Players taken by each team in rounds 1 and 2 from 2013 to present (5 Drafts)  - How it impacts each Organization now

In an arguable descending order of talent actually shown on the field  (give or take order by shown on the field so far talent)


            Bengals                                                Steelers
         Tyler Eifert  (TE)                                    Le'Veon Bell  (RB)
     William Jackson III (Corner)                        Ryan Shazier  (LB)
         Joe Mixon  (RB)                                    Stephon Tuitt   (D-end)
         Gio Bernard  (RB)                            Ju Ju Smith Schuster  (WR)
         Jeremy Hill  (RB)                                      TJ Watt  (OLB)
        Darqueze Dennard (Corner)                       Artie Burns  (Corner)
          Tyler Boyd  (WR)                                   Bud Dupree   (LB)
          Jake Fisher  (Tackle)                                 Sean Davis   (Safety)
          Cedric Ogbuehi  (Tackle)                        Senquez Golson   (Corner)
          John Ross  (WR)                                    Jarvis Jones   (LB)

* This order is arguable and I created it quickly so I accept that some players may be switched around but you'll get the General point.

Bengals have taken 3 RB, 2 tackles, 2 corners, 2 wide receivers & 1 tight end in the 1st and 2nd rounds in the last 5 drafts

Steelers have taken 4 linebackers, 2 corners, 1 RB, 1 WR, 1 D-end & 1 safety in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the last 5 drafts

The Steelers landed a Superstar running back in Le'veon Bell with just one pick while we have used 3 picks to have a solid running back group.

Ryan Shazier was becoming a defensive Star before his injury, as was Tyler Eifert on offense who both may now be question marks due to health.

William Jackson III looks like a star player going forward.

Stephon Tuitt, TJ Watt, Ju Ju Smith Schuster, Artie Burns & Bud Dupree have shown solid signs and look to contribute a lot going forward for the Steelers.

Darqueze Dennard has become consistently productive with the Jury still out on Tyler Boyd, Jake Fisher, Cedric Ogbuehi and John Ross.

Jeremy Hill will be gone from the Bengals and Senquez Golson & Jarvis Jones will no longer be Steelers.

***  To sum up:  Not counting our best talent Tyler Eifert and their 2nd best talent Ryan Shazier because of injury concerns going forward -

The Steelers appear to have 6 reliable starting players made up of 1 Super Star in Le'veon Bell, 3 very good players in Tuitt, Ju Ju Smith Schuster & TJ Watt and 2 other decent starters in Burns & Dupree. (Sean Davis still has something to prove though starting)

The Bengals appear to have 2 reliable starting players in potential stars Jackson III and Mixon.  Darqueze Dennard has become solid in his role as has Gio Bernard. (Boyd, Ross, Cedric & Fisher are yet to obtain the "reliable" label but still have a shot at doing it)

**** I'll admit up front that this list was made quickly, the order or values of the various players may be rearranged, and I may stand corrected on a point or two here or there but the KEY seems to be that the Steelers are getting a better QUANTITY of reliable starting players with their early picks with bigger Star Power to boot. They are Nailing down reliable starters at a much better rate with their early picks.

The Domino Effect for the Bengals are holes and weak links at certain starting positions with hopes remaining pinned on a number of these same players to become reliable or the team suffers. Meanwhile, the Steelers can address other areas while feeling more confident in who they already have with less holes to fill or re-fill.


    

(02-21-2018, 07:59 PM)depthchart Wrote: Players taken by each team in rounds 1 and 2 from 2013 to present (5 Drafts)  - How it impacts each Organization now

In an arguable descending order of talent actually shown on the field  (give or take order by shown on the field so far talent)


            Bengals                                                Steelers
         Tyler Eifert  (TE)                                    Le'Veon Bell  (RB)
     William Jackson III (Corner)                        Ryan Shazier  (LB)
         Joe Mixon  (RB)                                    Stephon Tuitt   (D-end)
         Gio Bernard  (RB)                            Ju Ju Smith Schuster  (WR)
         Jeremy Hill  (RB)                                      TJ Watt  (OLB)
        Darqueze Dennard (Corner)                       Artie Burns  (Corner)
          Tyler Boyd  (WR)                                   Bud Dupree   (LB)
          Jake Fisher  (Tackle)                                 Sean Davis   (Safety)
          Cedric Ogbuehi  (Tackle)                        Senquez Golson   (Corner)
          John Ross  (WR)                                    Jarvis Jones   (LB)

* This order is arguable and I created it quickly so I accept that some players may be switched around but you'll get the General point.

Bengals have taken 3 RB, 2 tackles, 2 corners, 2 wide receivers & 1 tight end in the 1st and 2nd rounds in the last 5 drafts

Steelers have taken 4 linebackers, 2 corners, 1 RB, 1 WR, 1 D-end & 1 safety in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the last 5 drafts

The Steelers landed a Superstar running back in Le'veon Bell with just one pick while we have used 3 picks to have a solid running back group.

Ryan Shazier was becoming a defensive Star before his injury, as was Tyler Eifert on offense who both may now be question marks due to health.

William Jackson III looks like a star player going forward.

Stephon Tuitt, TJ Watt, Ju Ju Smith Schuster, Artie Burns & Bud Dupree have shown solid signs and look to contribute a lot going forward for the Steelers.

Darqueze Dennard has become consistently productive with the Jury still out on Tyler Boyd, Jake Fisher, Cedric Ogbuehi and John Ross.

Jeremy Hill will be gone from the Bengals and Senquez Golson & Jarvis Jones will no longer be Steelers.

***  To sum up:  Not counting our best talent Tyler Eifert and their 2nd best talent Ryan Shazier because of injury concerns going forward -

The Steelers appear to have 6 reliable starting players made up of 1 Super Star in Le'veon Bell, 3 very good players in Tuitt, Ju Ju Smith Schuster & TJ Watt and 2 other decent starters in Burns & Dupree. (Sean Davis still has something to prove though starting)

The Bengals appear to have 2 reliable starting players in potential stars Jackson III and Mixon.  Darqueze Dennard has become solid in his role as has Gio Bernard. (Boyd, Ross, Cedric & Fisher are yet to obtain the "reliable" label but still have a shot at doing it)

**** I'll admit up front that this list was made quickly, the order or values of the various players may be rearranged, and I may stand corrected on a point or two here or there but the KEY seems to be that the Steelers are getting a better QUANTITY of reliable starting players with their early picks with bigger Star Power to boot. They are Nailing down reliable starters at a much better rate with their early picks.

The Domino Effect for the Bengals are holes and weak links at certain starting positions with hopes remaining pinned on a number of these same players to become reliable or the team suffers. Meanwhile, the Steelers can address other areas while feeling more confident in who they already have with less holes to fill or re-fill.


    

It suggests that Steelers have taken more Defensive players while Bengals have drafted more Offensive players.

Artie Burns is complete trash, so I wouldn't say that he has even been serviceable.

It was a reach pick and it hasn't paid dividends, thus far. Just imagine if they had a crappy pass rush; Burns would have his lunch taken all day.

(02-21-2018, 08:42 PM)Derrick Wrote: It suggests that Steelers have taken more Defensive players while Bengals have drafted more Offensive players.

Damn.....they nail some 'backers, don't they?

Disagree... Bernard and Dennard are realiable starters

I don't understand all the love for TJ Watt

I see your point, but I would argue that outside of Bell -- a consensus superstar -- the differences really aren't that significant. Shazier, like Eifert, was a potential top-5 player at his position whose career has been derailed by injuries. Tuitt is an above-average starter, which I think Jackson is/will become. Schuster and Watt, IMO, will both max out as average starters, comparable to Mixon and Dennard. Dupree and Burns are contributors, like Bernard and Fisher (assuming he comes back). The biggest bust of either group currently is Jones, although it will be Ross if he doesn't get healthy ...

In a vacuum, I'd rather have their picks than ours, but take Bell out of the mix and I'm thinking long and hard about it ... Absent Bell, I think our guys have more potential with Jackson, Mixon, and Ross (not giving up on him yet) due to the Shazier injury.

I think the primary reason for the Steelers' success is not because they've drafted particularly well in the last 5 years, but rather because they retain their best drafted players even if it means pushing the limits of the salary cap -- Roethlisberger, Brown, Bell (gonna happen), DeCastro, Pouncey, Heyward, Gilbert. In contrast, we've let some of our best players leave in free agency, citing salary cap concerns -- Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu -- which really caught up to us this past year.

Compounding the issue is that we keep or sign sub-par guys over the better players. E.g., signing Kirkpatrick and relying on the Ogbuehi/Fisher poo-poo platter over Whitworth and Zeitler; inexplicably trying to keep Bodine; replacing Jones and Sanu with LaFell; the list goes on. Steelers seem to make the right personnel decisions more often than not -- Brown over Sanders and Wallace, letter players like Harrison, Timmons, Hood, and Woodley go at the right time ... Seems like all former Steelers suck for their next team, while all our former players do well -- wonder if that's due to coaching or evaluation??

Plus when they hit on a DeCastro type player they retain him opposed to Bengals who kicked Zeitler down the road.

Remember how Zeitler made Marvin and MB look like geniuses when they passed on DeCastro by trading back and getting Zeitler and Sanu out of the deal.

Then their cheapness let the great move leave the team as quickly as they came.

Hard to understand.

(02-21-2018, 08:42 PM)Derrick Wrote: It suggests that Steelers have taken more Defensive players while Bengals have drafted more Offensive players.

(02-22-2018, 10:40 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Artie Burns is complete trash, so I wouldn't say that he has even been serviceable.

It was a reach pick and it hasn't paid dividends, thus far. Just imagine if they had a crappy pass rush; Burns would have his lunch taken all day.

(02-22-2018, 10:48 AM)Clep Wrote: Disagree... Bernard and Dennard are realiable starters

Artie Burns had an 80.8 Pro Football Focus grade in 2017 putting him 44th among all corners in his 2nd year. He is no William Jackson III but has played well enough to start every game in 2017 for the Steelers.

I consider Gio and Dennard to be successful picks for the Bengals with them having roles rather than being starters so to speak. Joe Mixon is the bell cow with Gio getting sprinkled in, although Gio can shine in a starting role when called upon. Dennard, not the so to speak starter over Dre & Jackson III, however, Dennard has done well in his role and can likely step in and do well if injury moves him up the ladder. Probably just semantics here. Gio and Dennard were successful picks.


*** 60% of the Bengals picks have been Offensive skill players. 3 RB, 2 WR and 1 TE  (Eifert was Great yet lost to injury)

      20% of the Steelers picks have been Offensive skill players.  1 RB and 1 WR

(Bell & Ju Ju have been equal to or even more impactful in my mind than Hill/Mixon/Gio/Boyd/Ross using 2 picks to the Bengals 5)


****(Shazier was Great yet likely lost to injury & Golson & Jarvis are gone leaving 5 remaining Steeler picks to the Bengals 4 remaining)

Stephon Tuitt, TJ Watt, Bud Dupree, Artie Burns & Sean Davis - versus- Jackson III, Dennard, Cedric and Fisher  

The Bengals win when comparing Jackson III & Dennard to Burns and Davis.

That leaves Cedric & Fisher who have disappointed until now compared to a revamped front 7 for the Steelers with Stephon Tuitt, TJ Watt & Bud Dupree who get to go up against Cedric & Fisher in games.

(02-22-2018, 11:52 AM)shanebo Wrote: I see your point, but I would argue that outside of Bell -- a consensus superstar -- the differences really aren't that significant.  Shazier, like Eifert, was a potential top-5 player at his position whose career has been derailed by injuries.  Tuitt is an above-average starter, which I think Jackson is/will become.  Schuster and Watt, IMO, will both max out as average starters, comparable to Mixon and Dennard.  Dupree and Burns are contributors, like Bernard and Fisher (assuming he comes back).  The biggest bust of either group currently is Jones, although it will be Ross if he doesn't get healthy ...  

In a vacuum, I'd rather have their picks than ours, but take Bell out of the mix and I'm thinking long and hard about it ... Absent Bell, I think our guys have more potential with Jackson, Mixon, and Ross (not giving up on him yet) due to the Shazier injury.

I think the primary reason for the Steelers' success is not because they've drafted particularly well in the last 5 years, but rather because they retain their best drafted players even if it means pushing the limits of the salary cap -- Roethlisberger, Brown, Bell (gonna happen), DeCastro, Pouncey, Heyward, Gilbert.  In contrast, we've let some of our best players leave in free agency, citing salary cap concerns -- Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu -- which really caught up to us this past year.  

Compounding the issue is that we keep or sign sub-par guys over the better players.  E.g., signing Kirkpatrick and relying on the Ogbuehi/Fisher poo-poo platter over Whitworth and Zeitler; inexplicably trying to keep Bodine; replacing Jones and Sanu with LaFell; the list goes on.  Steelers seem to make the right personnel decisions more often than not -- Brown over Sanders and Wallace, letter players like Harrison, Timmons, Hood, and Woodley go at the right time ... Seems like all former Steelers suck for their next team, while all our former players do well -- wonder if that's due to coaching or evaluation??

(02-22-2018, 12:11 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Plus when they hit on a DeCastro type player they retain him opposed to Bengals who kicked Zeitler down the road.

Remember how Zeitler made Marvin and MB look like geniuses when they passed on DeCastro by trading back and getting Zeitler and Sanu out of the deal.

Then their cheapness let the great move leave the team as quickly as they came.

Hard to understand.

All Great points.

The Bengals have to do MUCH BETTER than the Steelers in Drafts just to have a chance because they are certain to do MUCH WORSE in retaining the solid players they do happen to draft.

When the Steelers are more successful Drafting on the front end PLUS retain better on the back end, then the Bengals are extra screwed.

RBs and WRs are almost always made by the Oline and QB. Bell is a really good back, but I think if you switched our skill positions they would produce relatively the same numbers. Bell would be terrible behind our line because his game is to let the Oline push several yards down field and then hit an opening. Our Oline doesn't push people downfield. Juju would be a nobody if he played for us.

(02-22-2018, 12:34 PM)Sweetness Wrote: RBs and WRs are almost always made by the Oline and QB. Bell is a really good back, but I think if you switched our skill positions they would produce relatively the same numbers. Bell would be terrible behind our line because his game is to let the Oline push several yards down field and then hit an opening. Our Oline doesn't push people downfield. Juju would be a nobody if he played for us.

Valid point about the O-line & QB.

What stands out here to me is the Steelers used 20% of those picks on Bell & Ju Ju while the Bengals used 50% of those picks on Hill/Mixon/Gio/Boyd/Ross.

50% of 5 years worth of 1st and 2nd round Draft picks on RBs & WRs.

(02-22-2018, 11:46 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I don't understand all the love for TJ Watt

I don't either.

I don't understand drafting WRs in rounds 1-3 either, but whatever.
Never have, never will

WRs are a luxury.

(02-22-2018, 12:16 PM)depthchart Wrote: Artie Burns had an 80.8 Pro Football Focus grade in 2017 putting him 44th among all corners in his 2nd year. He is no William Jackson III but has played well enough to start every game in 2017 for the Steelers.

If I may give some advice; as a person who applied and made it to the second round of interviews+"prove it yourself," work (I pulled out, as my life at the time could not devote as much time to the job as I had initially thought) with PFF, was a subscriber from day one until the end of the 2015 season and was haevily involved with charts and number crunching back on the mothership and with others, take these words to be near-gospel:

Don't put any stock or faith in PFF's grades, whatsoever.

They are a heavily subjective service that, now that they're (partially) bankrolled and featured on NBC, skew things from the truth.

Their grades used to have wonderful context: start out at 0 in a handful of categories, differing grade levels for each outcome and performance on a play, end of the game will be above or below 0. Simple. Easy. Objective (to an extent). Add these up throughout the year and you have your cumulative grade. Simple. Easy. Objective (to an extent).

Now, they not only not tell you or DEFINE their grading scheme, but essentially, a player gets __ because he did something during the game. No context. No objectivity; plays seemingly have random weighting and people like Russell Bodine, who actually do something right for the first time ever (albeit in only 2 games that I'm talking about here), still get grades as low or lower than always.

We watch the games as fans; we see exactly what they do; why do these grades make absolutely 0 sense, whereas previously, there was some context and meaning behind them?

Therefore, TL:dr, PFF is a sham, don't take anything they say, grades-wise, with any seriousness.

One area that they were always great, but apparently have removed the past 2 years, are their stats; pressure numbers, drops, missed tackles, etc. Those were gold and highly useful.

(02-22-2018, 11:46 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I don't understand all the love for TJ Watt

Same.

Had a good first game. Fizzled out the rest of the year.

(02-22-2018, 03:35 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: If I may give some advice; as a person who applied and made it to the second round of interviews+"prove it yourself," work (I pulled out, as my life at the time could not devote as much time to the job as I had initially thought) with PFF, was a subscriber from day one until the end of the 2015 season and was haevily involved with charts and number crunching back on the mothership and with others, take these words to be near-gospel:

Don't put any stock or faith in PFF's grades, whatsoever.

They are a heavily subjective service that, now that they're (partially) bankrolled and featured on NBC, skew things from the truth.

Their grades used to have wonderful context: start out at 0 in a handful of categories, differing grade levels for each outcome and performance on a play, end of the game will be above or below 0. Simple. Easy. Objective (to an extent). Add these up throughout the year and you have your cumulative grade. Simple. Easy. Objective (to an extent).

Now, they not only not tell you or DEFINE their grading scheme, but essentially, a player gets __ because he did something during the game. No context. No objectivity; plays seemingly have random weighting and people like Russell Bodine, who actually do something right for the first time ever (albeit in only 2 games that I'm talking about here), still get grades as low or lower than always.

We watch the games as fans; we see exactly what they do; why do these grades make absolutely 0 sense, whereas previously, there was some context and meaning behind them?

Therefore, TL:dr, PFF is a sham, don't take anything they say, grades-wise, with any seriousness.

One area that they were always great, but apparently have removed the past 2 years, are their stats; pressure numbers, drops, missed tackles, etc. Those were gold and highly useful.

I will keep that in mind.

With NBC involved, PFF may get into the Anti-Trump Dossier business next under the code name "Bodine". 

William Jackson is a super star, Dennard will be a pro bowl caliber talent, Gio is a good overall player, Joe will be a superstar caliber player, and also give me Carl Lawson over all their edge players. Outside of OG and Fisher we have done pretty well.

(02-22-2018, 04:33 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: William Jackson is a super star, Dennard will be a pro bowl caliber talent, Gio is a good overall player, Joe will be a superstar caliber player, and   also give me Carl Lawson over all their edge players. Outside of OG and Fisher we have done pretty well.

If we could get either Tyler Boyd or John Ross to step up that would move our needle, as would an OG & Fisher step up.

Ju Ju Smith Schuster put up 917 receiving yards and 7 TDs with 270 return yards and 1 return TD in 2017.

Pretty solid #2 wide receiver numbers out of Ju Ju that we could use on the Bengals.

(02-22-2018, 04:33 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: William Jackson is a super star, Dennard will be a pro bowl caliber talent, Gio is a good overall player, Joe will be a superstar caliber player, and   also give me Carl Lawson over all their edge players. Outside of OG and Fisher we have done pretty well.

This.   And we may get lucky yet with one of them.  I just don't see Og ever panning out.

I have always liked Gio, and I consider both him and Boyd reliable (OK Boyd was borderline in 2017 - but I think he's more what we saw in his first season and the end of the 2nd).  

I think Lawson and Willis will be really strong players for years to come.

And I am crossing my fingers that Billings will wake up and improve after what was in effect his rookie year.

And if Ross overcomes the odds and pans out...

(02-22-2018, 04:42 PM)depthchart Wrote: If we could get either Tyler Boyd or John Ross to step up that would move our needle, as would an OG & Fisher step up.

Ju Ju Smith Schuster put up 917 receiving yards and 7 TDs with 270 return yards and 1 return TD in 2017.

Pretty solid #2 wide receiver numbers out of Ju Ju that we could use on the Bengals.

I have liked Boyd since the day we drafted him. He showed promise his rookie year and all but disappeared last season..... I do think him and Ross are going to be fine this season.