(01-29-2018, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know why so many people keep saying this.  Just three years ago the same people were complaining about using both a first and second round pick on O-line.

MB made Levi Jones and Willie Anderson the highest paid pair of starting tackles in the league.  He has also paid lots of other O-linemen well including Bobboe Williams, Whitworth, Andre Smith, Stacey Andrews, and Clint Boling.

In 2015 we used a first and second round pick on O-linemen

In 2014 we traded up in the third round to get an O-lineman.

In 2012 we used a first round pick on an O-lineman.

In 2009 we used a first round pick on an O-lineman.

 
 

And yet we have the worst offensive line in the league

(01-29-2018, 02:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Casual fans love skill position players and QB's. That's where Mike seems to invest the most.

Even now, a lot of fans are thinking a new QB will fix things.

Yeah, it's sad really. I'm not in love with Dalton at all, but he's better than many other options and whoever comes in is going to have to deal with the sieve up front. The team would be much better off with Dalton + a fixed OL than with another QB and the same shitty line.

(01-29-2018, 02:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Casual fans love skill position players and QB's. That's where Mike seems to invest the most.

Even now, a lot of fans are thinking a new QB will fix things.

I blame fantasy football.

(01-29-2018, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know why so many people keep saying this.  Just three years ago the same people were complaining about using both a first and second round pick on O-line.

MB made Levi Jones and Willie Anderson the highest paid pair of starting tackles in the league.  He has also paid lots of other O-linemen well including Bobboe Williams, Whitworth, Andre Smith, Stacey Andrews, and Clint Boling.

In 2015 we used a first and second round pick on O-linemen

In 2014 we traded up in the third round to get an O-lineman.

In 2012 we used a first round pick on an O-lineman.

In 2009 we used a first round pick on an O-lineman.

 
 

You are missing the point, again.

Those 2015 OL draft picks didn't work out in 2015 or 2016 and yet the team let two better OL players walk at the end of 2016, keeping the two 2015 draft busts. They sucked bad in 2017, just like they did in 2016. So, one year later, same problem exists.

After 4 years of poor center play the teams wants to continue with the same center. Why? Why not just get a good center and keep him? Problem solved.

It's not the draft picks or the rounds they were selected in that matters. It's whether or not they can play the f'n position.

Ogbuehi might be very athletic, but he can't play OT. Why even bother with him? At all?

Just cut these guys loose and bring in some guys who are football players first.

(01-26-2018, 05:56 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: The New OL coach seemed to like bodine...   So ill give him a chance to work with him before I condemn the move.   he seemed to play well in the changed scheme the last few games. But I haven't looked at PFF or anything to confirm

But I think its smart to at least sign him to a small team friendly deal (not gonna be a ton of demand on the market... )  cause if we cant sign or draft a center that's an upgrade then we are better off with the guys that's been doing it the last 4 years I think than someone that couldn't unseat him the last 2.

What's this with being reasonable? Are you begging or just asking for the ban hammer? 

I hear where you''re coming from. I don't see the point of putting a lot of money into Bodine. If the new OC thinks he wants to work with him, it would actually be dumb to close the door on him. But if there's an upgrade available to us in the draft or FA, we have to at least consider it, if not jump on it. 

(01-29-2018, 02:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: NFL.com had Bodine listed as a 3-4.
4th round was appropriate for him I think.

Yes they did. And several other sources had him projected 5-7. I think it's pretty safe to say "most experts" was pretty much NFL.com and they were obviously wrong. 

Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.

(01-26-2018, 05:56 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: The New OL coach seemed to like bodine...   So ill give him a chance to work with him before I condemn the move.   he seemed to play well in the changed scheme the last few games. But I haven't looked at PFF or anything to confirm

But I think its smart to at least sign him to a small team friendly deal (not gonna be a ton of demand on the market... )  cause if we cant sign or draft a center that's an upgrade then we are better off with the guys that's been doing it the last 4 years I think than someone that couldn't unseat him the last 2.

I'm with you on this, and that's one of the things I laugh at with our fan base.

People always are mad about a starter and wanting the team to release them, instead of releasing the bottom of the depth chart at that position and bringing in someone better than the starter.  You know what you have in that starter.  Bring in someone better and get rid of the lowest man on the totem pole.  Make the incumbent starter the floor instead of the ceiling.  In my mind, THAT is how you improve your roster.

(02-01-2018, 03:46 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, it's sad really. I'm not in love with Dalton at all, but he's better than many other options and whoever comes in is going to have to deal with the sieve up front. The team would be much better off with Dalton + a fixed OL than with another QB and the same shitty line.

I'm not in love with him either. I just know that our problems are more complex than a simple swap of QB's. There's the o-line issues you mention, the head coach is possibly the worst big-game coach in NFL history, and the owner is also probably the worst in history. Any new QB will be saddled with all those things, and he'll probably fail against the Steelers, in prime-time and in the playoffs, just as Palmer and Dalton did.

(02-01-2018, 10:32 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I blame fantasy football.

You're probably right. Think of all the defensive stars of the past. Icons like Reggie White, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Mean Joe, etc etc. Those guys were all stars that people tuned in to see. Outside of JJ Watt, there really aren't many defensive superstars over the last decade or so. People don't tune in for defense. I'm sure some might disagree, but it seems that way to me.

(02-04-2018, 03:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not in love with him either. I just know that our problems are more complex than a simple swap of QB's. There's the o-line issues you mention, the head coach is possibly the worst big-game coach in NFL history, and the owner is also probably the worst in history. Any new QB will be saddled with all those things, and he'll probably fail against the Steelers, in prime-time and in the playoffs, just as Palmer and Dalton did.


You're probably right. Think of all the defensive stars of the past. Icons like Reggie White, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Mean Joe, etc etc. Those guys were all stars that people tuned in to see. Outside of JJ Watt, there really aren't many defensive superstars over the last decade or so. People don't tune in for defense. I'm sure some might disagree, but it seems that way to me.

I have a feeling the Bengals wont  be playing much on primetime this year.  We are not media darlings anyway and 2 straight losing seasons pretty much kill that (Thank God).

(02-04-2018, 03:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not in love with him either. I just know that our problems are more complex than a simple swap of QB's. There's the o-line issues you mention, the head coach is possibly the worst big-game coach in NFL history, and the owner is also probably the worst in history. Any new QB will be saddled with all those things, and he'll probably fail against the Steelers, in prime-time and in the playoffs, just as Palmer and Dalton did.


You're probably right. Think of all the defensive stars of the past. Icons like Reggie White, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Mean Joe, etc etc. Those guys were all stars that people tuned in to see. Outside of JJ Watt, there really aren't many defensive superstars over the last decade or so. People don't tune in for defense. I'm sure some might disagree, but it seems that way to me.

Blame it on the pussification of actually being allowed to hit and tackle. The rules dictate huge advantage to offense including the hypocrysy of allowing offensive lineman to bust DL heads every play. I miss the days of defensive players having a bigger tackling target area, it is the pussification I referred to because they think they can stop major injuries when like boxing, you allow  2 guys to hit each other with full force injuries will and do happen anyway.

(01-28-2018, 04:48 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Once again this change stuff was all bullshit. The lower level coaches faces have changed but guess what? The organizations philosophy has stayed exactly the same. I keep hearing how a new line coach could help Bodine and these other guys that are getting out muscled and pushed around. How exactly do you coach strength? This isn’t a bench press contest either, it doesn’t mean jack what Bodine can bench press. Maybe he doesn’t have enough lower body strength or has slow reflexes. I’m not buying that it’s all about technique. The main point is that my Brown is staying the same stubborn ass course.

Have to agree with your assessment of the situation.  Changing down-stream coaches likely doesn't change anything in the over all scheme because M&M are still in charge.  The publicity given to the press about big changes was intended to give fans their annual dose of hope - albeit false.

(01-26-2018, 04:56 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: As long as the money is not too bad then he can fight for starting spot and maybe still be a back up if he gets beat  out. He might also look like a different player with a different coach.

This.  Bodine's, uh, strength (cough, choke, puke in mouth a little) is drive-blocking, not the slide-blocking scheme that never generates a cut-back lane.  He, like others, could benefit tremendously in the run game by having a better scheme but I don't see how that helps him not get thrown in to Dalton's lap on passing downs.  The guy simply doesn't have the sand in his pants when he isn't attacking.  

I wonder if Dalton reads things like this and thinks:  "Hmmmm....maybe I should wear track shoes?"

(01-26-2018, 06:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This would only be true if every "quality" Center in the draft is gone in the first 11 picks of the draft.
Joking aside, the Bengals "can" easily draft or sign a center that's an upgrade if they want. It's more their choice of how limiting they want to be that filters out some of the top candidates.
E.g. Waiting until Round 4 or later to draft a center or put a low limit on what you're willing to spend in FA.

are we sure....  Guys might look like an upgrade but not play like one...  Everyone was glad we replaced cook.  then we got bodine...  be careful what we wish for...

Not every prospect pans out close to their projections.

(02-04-2018, 10:17 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Blame it on the pussification of actually being allowed to hit and tackle. The rules dictate huge advantage to offense including the hypocrysy of allowing offensive lineman to bust DL heads every play. I miss the days of defensive players having a bigger tackling target area, it is the pussification I referred to because they think they can stop major injuries when like boxing, you allow  2 guys to hit each other with full force injuries will and do happen anyway.

Totally agree that these are the reasons why. Now I agree with the NFL trying to make the games safer, and big hits never mattered to me, personally. But...the rule changes that favor offense are the bigger culprit anyway, IMO. Plus, if you're going to look out for safety, at least make it fair. Defensive players aren't protected like offensive players are. Defense has just been getting the shaft for so long now.

(02-05-2018, 12:35 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: are we sure....  Guys might look like an upgrade but not play like one...  Everyone was glad we replaced cook.  then we got bodine...  be careful what we wish for...

Not every prospect pans out close to their projections.

That's part of scouting and why teams pay people to scout.
You would think/hope the Bengals have quality scouts that know how to identify good players or at least players that can be coached up with the current staff.

Do you have confidence the Bengals have excellent scouting and coaches?
I don't.

And the reason why I said this is only true if all the quality centers are gone by pick #12 is because of the comment that the Bengals "can't" find a quality center.
Is there really a reason to believe that there is no center in this upcoming draft better than Russell Bodine?
I'm definitely no expert when it comes to scouting, but from my personal research, I believe the following centers would be better than Russell Bodine:
Billy Price
James Daniels
Frank Ragnow

I think the following COULD be better than Bodine, but not as confident:
Bradley Bozeman
Mason Cole

And I doubt even one of those guys is gone by 12, so there should be plenty of opportunity to draft one of them if the team was really committed to finding an improvement for the position.

My thing is if the Bengals sign Bodine I’m assuming it will be for starting center money vs backup money. So If theirs a high rated center in the draft let’s say in round two like maybe Price or the kid from Iowa I think the Bengals logic would be were not drafting a center that high because were paying Bodine starting money.

(02-05-2018, 02:41 PM)lone bengal Wrote: My thing is if the Bengals sign Bodine I’m assuming it will be for starting center money vs backup money. So If theirs a high rated center in the draft let’s say in round two like maybe Price or the kid from Iowa I think the Bengals logic would be were not drafting a center that high because were paying Bodine starting money.

And your logic would be right. The only thing I can think of is Pollack sees something flawed with Bodine's mechanics or his system is very different than the last idiot's, that Russell fits better....

(02-01-2018, 07:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's not the draft picks or the rounds they were selected in that matters. It's whether or not they can play the f'n position.

Then we are talking about two different things.

The draft picks show how much the team values the offensive line, but it does not show how good they are at evaluating draft picks.

If this was a rational organization and the new O line coach wanted to keep Bodine to coach him up, it would be appropriate to defer to his judgment despite the overwhelming evidence that Bodine is one if the worst centers in the NFL and particularly awful against a 3-4 defense.

This is not a rational organization.