AJ Green should be resigned before the Oakland game.....The Franchise Tag should not even be an option, because it just ticks players and agents off and they want out. The Franchise Tag would be the end of AJ Green in Cincinnati. For the last 4 years he has easily been the Bengals best player, so just resign him. ...and that, is that.

(08-31-2015, 02:41 PM)Stormborn Wrote: I think Julio deserves more than A.J. if we're just talking production.

Here's what his numbers would look like had he played 61 games instead of 48:

354 Catches, 573 Targets, 5,502 Yards, 33 TDs, 37 Drops

Compare these to A.J.'s 61 games:

329 Catches, 580 Targets, 4,874 yards, 35 TDs, 30 Drops

He was nearly completely healthy in his contract year (missed one from a strained oblique, unrelated to his fractured foot in 2013) and increased his mind-numbing yards/game with over 1500 this year.

Now you wanna bring up "who means more to the offense" and even bring in QB play, whatever, but going off actual numbers, Julio's been more productive on a game to game basis, which is what really matters as long as his injuries haven't showed signs of long term effectiveness. He may end up being made of glass, but its a risk you have to take with a player of his caliber

I'm ok with giving A.J. slightly more guaranteed money because he's been healthier and also has been consistent on and off the field, but Julio deserves the higher APY.

Real production or imaginary production?

Even in Fantasy Land where we add pretend numbers to Julio, AJ still has more TD's and less drops.  The difference in imaginary receptions is less than 10%.  One had averaged 1,220 imaginary yards, while the other has managed 1,350 imaginary yards.  Not exactly a significant difference.

Yeah, QB play is probably relevant to passing statistics, such as receiving yards.  That's why Peyton Manning's receivers generally fair better than Alex Smith's.  And, with no offense to Oodles of Noodles, Matt Ryan is a significantly better QB.

AJ is the same caliber of player as Julio.  And he doesn't have the same injury risk.

I don't get why some of you work so hard to discount the accomplishments of such a great player.  Our own fans, who go out of their way to defend a QB that ranked 25th in QB rating last season, seem to equally go out of their way to put AJ's peers in a class above him.  To the point of making up imaginary scenarios, where there is still no significant difference.

AJ is in the same class as these guys.  And he's done it with by far the worst QB of the bunch.  D Thomas has Manning, Jones has Ryan, and Bryant has Romo.  Good luck debating Andy against that.  Why some of you think Jones or Bryant is a better player I have absolutely no clue. 

(08-31-2015, 01:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, I think it's very easy to argue that not only is AJ the safest of these 3 players, but he deserves the contract the most.

Remember, Dez Bryant wasn't that good his first two years.  And as good as Dez has been recently, believe or not, AJ's career high in yards is still better than Dez's career high.  And Dez has ton of character concerns. (See sideline antics, rumored tape beating his mom, etc.)  AJ not only has better numbers, but he's been more stable thus far in his career.

Julio Jones has missed time in 3 of his 4 years.  AJ has more receptions, yards, and TD's.  And we drafted him ahead of Jones, so clearly we scouted him higher.

AJ simply does have the character concerns that Dez does, or the injury history that Jones does.  And he has beter averages than both.  He's been more consistent.

If any team of these 3 teams should feel the most confident about what they're getting in return for a mega deal it should be us. There is no excuse to not want to get this done right now.  And I can all but guarantee that AJ's camp is ultimately looking to paid in line with these caliber of players:

D Bryant - 5 years 70 mil, 45 guaranteed.
J Jones - 5 years 71 mil, 47 mil guaranteed.
D Thomas - 5 years 70 mil, 43 mil guaranteed.

The market is set.  And our own AJ Green, the man who has a fund named after him, is the only one left without a deal.  If he goes into the season that way then that looks bad.  Real bad.  IMO the only hold up could be either us low balling him or wanting to save the coin for this year, which would be a huge slap in the face to AJ.

The numbers are all right there.  We have the money.  I can't even begin to imagine the stress of playing such a violent game, with the potential for 70 mil dollars left up in the air.  And I can't imagine how I would feel if many of peers in my line of work were rewarded before me, when I'm in the same class of an employee and have been more reliable.  Let's just hope our boy AJ gets what he's due and we can finally release a collective sigh of relief that 5 year old money has finally be spent.

Couldn't agree more. We all know the offense is junk without AJ Green.  It's time to pay the man and pay him the money that he has earned. He is an elite WR and if he continues to play at this level could end up as the Bengals best WR in history.

I will never understand why some fans don't think highly of our best player. I can only imagine his production if we had a better QB throwing to him.

(08-31-2015, 02:57 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: So you people think the office isn't trying based on...what exactly?

Trying?  Who said anything about whether they're trying or not?  Trying and doing are two entirely different things.

Get it done.  Simple as that.  The market is set and he's earned it.  Shouldn't be anything more to discuss beyond actually doing it.

Today in Did You Know?:

-Did you know AJ has never had less than 1,000 yards? Julio Jones has had less in 50% of his seasons. (2 of 4)
-Did you know Julio Jones only has ONE season over 1,200 yards? AJ Green has doubled that feat by doing it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones career high in TD's is only 10? AJ Green's is 11. Oh, and he's done it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones has had two seasons under 60 receptions?
-Did you know that Julio Jones has only played a full season once?
-Did you know that despite Jones playing in 15 games last year and AJ missing significant time, that they had the same amount of TD's (6)?
-Did you know AJ has more career yards, receptions, touchdowns?
-Did you know AJ has less drops, despite being targeted over a 100 more times in 4 years?
-Did you know our own scouting departing rated AJ as the better player?
-Did you know that AJ is actually taller than Julio?

But yeah, forget all that. Julio, despite being more injury prone, and less proven definitely deserves more money.

(08-31-2015, 03:10 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Real production or imaginary production?

Even in Fantasy Land where we add pretend numbers to Julio, AJ still has more TD's and less drops.  The difference in imaginary receptions is less than 10%.  One had averaged 1,220 imaginary yards, while the other has managed 1,350 imaginary yards.  Not exactly a significant difference.

Yeah, QB play is probably relevant to passing statistics, such as receiving yards.  That's why Peyton Manning's receivers generally fair better than Alex Smith's.  And, with no offense to Oodles of Noodles, Matt Ryan is a significantly better QB.

AJ is the same caliber of player as Julio.  And he doesn't have the same injury risk.

I don't get why some of you work so hard to discount the accomplishments of such a great player.  Our own fans, who go out of their way to defend a QB that ranked 25th in QB rating last season, seem to equally go out of their way to put AJ's peers in a class above him.  To the point of making up imaginary scenarios, where there is still no significant difference.

AJ is in the same class as these guys.  And he's done it with by far the worst QB of the bunch.  D Thomas has Manning, Jones has Ryan, and Bryant has Romo.  Good luck debating Andy against that.  Why some of you think Jones or Bryant is a better player I have absolutely no clue. 

He averages more yards, catches per game and catches per targets, that's real production.

I'm perfectly fine with A.J. getting 14 M per year, I'm not discrediting him, but I'm allowed to want Julio over him as a WR and value him slightly higher. Slightly.

(08-31-2015, 03:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Today in Did You Know?:

-Did you know AJ has never had less than 1,000 yards?  Julio Jones has had less in 50% of his seasons. (2 of 4)
-Did you know Julio Jones only has ONE season over 1,200 yards?  AJ Green has doubled that feat by doing it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones career high in TD's is only 10?  AJ Green's is 11. Oh, and he's done it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones has had two seasons under 60 receptions?
-Did you know that Julio Jones has only played a full season once?
-Did you know that despite Jones playing in 15 games last year and AJ missing significant time, that they had the same amount of TD's (6)?
-Did you know AJ has more career yards, receptions, touchdowns?
-Did you know AJ has less drops, despite being target over a 100 more times in 4 years?
-Did you know how scouting departing rated AJ as the better player?
-Did you know that AJ is actually taller than Julio?

But yeah, forget all that.  Julio, despite being more injury prone, and less proven definitely deserves more money.  

You could just say A.J. has been on the field more, when on a game to game basis they're a lot more equal and each leads each in different categories.

You're just more worried that Julio will miss more significant time, the Falcons and the rest of everybody apparently doesn't seem to.

(08-31-2015, 03:29 PM)Stormborn Wrote: You're just more worried that Julio will miss more significant time, the Falcons and the rest of everybody apparently doesn't seem to.

To be fair, I'm sure they are plenty worried of their best player becoming injured again. Let's not pretend they picked extending Julio over trading for A.J. or something though (not saying that you're implying this, just a general statement). Whether he's been injured or not, you basically HAVE to extend your best player. I think you or someone else even mentioned that already. They would have given him this extension whether they were worried about future injury or not IMO, they're in the position where they have to.

FWIW, I think Julio has been sliiiiiiiiightly more impressive on gameday, but has done so with a better QB, better coaching, and has had more injuries, so I put A.J. and Julio right on the same page right now, maybe even giving A.J. the nod with all things considered. A.J. actually impressed me more early in his career where Julio looks to be at his best right now, so it'll be interesting to see what they both do this coming season.

Pay the man Mike.

(08-31-2015, 03:39 PM)djs7685 Wrote: To be fair, I'm sure they are plenty worried of their best player becoming injured again. Let's not pretend they picked extending Julio over trading for A.J. or something though (not saying that you're implying this, just a general statement). Whether he's been injured or not, you basically HAVE to extend your best player. I think you or someone else even mentioned that already. They would have given him this extension whether they were worried about future injury or not IMO, they're in the position where they have to.

FWIW, I think Julio has been sliiiiiiiiightly more impressive on gameday, but has done so with a better QB, better coaching, and has had more injuries, so I put A.J. and Julio right on the same page right now, maybe even giving A.J. the nod with all things considered. A.J. actually impressed me more early in his career where Julio looks to be at his best right now, so it'll be interesting to see what they both do this coming season.

Well, they could've let him play out his deal if they were concerned about his fragile-ness, maybe they still are but didn't want to risk signing him after the year, I don't know.
 
Since we're using real stats here, like Toast mentioned, it's weird to compare coaching, QB play, offensive philosophy, the fact that Julio wasn't the #1 when he was drafted, and shared a lot of redzone targets with 2 other great players for a couple years. 

I think that was what the buzz was in the draft, A.J. was ready to go immediately and Julio would take slightly more time but could develop into a better overall player.

Both offenses run through each player, you can argue who is more important to the team right now, all I'm saying is, Julio is worth a little bit more to me based off production. 

(08-31-2015, 03:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Today in Did You Know?:

-Did you know AJ has never had less than 1,000 yards?  Julio Jones has had less in 50% of his seasons. (2 of 4)
-Did you know Julio Jones only has ONE season over 1,200 yards?  AJ Green has doubled that feat by doing it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones career high in TD's is only 10?  AJ Green's is 11. Oh, and he's done it twice.
-Did you know that Julio Jones has had two seasons under 60 receptions?
-Did you know that Julio Jones has only played a full season once?
-Did you know that despite Jones playing in 15 games last year and AJ missing significant time, that they had the same amount of TD's (6)?
-Did you know AJ has more career yards, receptions, touchdowns?
-Did you know AJ has less drops, despite being targeted over a 100 more times in 4 years?
-Did you know our own scouting departing rated AJ as the better player?
-Did you know that AJ is actually taller than Julio?

But yeah, forget all that.  Julio, despite being more injury prone, and less proven definitely deserves more money.  

This is why I think Dez is the closer comparison.

I love AJ, but no player should get a free pass for injury (not playing hurts the team) or for major mistakes. AJ is a great player, but to pretend he is not known for being ferocious breaking up potential picks or ignore his mental mistakes is also not right.

The Bengals can factor in his enormous ability, they have to do so to give him Dez money in my opinion.

(08-31-2015, 01:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Julio's deal is almost identical to Dez's Bryant's though.

Bryant - 5 years  70 mill, with 45 mil of it guaranteed.
Jones - 5 years 71.25 mil, with 47 mil of it guaranteed.

Am I missing something in the details, like incentives or something?

Not sure. The guaranteed I remember being 47 but I thought I saw it was in the 80 million range. You never know with those numbers tho. Could have been the agent's numbers.

(08-31-2015, 04:03 PM)jj22 Wrote: Not sure. The guaranteed I remember being 47 but I thought I saw it was in the 80 million range. You never know with those numbers tho. Could have been the agent's numbers.

The total is about 81 over 6 years, including the option he'll be playing on this year.

(08-31-2015, 05:10 PM)Stormborn Wrote: The total is about 81 over 6 years, including the option he'll be playing on this year.

That makes sense.

AJ will get signed unless he doesn't want to get signed here. I just hope its structured well enough to leave us room to sign guys next year. I am hoping we can get Whit and Smith back for another couple years.

Smith I'm willing to sacrifice. We should at least get Green, or Iloka done. MJ would be nice to get done in case he blows up this season. I also hope Nelson can get done, but I understand like Adam Jones age will play a factor in resigning him. We should either re-sign Green, or at least two of the 4 I just mentioned. No excuses.

(08-31-2015, 06:21 PM)jj22 Wrote: Smith I'm willing to sacrifice. We should at least get Green, or Iloka done. MJ would be nice to get done in case he blows up this season. I also hope Nelson can get done, but I understand like Adam Jones age will play a factor in resigning him. We should either re-sign Green, or at least two of the 4 I just mentioned. No excuses.

We had to go through a lot to get Smith where he is today.  Lets face it the guy is one of the best RT in the league.  You see how much better the line is with him in play and even tho we drafted two guys there is no reason to get rid of him if we can get him for around the same price.  He's going into his prime and personally I would like to see him with us.

I like Smith too, but don't be fooled by his contract year play (he can struggle too at any given moment). And I'd choose Whit over him if we had to keep one. But we can't keep both with drafting back to back tackles. It's easier to find a RT then it is a LT. Dre's a tough negotiation that may not be worth it.

(08-31-2015, 12:58 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He was signed while still playing on a rookie deal.  AJ's rookie contract has already expired.  He's now playing on a 5th year option.  Had we followed the same pattern as with Geno and Andy, AJ would have been signed last season.

Oh, and I don't remember a fund being set aside for Geno.  According to the team, AJ should just have a big mile of money sitting somewhere with his name on it.  I hope they've been earning interest on it.  Afterall, some of it was set aside five years ago.

The option is a part of is rookie deal, so it has not expired

It will get done here in less than two weeks