(12-11-2018, 10:00 PM)Joelist Wrote: The real problem comes in when you look at profitability. IIRC you basically have to be the Dallas Cowboys to make real money. Most everyone else is in the 10-15 million per year profit club. Now add in that profit and loss looks at things like signing bonuses differently than the cap - that 60 million signing bonus on the 6 year deals may only be $10 million against the cap but it is 60 million off of P & L. Ever wonder why we backload instead of front load deals and are not so enthusiastic about signing bonuses?

Then there is the fact that the Bengals ownership has no other business interests. This is pretty unusual in the NFL, and I think the only other franchise like this is Green Bay. What it means is the club cannot be run at a loss and as a tax write off like a lot of others can be.

This does not excuse the many flaws of ownership, among which are that for people in a resource constrained environment they do not do a good job of prioriotizing where the money needs to go to increase the profitability of the product - create a better product and revenue can go up. But perhaps it sheds a little light on the sometimes strange behavior of ownership.

I believe looking at profits is deceptive. When you add back in non-cash expenses (i.e. player salary depreciation) NFL teams pocket quite a bit of money. I would rather see a team's cash flow analysis to get a real perspective. Accounting profits are usually smoke and mirrors. Ask any good accountant, "How much money did I make?" and the correct response should be, "How much money do you want to make?"

(12-12-2018, 11:34 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Are the existing contracts guaranteed? Underperforming existing players who have no more or little guaranteed money left on their current contracts ought to have to renegotiate their contracts(ie Burfict, Dre, Glenn). Other teams do this all the time why don't the Bengals?

We could cut ties with Burfict, Dre, and Glenn and have an extra $22.8 million in cap space even after the dead cap hits next year. The Bengals would have to find a better way to spend that money. And that requires front office work that we rarely see

(12-12-2018, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals don't have more than one pick in each of the top 4 rounds. They will only end up costing about $7-8 mill for all picks.
Bengals have also never stated they are reserving more than $5 mill for injuries, however, they do reserve more than most teams (teams typically reserve between $2-5 mill).
So I think it's safe to just expect a total of $13 mill reserved between draft and injuries.

$12 mill seems like a lot for re-signing own FAs, as I think most of their upcoming FAs are expendable. I think it breaks down to whether Dennard stays or goes. I don't want to see Hart, Ogbuehi, Redmond, MJ, or Rey back. I'd be fine with Hopkins (backup-level) and Smith back. I'm indifferent with Fisher and Preston Brown. I don't really care to see Eifert back unless it's under $3 mill. I don't think both Kroft and Uzomah get retained, just one.

I think it also makes sense to release Burfict to free up additional cap. He's not the same player he was even a year ago.

That would make the following positions open for draft/FA (could be filled with existing):
- 5 OL spots (Redmond, Hopkins, Hart, Fisher, Ogbuehi)
- 2 LB spots (Rey, Brown)
- 3 TE spots (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- 1 CB spot (Dennard)
- 1 DL spot (MJ)
- 1 S spot (Wilson)
----------------------
13 spots

EDIT - What I've been thinking is this offseason...
Re-sign:
Andre Smith
Trey Hopkins
CJ Uzomah or Tyler Kroft (I honestly don't see much difference between the two)
Brandon Wilson (depth purposes only, no guarantee he would make roster)
Darqueze Dennard

Release Vontaze Burfict (would save $6.85 mill in cap space 2019 and $8.93 mill in 2020)

Outside FA:
Jared Cook, 2 year deal
KJ Wright, 3 year deal

That would fill up 6 of the 13 spots. Use the draft to get your new stud LB to go next to Wright, OG, TE to groom behind Cook, OT to groom behind Smith, and also DE, DT, S, 1-2 more OL.
The Bengals are projected to get three 6th-round comp picks so that would be 10 total picks.
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/5/21/17374364/bengals-projected-to-net-3-compensatory-picks-2019-nfl-draft

Missing my point. The team will allocate huge amounts to various categories to explain away their lack of acquiring quality free agents. They do it every year. This year will be no different.

(12-13-2018, 01:46 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Missing my point. The team will allocate huge amounts to various categories to explain away their lack of acquiring quality free agents. They do it every year. This year will be no different.

This isn't true. Every year the Bengals spend up to about 6 to 10 mil below the cap they roll that 6 to 10 mil over. This last off season they were the 6th highest spending team.


Does everyone remember last year and last off season how everyone was saying the Jaguars FO is so smart they went out and spent huge money in free agency? That toll comes do this off season they will be 30+ mil over the cap and will have to trade cut and renegotiate with a lot of their players...

(12-13-2018, 01:46 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Missing my point. The team will allocate huge amounts to various categories to explain away their lack of acquiring quality free agents. They do it every year. This year will be no different.

I understood your point, but I'm saying you were exaggerating to try to make your point. They've never stated they were reserving $20 mill for the draft. They've never even said half of that ever. Here's what was mentioned back from the "model model" article regarding draft spending and injuries...

Quote:Throw in an estimated $7 million rookie pool that includes two first-round picks...Plus, the Bengals usually keep a $4 million pad for injuries

https://www.bengals.com/news/model-model-7033688

Their big culprit for reserved cap space has always been around extensions the past few years. And in the past, it made sense because guys like Atkins, Dunlap, a healthy Eifert, a healthy/nonsuspended Burfict, etc were guys who needed extension. And the following guys are expected to hit FA after next year...
AJ Green
Tyler Boyd
Andrew Billings
Clint Boling
Gio Bernard
Christian Westerman
Nick Vigil
William Jackson III (if they don't pick up his option, which they very likely will)

(12-13-2018, 01:59 PM)Synric Wrote: This isn't true. Every year the Bengals spend up to about 6 to 10 mil below the cap they roll that 6 to 10 mil over. This last off season they were the 6th highest spending team.


Does everyone remember last year and last off season how everyone was saying the Jaguars FO is so smart they went out and spent huge money in free agency? That toll comes do this off season they will be 30+ mil over the cap and will have to trade cut and renegotiate with a lot of their players...

Resigning their own players while paying huge amounts of upfront money doesn't translate to being big spenders.                                                 The Jaguars looked to go all out and improve on a team that went to the AFC championship game the previous year. While it hasn't worked oyt at least the ownership tried. 

(12-13-2018, 01:59 PM)Synric Wrote: This isn't true. Every year the Bengals spend up to about 6 to 10 mil below the cap they roll that 6 to 10 mil over. This last off season they were the 6th highest spending team.

The active spending numbers can be a little deceiving because this year, for example, they are also still 10th in unused cap and were just 21st in total money allocated to player expenses (contracts, bonuses, incentives, benefits, etc). 

(12-13-2018, 01:59 PM)Synric Wrote: This isn't true. Every year the Bengals spend up to about 6 to 10 mil below the cap they roll that 6 to 10 mil over. This last off season they were the 6th highest spending team.


Does everyone remember last year and last off season how everyone was saying the Jaguars FO is so smart they went out and spent huge money in free agency? That toll comes do this off season they will be 30+ mil over the cap and will have to trade cut and renegotiate with a lot of their players...

True, but they have more playoff wins than the Bengals do, so....
Most teams go through low points and high points like a roller coaster. The Bengals have kept steady on their plateau.

(12-13-2018, 02:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I understood your point, but I'm saying you were exaggerating to try to make your point. They've never stated they were reserving $20 mill for the draft. They've never even said half of that ever. Here's what was mentioned back from the "model model" article regarding draft spending and injuries...
https://www.bengals.com/news/model-model-7033688

Their big culprit for reserved cap space has always been around extensions the past few years. And in the past, it made sense because guys like Atkins, Dunlap, a healthy Eifert, a healthy/nonsuspended Burfict, etc were guys who needed extension. And the following guys are expected to hit FA after next year...
AJ Green
Tyler Boyd
Andrew Billings
Clint Boling
Gio Bernard
Christian Westerman
Nick Vigil
William Jackson III (if they don't pick up his option, which they very likely will)

I did exaggerate some numbers, but mostly because the Bengals haven't said anything about the numbers for next year yet and the team will likely be drafting in the top 7 this year, which does translate to a higher rookie pool. I don't know how much though as no one has said.

You are correct about the extensions. Probably just add more to those and take some off the rookie pool, but my final number for money available for outside free agents isn't that far off.

Extending AJ Green should be #1 priority, then Boyd and Boling. They should also exercise Jackson's option. He may be having a down year, but the talent is there.

How much will be left after that? No much, depending on how the contracts are structured. Bernard's replacement is already on the team in Watson I believe. Not saying that I agree Watson should replace Bernard, but I can see it coming.

(12-13-2018, 03:57 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I did exaggerate some numbers, but mostly because the Bengals haven't said anything about the numbers for next year yet and the team will likely be drafting in the top 7 this year, which does translate to a higher rookie pool. I don't know how much though as no one has said.

You are correct about the extensions. Probably just add more to those and take some off the rookie pool, but my final number for money available for outside free agents isn't that far off.

Extending AJ Green should be #1 priority, then Boyd and Boling. They should also exercise Jackson's option. He may be having a down year, but the talent is there.

How much will be left after that? No much, depending on how the contracts are structured. Bernard's replacement is already on the team in Watson I believe. Not saying that I agree Watson should replace Bernard, but I can see it coming.

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but I think honestly Boyd needs to be priority number 1, not AJ Green. And the reason I think that is because I think this team is on the verge of a rebuild and it doesn't make sense to have a 31-year-old AJ Green for that. Tyler Boyd is six years younger than Green.

(12-13-2018, 05:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but I think honestly Boyd needs to be priority number 1, not AJ Green. And the reason I think that is because I think this team is on the verge of a rebuild and it doesn't make sense to have a 31-year-old AJ Green for that. Tyler Boyd is six years younger than Green.

I don't think you are that far off. http://www.walterfootball.com has the Bengals drafting WR A.J. Brown, citing the need to look for A.J. Green's replacement.

(12-11-2018, 08:28 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

NFL Salary Cap projection of $190 million sounds good, until considering each team gets an NFL distribution check of over $250 million before they turn the lights on. #NFL

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt) December 11, 2018

...and that's why Mike Brown doesn't give two shits about what the fans think. 

Every team gets the same bonus and has the same cap you cant put this on the owner of our team cause every team is in the exact same boat.

(12-13-2018, 08:53 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Every team gets the same bonus and has the same cap you cant put this on the owner of our team cause every team is in the exact same boat.

Different teams have a completely different approach when it comes to the salary cap. The Bengals choose to stay away from FAs until they have signed their own FAs. So they don't have a chance to sign top tier FAs. Up front money guarantees the team is in the same position every year and leaves Mikey with his yearly profit. His scheme is smart for someone who cares about the bottom line but leaves little chance for a Super bowl win

(12-13-2018, 05:49 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: I don't think you are that far off. http://www.walterfootball.com has the Bengals drafting WR A.J. Brown, citing the need to look for A.J. Green's replacement.

I would actually disagree with Walt on this because I think the Bengals can wait at least a year before drafting another 1st round WR, they have far too many other needs right now than doing a year-ahead-of-time replacement. But when AJ Green does leave/retire, a WR can be selected high at that point. 

(12-13-2018, 11:12 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Different teams have a completely different approach when it comes to the salary cap. The Bengals choose to stay away from FAs until they have signed their own FAs. So they don't have a chance to sign top tier FAs. Up front money guarantees the team is in the same position every year and leaves Mikey with his yearly profit. His scheme is smart for someone who cares about the bottom line but leaves little chance for a Super bowl win

Math 101 for this guy. 190 mil cap and we get 250 mil from the TV guys. That is 60 mil in the pocket of every owner not just Mike ok is that clear enough for you? 

(12-14-2018, 12:39 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Math 101 for this guy. 190 mil cap and we get 250 mil from the TV guys. That is 60 mil in the pocket of every owner not just Mike ok is that clear enough for you? 

That 190 mil is the players cap. It doesnt include the coaches scouts PR people writers like hobspin etc...

Also I'm not sure how it was all divided and I know they bought in to the team a lot more since Paul passed but Mike had 2 brothers one passed in the 80s (?) and Pete Brown passed last year I'm sure their families receive a share.

Now that I think about it I bet Mike gets a paycheck as the GM as well as Katie and Troy I wonder how much that is...

(12-14-2018, 12:58 PM)Synric Wrote: That 190 mil is the players cap. It doesnt include the coaches scouts PR people writers like hobspin etc...

Also I'm not sure how it was all divided and I know they bought in to the team a lot more since Paul passed but Mike had 2 brothers one passed in the 80s (?) and Pete Brown passed last year I'm sure their families receive a share.

Now that I think about it I bet Mike gets a paycheck as the GM as well as Katie and Troy I wonder how much that is...

I am sure its enough for the Lambo's they are driving to the stadium. 

(12-13-2018, 05:49 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: I don't think you are that far off. http://www.walterfootball.com has the Bengals drafting WR A.J. Brown, citing the need to look for A.J. Green's replacement.

It would be amazing if we just keep avoiding addressing the offensive line or LB.

(12-14-2018, 12:39 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Math 101 for this guy. 190 mil cap and we get 250 mil from the TV guys. That is 60 mil in the pocket of every owner not just Mike ok is that clear enough for you? 

Do you even read before you comment? Its much more profit for a owner who spends little on front office and scouting. There are reports on Mikey making players use used jock straps and limiting how much Gatorade someone had. My comment was on how money is spent not how much.

(12-14-2018, 04:23 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Do you even read before you comment? Its much more profit for a owner who spends little on front office and scouting. There are reports on Mikey making players use used jock straps and limiting how much Gatorade someone had. My comment was on how money is spent not how much.

Used jock straps that is from the 1990's you are really reaching to make a point. Someone said Mike having 60mil profit was why he can not worry about winning and I responded to that. So maybe you should read every post and not just the last few before you comment.

My point was if every team gets 60 mil profit then nobody has to worry about winning but you all point the finger at Mike like he is the only owner in the NFL that makes a profit. All these lil thing you guys are posting comes up to a few mil tops not a big chunk out of the profit. 

But this is what will ring true like it or not this team will be controlled by the Brown/Blackburn family till you and I are in the grave and way beyond. But keep beating that dead horse cause nothing you will say is going to change that.