(12-08-2018, 02:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I fully expect Marvin Lewis to be retained through 2019 with the "injury excuse" being the deciding factor.  I don't think the Front Office "gets it."

I certainly hope that is not the case, but I fear you are correct. 

To give coach Lewis a pass on this season for any reason is to willfully ignore everything prior to this year. 

This is a failed experiment that has been given more than ample time to produce meaningful results beyond a winning season 44% of the time. It reached a certain plateau -- where it failed to ascend any farther -- and has fallen off from there. It seems to me that continuing for another season demonstrates a certain amount of apathy and / or indolence by ownership.

(12-08-2018, 03:12 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I certainly hope that is not the case, but I fear you are correct. 

To give coach Lewis a pass on this season for any reason is to willfully ignore everything prior to this year. 

This is a failed experiment that has been given more than ample time to produce meaningful results beyond a winning season 44% of the time. It reached a certain plateau -- where it failed to ascend any farther -- and has fallen off from there. It seems to me that continuing for another season demonstrates a certain amount of apathy and / or indolence by ownership.

It's their family creed.  It's on their business cards, along with a real big dollar sign.

I kind of wonder if any of you actually spend all day, every day,  365 days a year brooding over the record of the Bengals to the point of suicidal feelings . If so please realize it's just a game played by other people for your entertainment and no other legitimate reason other than maybe providing a few jobs in the community and a bit of tax revenue.. 
It's really not worth getting that upset about, but feel free to stay as pissed off as possible if that's your lifes work..  

We have to hope and pray that we lose out. Sadly, it’s the only way it will even enter Mike’s mind that maybe... just maybe... Marvin isn’t the answer.

And the worse the loss, the better. God forbid we win the final two games of the season and Mike sees “potential” and “hope” with Marvin again beating two teams fighting for a playoff spot played a key role in getting Marvin back last year, and beating San Diego and “being competitive” at Baltimore in 2010 also helped convince Mike that Marv was a competent head coach.

We need to lose and lose bad for the sake of the immediate future.... but eh, who am I kidding? Marvin likely has the privilege to return as many times as he pleases

(12-07-2018, 08:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So which is it?

Obviously it’s both, but only one truly matters. You know this. Teams that are run with championship goals look at regular season wins as a given. You have to win enough to get into the postseason. However, only postseason excellence results in titles. Merely getting there is compulsory to well run organizations. Winning once they get there on a consistent basis on challenging for titles is the ultimate goal.

Do orgs like the Pats and sadly, the Steelers care about Division Titles? No, those are just compulsory steps on the yearly goal of Playoff wins, Super Bowl berths, and titles. The sad thing is I remember right before Kraft took over the Pats. The Bengals and Pats (with Chris Warren) were battling for the league’s worst record. Now the Pats have 5 titles and 30+ Playoff victories since the late 90’s. The Bengals, as you state, have a couple of Division Titles and some Wild Card berths, with a sparkling, historic 0-7 record in the season that truly counts.

At the end of the day, I’m not looking to attack you. However, I find it baffling that you defend mediocrity and lukewarm accomplishments like they’re somehow more noteworthy than they are. The Bengals under Mike Brown have been abominable. Under Marvin, they’ve been the equivalent of a participation trophy. There’s no way to paper over the ineptitude emanating from them. I guess we will just agree to disagree. Peace.

(12-08-2018, 03:26 PM)grampahol Wrote: I kind of wonder if any of you actually spend all day, every day,  365 days a year brooding over the record of the Bengals to the point of suicidal feelings . If so please realize it's just a game played by other people for your entertainment and no other legitimate reason other than maybe providing a few jobs in the community and a bit of tax revenue.. 
It's really not worth getting that upset about, but feel free to stay as pissed off as possible if that's your lifes work..  

If one doesn't find something -- the Bengals in this case -- "worth getting upset about," then why invest any time, emotion or financial support at all? Why be a part of this site? It would seem to logically follow that it's also not worth getting excited about, correct? If it indeed it has that little of a "worth" to someone, then it seems nonsensical to follow it at all. 

Of course, as fans, we obviously each have reasons why we follow the Bengals or not a single one of us would be here. From the most cynical and critical fans to the most optimistic and hopeful fans; we all have an investment in the Bengals of different kinds and levels. Being a fan involves a certain emotional attachment as well. When the team does well or does poorly, it tends to be reflected by degrees of emotional response. 

However, it's not as though being a dedicated fan is somehow all-consuming and encompasses every aspect of one's life. 

(12-08-2018, 03:17 PM)McC Wrote: It's their family creed.  It's on their business cards, along with a real big dollar sign.

Maybe the NFL should go to a system where you get rewarded by the success rate of your team. You can only get a certain percentage by just being there. Divide the revenue sharing so where you finish in the standings depends on how much you get each year. That way the teams would at least have to try to get better instead of getting a welfare check every year.

I know he opens the pocket book up to players sometimes but it seems like he cuts corners in every other department.

(12-08-2018, 04:30 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Maybe the NFL should go to a system where you get rewarded by the success rate of your team. You can only get a certain percentage by just being there. Divide the revenue sharing so where you finish in the standings depends on how much you get each year. That way the teams would at least have to try to get better instead of getting a welfare check every year.

I know he opens the pocket book up to players sometimes but it seems like he cuts corners in every other department.

This would be an excellent idea.  There would be penalties for being a bottom feeder.  It would end the current situation that makes the rest of the league Mike Brown enablers.

(12-07-2018, 06:41 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So you should understand that these are temporary states of mind, yet you just don't seem to be able to grasp where your previous statements are extreme or hyperbolic.

You are the one who is confused.

I am agreeing that these feelings should be temporary.  Godfather was the one who started this thread urging you to "Never forget" and to hold on to the pain.

(12-09-2018, 12:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one who is confused.

I am agreeing that these feelings should be temporary.  Godfather was the one who started this thread urging you to "Never forget" and to hold on to the pain.

It seems you've chosen to surmise his message based predominantly on a couple of key words. If you look at the overall context of what he's saying, the suggestion seems to be -- don't get your hopes up because next year will just be more of the same. 

Of course, I can't speak for him, but this is my interpretation of his post, given that he clearly states:
"Remember this moment and you won't be in traction this time next year because you know its coming."

If that is the case, I don't find it at all unreasonable, even if others would choose a different approach. It's simply the tempering of expectations as to not be disappointed. You may choose a different, much more optimistic mindset and that's fine. However, to condemn and belittle those that don't exactly share that optimism or hopefulness seems to fall dangerously close to the "I'm a better fan that you" category. 

I have no idea whether you intend it to come off like that; I'm just letting you know how it appears to me. 

(12-09-2018, 01:55 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It seems you've chosen to surmise his message based predominantly on a couple of key words. If you look at the overall context of what he's saying, the suggestion seems to be -- don't get your hopes up because next year will just be more of the same. 

Of course, I can't speak for him, but this is my interpretation of his post, give that he clearly states:
"Remember this moment and you won't be in traction this time next year because you know its coming."

If that is the case, I don't find it at all unreasonable, even if others would choose a different approach. It's simply the tempering of expectations as to not be disappointed. You may choose a different, much more optimistic mindset and that's fine. However, to condemn and belittle those that don't exactly share that optimism or hopefulness seems to fall dangerously close to the "I'm a better fan that you" category. 

I have no idea whether you intend it to come off like that; I'm just letting you know how it appears to me. 

You are exactly right, your posts are dead on with the interpretation of my post. It amazes me how many people this time of year are so disappointed with how the team ends up because they thought small changes were enough to get the Bengals over the hump and winning playoff games. If I touch a hot stove and burn myself should I expect a different result if I touch it again later when its just as hot but in a different place?

As for Fred posting on here, it's comical on how hard he tries pushing buttons. He is as predictable going with the boards opposite views to ruffle feathers as the Bengals are under the Lewis/Brown leadership. 

(12-09-2018, 03:01 PM)GodFather Wrote: You are exactly right, your posts are dead on with the interpretation of my post. It amazes me how many people this time of year are so disappointed with how the team ends up because they thought small changes were enough to get the Bengals over the hump and winning playoff games. If I touch a hot stove and burn myself should I expect a different result if I touch it again later when its just as hot but in a different place?

As for Fred posting on here, it's comical on how hard he tries pushing buttons. He is as predictable going with the boards opposite views to ruffle feathers as the Bengals are under the Lewis/Brown leadership. 

The overall context of your original post was rather easy to understand and your mindset is not at all unreasonable given the history of this franchise and the amount of disappointment involved.

I just get a bit frustrated when I see someone parsing out a message in a rather disingenuous fashion in order to line up neatly with the narrative which they choose instead. I've never liked seeing that approach. I'm not familiar enough with the other gentlemen to know his exact nature; I can only go by what I've seen in his style and approach, which I find bothersome and cumbersome to quality discussions.

Personally, I usually have a certain level of hope going into each season, although it is usually tempered by previous experience. For instance, I can hope each season will be the one in which we finally win a playoff game, but history still suggests that is much less probable with the combination of Mr. Brown and coach Lewis here. 

I have no issue at all with those that choose to not get their hopes up and instead take a "wait and see" attitude. There is no one correct approach in how one should be a fan, in my humble opinion. We all take our own route and choose what works best.

(12-08-2018, 04:07 PM)Lucidus Wrote: If one doesn't find something -- the Bengals in this case -- "worth getting upset about," then why invest any time, emotion or financial support at all? Why be a part of this site? It would seem to logically follow that it's also not worth getting excited about, correct? If it indeed it has that little of a "worth" to someone, then it seems nonsensical to follow it at all. 

Of course, as fans, we obviously each have reasons why we follow the Bengals or not a single one of us would be here. From the most cynical and critical fans to the most optimistic and hopeful fans; we all have an investment in the Bengals of different kinds and levels. Being a fan involves a certain emotional attachment as well. When the team does well or does poorly, it tends to be reflected by degrees of emotional response. 

However, it's not as though being a dedicated fan is somehow all-consuming and encompasses every aspect of one's life. 

Ehh.. I do get mildly upset, but nowhere near the level where I want to scream or call people names over it and certainty don't break my personal possessions over this team and DEFINITELY DON'T invest money in this team aside from MAYBE buying something I might have seen on a commercial ,but I probably would have purchased it anyway commercial or not. The few bucks I did spend years ago never got spent again and probably never will again. 
It's still just entertainment and nothing more for me and yes, even when they lose badly I find it amusing and entertaining like watching a Harold Loyde comedy except Loyde always won out in the end. 
If they win, well great, but losing isn't going to change my outlook for my day or life.  My blood pressure might rise a little, but it isn't going to stroke me out and cause a brain hemorrhage or anything. .or at least I damned sure hope not .

(12-09-2018, 03:24 PM)grampahol Wrote: Ehh.. I do get mildly upset, but nowhere near the level where I want to scream or call people names over it and certainty don't break my personal possessions over this team and DEFINITELY DON'T invest money in this team aside from MAYBE buying something I might have seen on a commercial ,but I probably would have purchased it anyway commercial or not. The few bucks I did spend years ago never got spent again and probably never will again. 
It's still just entertainment and nothing more for me and yes, even when they lose badly I find it amusing and entertaining like watching a Harold Loyde comedy except Loyde always won out in the end. 
If they win, well great, but losing isn't going to change my outlook for my day or life.  

I love the Lloyd reference. Greatly underappreciated talent that was overshadowed by the likes of Chaplin and Keaton.

(12-09-2018, 12:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one who is confused.

I am agreeing that these feelings should be temporary.  Godfather was the one who started this thread urging you to "Never forget" and to hold on to the pain.

Yeah, you're definitely confused. The alternative is...not being very smart. 

You choose.

(12-09-2018, 03:29 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I love the Lloyd reference. Greatly underappreciated talent that was overshadowed by the likes of Chaplin and Keaton.

Rename the team to The Cincinnati Earthworm Tractors! 

Woops.. Wrong actor.. That would be Joe E Brown and not Harold Loyde..

You know what..I don't think the overall team is as bad as the past 6 games indicate and don't really think Marvin is as bad a coach as some make him out to be , but. . He just doesn't seem to be able to put together the right mix of players, calls and staff. His time is over or should be and a completely new and different staff brought in if for no other reason than to shake things up and give fans at least some semblance of trying to improve their  chances..
I do think that Marvin probably could have succeeded under different ownership, but we'll never find that out unless MB were to suddenly die and Marvin gets yet another shot..
That's my gut feeling for better or worse.. 

(12-09-2018, 03:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote:  There is no one correct approach in how one should be a fan, in my humble opinion. We all take our own route and choose what works best.

Right, because saying that one group will end up in traction while the other group will be fine is in NO WAY saying one is superior to the other.



Oh, wait, I forgot I was supposed to ignore what he actually said and instead accept some vague "general meaning" from the "overall context" of his post that fits with your perspective.

(12-09-2018, 09:27 PM)grampahol Wrote: I do think that Marvin probably could have succeeded under different ownership, but we'll never find that out unless MB were to suddenly die and Marvin gets yet another shot..

You know it's bad when after 16 years, the fans still can't conclude whether or not the head coach is the problem due to the GM/Owner, vice-versa, or both. 

Also, the reference to the passing of Mike Brown underlines how hopeless the fan base feels as they believe a death has to occur before things can improve.  That could possibly be a poll question.  

Q: If Mike Brown were to pass away, how would you feel about the Bengals chances next season?
1. More hopeful
2. Less hopeful
3. No opinion

(12-09-2018, 01:55 PM)Lucidus Wrote:  However, to condemn and belittle those that don't exactly share that optimism or hopefulness seems to fall dangerously close to the "I'm a better fan that you" category. 

He condemned and belittled my beliefs by suggesting they would cause so much damage that I would be in traction while he would be fine.

But somehow that gets erased by the "overall concept" that you chose to see.