can happen. We have talent, but the team looks like a bunch of 3rd graders at recess.

After the playoff loss in 2015 I would have agreed...we seemed to be loaded on both sides of the ball and if not for the losses of discipline we should have had playoff success.

However after the free agency drain in 2016 and 2017 we continue to lack consistent quality across the roster.  

Because we're fans we obviously try and talk up the talent based on the slightest sliver of productions but I look at Billings, Rey , Vigil, Williams, MJ, Lafell, Malone, Core , Ross, Uzomah, Hopkins, Ced, Fish, Bodine, etc, etc.....that's a lot of starters/contributors or potentially soon to be starters who right now are simply not playoff level talent.

Put it another way....talent wise are we nearer the Browns than we are to the Steelers right now ??  

I'm sure people's instant, emotional reaction would be to say we are just off the Steelers but seriously look down our current list of starters and tell me if you were not a Bengals fan you say there is the quality there for playoff success...

I think this team is a 53 gun Man of War, but the rudder has been shot off so it is a sitting duck.....

(12-18-2017, 09:22 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think this team is a 53 gun Man of War, but the rudder has been shot off so it is a sitting duck.....

I really hope you are right...and we only have to replace the rudder!

I think that we have the talent to make a push, but not to win the super bowl. We need to upgrade our OL first and foremost, and then get a couple of good LBs and we probably could win a SB with the right coach.

I think there roster definitely needs some retooling, especially on the o-line, and at WR, LB and S. These units have to be a priority, in my opinion, if this team is going to have any success next season. 

Some might not have WR on their priority list, but right now, this group is very pedestrian outside of AJ...and Ross is still an unknown at this point. 

Schematically, this team is awful. They go from never doing bootlegs and waggles to doing something like 10 straight and then went to the well once too often on a third and one and got sacked for a loss of 7 yards. Can't believe we STILL can't rush the ball for a yard on third and one or fourth and one.

Talent-wise, this team's biggest deficiencies lie in the middle:

1.) Middle of the offensive line has no push at all
2.) Middle of the defensive line, aside from Geno, has no push or ability to anchor.
3.) Middle of the field on defense, LBs and Safeties, are the weakest point on the entire team. We have two LBs that can cover (Vigil and Burfict) and no safeties. The lack of safety play is also a function of scheme and lack of LB play.

If this team is serious about winning (we all seem to have doubts there), they need to make some significant changes:

1.) Cut Shawn Williams. An absolute liability in coverage and a poor tackler. No idea why we extended him.
2.) Cut Brandon Lafell. Worst #2 WR in the league.
3.) NOT re-sign Eifert
4.) Not sign Bodine

Use these dollars in FA to build the offensive and defensive lines. I would find a veteran Center over any other position as a FA target. Draft LB, S, DT, G, OT. WRs, TEs, RBs, DEs, and CBs won't matter if the middle of the team is still such a massive black hole of suck.

Lastly, and I know this will flame people, but I would look for trade offers for AJ Green. A key line player plus a first rounder and I wouldn't think twice about it.

(12-18-2017, 09:38 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I think that we have the talent to make a push, but not to win the super bowl. We need to upgrade our OL first and foremost, and then get a couple of good LBs and we probably could win a SB with the right coach.

I used to believe this, but I just don't see it any more.  I think they have a B- roster with a D- coaching staff.  

(12-18-2017, 07:22 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Even off a losing season the consensus seemed to be that apart from OT/C we had playoff talent across the board helped with a strong infusion of young players - and that it was the coaching blocking us from playoff success

We've had a long look at this team now and I'm really not so sure that the talent is really there like people think...

We seem to have an aging core of pro bowl players who even in their 'peak' did not win a playoff game, we have an awful lot of very pedestrian talent in the middle of the roster, and the youngsters appear to be getting exposed with more playing time.

Is there really any one position where you would say we are really set / playoff quality right now??

Maybe RB with Gio & Mixon  (may be overstating Mixon potential)
Maybe CB with WJax, Dennard and Dre K  (that may be pushing it)
Maybe DE if they play Lawson and Dunlap
Our punter and long snapper are pretty good  (OK , I'm getting desperate here )

Our OLine is weak,  our Safety play is very limited with no difference makers, our LBs are pedestrian apart from Burfict (who consistently misses time) , our WR group is a mess and our best one is having arguably his worst season, our QBs are limited game managers, our best TE is an injury liability,  DT is Geno and no-one else right now.

At the start of the year I would have been in the camp that's says a Sean McVay type of turnaround with the right HC candidate was a good possibility ..now I'm not so sure

So at any point during the year we had 8-10 guys grading out as poor on the season from PFF. You can't win with that.

So then the issue becomes, were they bad draft picks? OR are they playing poorly because of coaching/scheme?

I think it's probably a little of both, but I think more lack of talent. We lost a lot of quality free agents over the past 2 years...and were 11-5 before all the departures.

LB'er and O-Line are the 2 biggest needs on this team (followed by safety), which need to be addressed this off season.

Any competent coach we hire will know this when he interviews and hopefully wouldn't take the gig until some sort of agreement was made that this will be addressed.....

The window is closed with this current group (Dalton/Green included). Everyone must go before this turns around. The Dalton/Green era died from an overdose of mediocrity.

The Bengals are done for at least another 5 years, and it's hard for me to imagine the Jungle being as loud and passionate as we say in games yesterday for at least that long.

Times are rough.

Only hope is that Mike Brown sexually harassed someone 40 years ago and it's about to come out to force him to sell his team.

(12-18-2017, 07:22 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Do we really have the players to succeed??

Team is at least 2 years away from being a true competitor provided new coach and new staff are hired and they get scouts and control over draft.

We also need to sign at least one high quality free agent in a position of need during the next two years. How about a high quality center and an above average offensive tackle.

Right now the team is awful. O line is a disaster, WRs not named AJ are below average or worse ( great idea letting Marvin jones walk), linebackers not named Burfict are awful.

Pass rush is OK. Safeties are average or below average.

I think Andy is a great man and person. I am starting to have serious doubts about his ability to lead a competitive team. It is a little unfair because his o line is so bad But I would not rule out drafting a franchise QB that is 6' 5" and mobile.

If major changes are not made, why would any of our high quality players like AJ or Geno want to play for this franchise when their contracts are up.

The team is a wreck and it is going down like a sinking ship if Brown hires Guenther or Simmons and a cheap staff, refuses to add scouts, refuses to build practice facility, etc.

At least, as John Thornton just said, they started providing bottled water for the players during Marvin's tenure. At least there is that.

Let all the starter positions be up for grabs.

(12-18-2017, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Schematically, this team is awful.  They go from never doing bootlegs and waggles to doing something like 10 straight and then went to the well once too often on a third and one and got sacked for a loss of 7 yards.  Can't believe we STILL can't rush the ball for a yard on third and one or fourth and one.

Talent-wise, this team's biggest deficiencies lie in the middle:

1.) Middle of the offensive line has no push at all
2.) Middle of the defensive line, aside from Geno, has no push or ability to anchor.  
3.) Middle of the field on defense, LBs and Safeties, are the weakest point on the entire team.  We have two LBs that can cover (Vigil and Burfict) and no safeties.  The lack of safety play is also a function of scheme and lack of LB play.

If this team is serious about winning (we all seem to have doubts there), they need to make some significant changes:

1.) Cut Shawn Williams.  An absolute liability in coverage and a poor tackler.  No idea why we extended him.
2.) Cut Brandon Lafell.  Worst #2 WR in the league.
3.) NOT re-sign Eifert
4.) Not sign Bodine

Use these dollars in FA to build the offensive and defensive lines.  I would find a veteran Center over any other position as a FA target.  Draft LB, S, DT, G, OT.  WRs, TEs, RBs, DEs, and CBs won't matter if the middle of the team is still such a massive black hole of suck.

Lastly, and I know this will flame people, but I would look for trade offers for AJ Green.  A key line player plus a first rounder and I wouldn't think twice about it.

I always found it strange that on one hand in the Tobin era we were all about 'best player available' , and then Hobson always talks about the investment needing to be in the perimeter players like CB, OT, WR.

If you get a pro bowl quality LB, Safety or center surely that just helps your roster get better full stop...

Hobson "you can never have enough first round Corners.."
Bengal nation " how does that help a run game averaging less than 3 ypc?"

(12-18-2017, 10:22 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So at any point during the year we had 8-10 guys grading out as poor on the season from PFF. You can't win with that.

So then the issue becomes, were they bad draft picks? OR are they playing poorly because of coaching/scheme?

I think it's probably a little of both, but I think more lack of talent. We lost a lot of quality free agents over the past 2 years...and were 11-5 before all the departures.

That's how I see it, too.  We had a top offense in 2015 and we went into 2016 having lost Hue, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Eifert (because he was hurt) and we convinced ourselves that Hue was too cute, Jones and Sanu were easy to replace with Lafell, Eifert being hurt would open the door for Kroft, and Zampese would tie it all together by being in over his head and having to let Dalton call the shots.

2016 was a big step backwards.  Then we go into 2017 having lost our 2 best o-linemen and we are back to convincing ourselves that we made the right move by letting people walk, again.  We are more inclined to let people go and less inclined to sign FA's to plug the holes we allow to appear...and we have 2 really bad seasons back-to-back to show for it.

Seriously, 6 wins and now what...probably a 5 or 6 win season?  To put this in perspective, prior to the Browns completely blowing things up these past few years, they've been good for about 5 wins per year since they were last semi-relevant.  We are looking at our 2nd season in a row of being slightly better than one could expect the Browns to be.  Ouch.

(12-18-2017, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Schematically, this team is awful.  They go from never doing bootlegs and waggles to doing something like 10 straight and then went to the well once too often on a third and one and got sacked for a loss of 7 yards.  Can't believe we STILL can't rush the ball for a yard on third and one or fourth and one.

Talent-wise, this team's biggest deficiencies lie in the middle:

1.) Middle of the offensive line has no push at all
2.) Middle of the defensive line, aside from Geno, has no push or ability to anchor.  
3.) Middle of the field on defense, LBs and Safeties, are the weakest point on the entire team.  We have two LBs that can cover (Vigil and Burfict) and no safeties.  The lack of safety play is also a function of scheme and lack of LB play.

If this team is serious about winning (we all seem to have doubts there), they need to make some significant changes:

1.) Cut Shawn Williams.  An absolute liability in coverage and a poor tackler.  No idea why we extended him.
2.) Cut Brandon Lafell.  Worst #2 WR in the league.
3.) NOT re-sign Eifert
4.) Not sign Bodine

Use these dollars in FA to build the offensive and defensive lines.  I would find a veteran Center over any other position as a FA target.  Draft LB, S, DT, G, OT.  WRs, TEs, RBs, DEs, and CBs won't matter if the middle of the team is still such a massive black hole of suck.

Lastly, and I know this will flame people, but I would look for trade offers for AJ Green.  A key line player plus a first rounder and I wouldn't think twice about it.

Easy, he was cheaper than Reggie.

(12-18-2017, 07:22 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Even off a losing season the consensus seemed to be that apart from OT/C we had playoff talent across the board helped with a strong infusion of young players - and that it was the coaching blocking us from playoff success

We've had a long look at this team now and I'm really not so sure that the talent is really there like people think...

We seem to have an aging core of pro bowl players who even in their 'peak' did not win a playoff game, we have an awful lot of very pedestrian talent in the middle of the roster, and the youngsters appear to be getting exposed with more playing time.

Is there really any one position where you would say we are really set / playoff quality right now??

Maybe RB with Gio & Mixon  (may be overstating Mixon potential)
Maybe CB with WJax, Dennard and Dre K  (that may be pushing it)
Maybe DE if they play Lawson and Dunlap
Our punter and long snapper are pretty good  (OK , I'm getting desperate here )

Our OLine is weak,  our Safety play is very limited with no difference makers, our LBs are pedestrian apart from Burfict (who consistently misses time) , our WR group is a mess and our best one is having arguably his worst season, our QBs are limited game managers, our best TE is an injury liability,  DT is Geno and no-one else right now.

At the start of the year I would have been in the camp that's says a Sean McVay type of turnaround with the right HC candidate was a good possibility ..now I'm not so sure

Here's a list of players I consider good or better:
AJ Green
Clint Boling
Joe Mixon
Giovani Bernard
Geno Atkins
Carlos Dunlap
Carl Lawson
Vontaze Burfict
William Jackson III
George Iloka
Darqueze Dennard
Jordan Willis
Andy Dalton

Tyler Kroft I consider a decent enough starter at TE if this team were to deemphasize TE from a pass catching perspective. In other words, if the team makes the TE the fourth or fifth option, Kroft is ok enough.
I consider Shawn Williams to be a rather solid in-the-box SS, but there aren't enough turnovers with the safeties between him and Iloka. Both are SS IMO.
I think Josh Shaw has had a down year, but overall I'd like to keep him around for DB depth. I still think he'd be best used as a roaming FS.

I think the top three positions that need replaced are all on OL. Center absolutely must be upgraded. LT is a desire to upgrade but there may not be a clear cut upgrade in the draft and there doesn't look to be one in upcoming FA. RG I think could be easily upgraded.
When it comes to defense, this team definitely could use another LB to pair with Burfict, and sadly Billings hasn't been what I thought he'd be. But this is essentially his rookie year and he's still really young. I'd like to give Billings one more year at NT before considering a replacement.
As for WR, LaFell absolutely needs to be cut. Honestly, I didn't see a ton from LaFell last year to think he was that much better than Boyd, and I thought both were solid. And LaFell has been awful this year and taking snaps away from the other WRs. If the Bengals wanted to look for an upgrade at WR, I think there are some solid options in FA. Marqise Lee I think would pair well with AJ with Boyd in the slot while Ross and Malone develop.

(12-18-2017, 09:46 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: I think there roster definitely needs some retooling, especially on the o-line, and at WR, LB and S. These units have to be a priority, in my opinion, if this team is going to have any success next season. 

Some might not have WR on their priority list, but right now, this group is very pedestrian outside of AJ...and Ross is still an unknown at this point. 

Yep. And even spots like Defensive Line may need additions with Atkins, Dunlap, and MJ set to be free agents after next year.