I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

Probably but we would never have paid them those numbers for those lengths.  

However, if we had paid Whit it probably wouldn't have affected these deals much because it would have been shorter term even if it was high dollars.  Less overlap.  The Zeitler deal would have affected things I'm sure.  But of the two, if the FO HAD to chose one I'd say we would have paid Whit for several reasons over Zeitler.  They value tackles higher, Whit is a better lineman, Whit was the leader of the OLine and a leader in the clubhouse and MB is loyal.  I am sure it was very difficult for MB to let Whit go, but that's the business end of it, and the Piano Man had MB convinced we didn't need Whit due to the two high draft tackles he hand picked.

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

I think it is an excellent question.  And I had no problems with letting the very average Zeitler go for the ridiculous $12 million per year that he got in Cleveland.  Whit was a tough call, but he was 35 years old and wanted a three-year deal?  The real issue wasn't that the Bengals didn't try to be prepared for his departure, but the picks of Ogbuehi and Fisher were giant whiffs.

I wouldn't worry too much about the escalating salaries.  The cap keeps rising each year as well and it has always been a superstar-driven league.  I also think that the league will eventually go to the 18 game regular season and bump the cap even higher with expanded rosters.  

The Bengals have been very smart (and get little to no recognition for it) in their cap-ology by not overpaying contracts with ridiculous back end money for their top tier players that they would have no intention of paying and ultimately lose the player.  The upfront money on Carlos and Geno's contracts gets them the average per year they deserve without bankrupting the cap down the line.  That is why they will be able to sign AJ next year and Dalton the year after that.  

First, rising salaries are not destroying the game. They are ridiculous, but while salaries go up, so does the cap. Basically, it just means everything is more expensive for the fans. Second, Whit was older than dirt, when it comes to O-linemen. Can we get over the decision not to offer him a 3 year stupid deal. They offered him a very good one year deal, which he turned down. Yes, he proved he could still play, but at the time all the odds were against that. Thirdly, what the Factory of Sadness paid Zeitler was insane for what he brought. Yes, he was good, but he was too expensive. The problems the Bengals have do not come from not resigning those players..... they come from not drafting or trading for quality replacements.

Whit was the anomaly in that we historically value tackle. The issue is we had so much draft capitol in tackle that we had to take a chance and see if they could play (They couldn't). We were never going to make Zeitler the highest paid guard in the league and looking back now we made the right choice as his play in Cleveland last year was pretty average.

As for could we have kept them all together? Maybe. The problem is there is a bit of a butterfly effect when you start changing history. What does keeping them do as far as changes to possible drafts after? How does it change the amount of wins we have to move us up and down in the draft? Strictly financially speaking the answer is yes, but I'd guess assuming we had the same guys we drafted they would have let Dunlap go because of how tight we would be getting to the cap and what it would mean for Green next year and Dalton beyond.

Plus, if you look at our o-line the last year Whit and Zeitler were on it, it was still pretty horrendous. People tend to forget that and remember the days of Whit taking on 3 Raiders....

Good question,

Zeitler's contract would have had impact down the line and I'm glad they didn't pay that. I wish they could have signed big Whit to two years and I doubt that would have changed anything now.

I would keep Geno and Carlos as well. Geno is a total game changer, Los is a monster as well.

(08-30-2018, 07:52 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think it is an excellent question.  And I had no problems with letting the very average Zeitler go for the ridiculous $12 million per year that he got in Cleveland.  Whit was a tough call, but he was 35 years old and wanted a three-year deal?  The real issue wasn't that the Bengals didn't try to be prepared for his departure, but the picks of Ogbuehi and Fisher were giant whiffs.


 The upfront money on Carlos and Geno's contracts gets them the average per year they deserve without bankrupting the cap down the line.  That is why they will be able to sign AJ next year and Dalton the year after that.  

Mark this day in message board history. Fredtoast giving SHRacerX rep. Covered every point I was going to make

-Due to his age Whit was a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't type deal.

-Zeitler was overpaid (although he was much better than "very average)

-With so many D-linemen on rookie deals we could sign both Atkins and Dunlap with front loaded deals that don't blow up the cap down the road.

(08-30-2018, 07:47 AM)Stewy Wrote: Probably but we would never have paid them those numbers for those lengths.  

However, if we had paid Whit it probably wouldn't have affected these deals much because it would have been shorter term even if it was high dollars.  Less overlap.  The Zeitler deal would have affected things I'm sure.  But of the two, if the FO HAD to chose one I'd say we would have paid Whit for several reasons over Zeitler.  They value tackles higher, Whit is a better lineman, Whit was the leader of the OLine and a leader in the clubhouse and MB is loyal.  I am sure it was very difficult for MB to let Whit go, but that's the business end of it, and the Piano Man had MB convinced we didn't need Whit due to the two high draft tackles he hand picked.

Whit just restructured his contract with the Rams to help facilitate an Aaron Donald contract. If we had given him what he wanted (and ultimately got from LA), it definitely would have affected these contracts. 

At the least, we would have asked him to restructure like he just did, but this isn't something we typically do... so who knows what would have happened with Atkins and Dunlap.

I think Atkins would have been extended regardless... but maybe not Dunlap/Preston Brown etc.

I may be in the minority (in fact, I know I am) but I have hard feelings against Whit. Cincinnati made him a very rich man with life changing money for his entire family, and he chose to turn down the deal offered to him, to go to another team. He could have had the same legacy Geno and Carlos, and most likely AJ and Dalton will have here. Instead, he went for a longer deal elsewhere and left Andy to run for his life. If the Bengals had not offered him a deal, that would be one thing, but they offered a 1 yr. deal he could have played out and then gotten another.  Screw Whit...

(08-30-2018, 09:50 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I may be in the minority (in fact, I know I am) but I have hard feelings against Whit. Cincinnati made him a very rich man with life changing money for his entire family, and he chose to turn down the deal offered to him, to go to another team. He could have had the same legacy Geno and Carlos, and most likely AJ and Dalton will have here. Instead, he went for a longer deal elsewhere and left Andy to run for his life. If the Bengals had not offered him a deal, that would be one thing, but they offered a 1 yr. deal he could have played out and then gotten another.  Screw Whit...

Andrew Whitworth made Andrew Whitworth a very rich man.  

(08-30-2018, 08:33 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Plus, if you look at our o-line the last year Whit and Zeitler were on it, it was still pretty horrendous. People tend to forget that and remember the days of Whit taking on 3 Raiders....

I'd agree with this but Whit was never a question. He's been playing at an elite level for damn over a decade and should have been signed. That was the one move that the Bengals will regret unless Glenn steps up.

Interesting question. But we still have some dead weight (MJ) to have worked with if needed. I agree with everyone tho Zietler was overrated an he's not even the one we miss. It's Big Whit you have to wonder if we could have fit him in.

BUT it's important to note we took on 11m cap hit for Glenn, which has to count as apart of this offseason spending..... that we wouldn't have needed if Whit was re-signed. So really we are only short about 2 million (I think Whit got paid 13M). I think all three deals could have been done.

Whit would have made similar money to what they are paying Cody Glenn.

The thing about Whit was the time to extend him was at the BEGINNING of the 2016 season but they had just draft two tackles the year before and neither had played a down. We know Ogbuehi struggle in 2016 but by then Whit was able to take offers from other teams and the league has a shortage of good tackles.

My conspiracy theory for a major reason why Whit left is because he could tell how badKen Zampese's offense really was...

(08-30-2018, 10:09 AM)Synric Wrote: My conspiracy theory for a major reason why Whit left is because he could tell how badKen Zampese's offense  really was...

That and the Rams fired Jeff Fisher who had a reputation as "Marvin Lewis West" and were making a push to be more competitive.  Thus far, he made the right choice.  Did he get more money to play for the Rams?  The guy got a better offer to play for a team that was making some big moves and he decided to give it a whirl, so be it.

So far, it's paying off and he's part of a playoff team that had a top-tier offense while we went 7-9 and were dead last.  Thus far, advantage Whit.  What's the guy missing out on here? The chance to be part of a ring of honor that doesn't exist and has what...2 players in 50 years that are held in high regard? One of which took a job with the Steelers to win the SB? Ouch.

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

if we had paid them the deals they received elsewhere..  Cuts or restructures would have had to be made...  Just to get these deals done as is they had to make a few cuts without Z or Big Whit on the books.

(08-30-2018, 10:16 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That and the Rams fired Jeff Fisher who had a reputation as "Marvin Lewis West" and were making a push to be more competitive.  Thus far, he made the right choice.  Did he get more money to play for the Rams?  The guy got a better offer to play for a team that was making some big moves and he decided to give it a whirl, so be it.

So far, it's paying off and he's part of a playoff team that had a top-tier offense while we went 7-9 and were dead last.  Thus far, advantage Whit.  What's the guy missing out on here?  The chance to be part of a ring of honor that doesn't exist and has what...2 players in 50 years that are held in high regard?  One of which took a job with the Steelers to win the SB?  Ouch.

Bengals wanted to reduce his playing time and salary to get the younger OTs up and running and only were offering a 1 year deal..

So whit took the multi year where he was gonna be a starter full time. at least it was my take

(08-30-2018, 10:27 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Bengals wanted to reduce his playing time and salary to get the younger OTs up and running and only were offering a 1 year deal..

So whit took the multi year where he was gonna be a starter full time.  at least it was my take

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up for me.  I spose letting him walk wasn't a problem until we replaced him with crapola granola.

(08-30-2018, 10:29 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up for me.  I spose letting him walk wasn't a problem until we replaced him with crapola granola.

Well yeah.... We drafted a 1st and 2nd round OT back to back you want them boys to play.   But so far it looks like we missed on both potentially at least for their draft status.

But when glenn went out last week Obg didn't look horrible at LT.. Maybe hes starting to turn a corner.  IDK...

I always hope these guys get better while they are still on the roster. And I love whitworth dude was great.... But when you have young guys waiting to go. How long to you keep playing someone who is beyond what the average retirement age is for his position. I know whit stayed in great shape but we all know every year we age things take longer to heal.....

It was a gamble they lost.

The only thing that chaps me about the Whit/Zeitler stuff was that they didn't just tag Whit. If a one year deal was the goal, would a tag not have been ideal?