Year in, year out the roster under goes change with draft and free agents. Obviously the core players remain.
but its really even in the best of times the results are the same. 1st RD playoff exit for whatever reason.

but look the AFC teams that have gone to the Super Bowl in the last 15 years....Pats Steelers Colts etc
very strong traditions.
now look at the Bengals since Lewis took over. handful of North titles. thats it.

so when the Bengals draft a player or sign a free agent.....WHATS THE SELLING POINT?
yes the Bengals draft some great talents....most players they draft are still in the NFL going back 5 years I think.

but these players they draft. Do they have that extra something to really change the culture or are they just talented
yes but when it comes time to get to the next level......they fold.
the free agents they sign. are they just happy to extend their career and thats that?
yeah they wanna start and play well but their drive to change the landscape is non existant.

when a player from USC or Texas Tech (example only) goes to the Pats or Steelers..they have a tradition to uphold.
wheres that in Cincy for a 21 year old DB from Western Michigan to embrace?

Ive seen alot players wear the Stripes. I just dont know how many were really ready to try to take this team to the next level.

You nailed it: Toxic Organizational Culture.

It's not the players fault though. Culture of any company is set by upper management. Look how many players from Carson Palmer to Carl Pickens to Corey Dillon wanted out because they realized management was the issue. We have guys from Georgia (a bunch), Alabama, Florida, Ohio State, etc...winning programs here.

What determines culture? Oh...well it's hard to preach accountability to the players when you have a GM who hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years and a coach that's 0-7 in the playoffs. Or when your team melts down in a playoff game in epic fashion and you keep the coach, the LB, AND re-sign the Cornerback.

Or how do you say you're doing everything you can to win, and then also say that you can't sign free agents because it impacts compensatory picks?

I could go on and on and on. But keeping an 0-7 coach in the playoffs pretty much sets the bar really low. And bad culture infects the organization from practice to gameday.

I mean, our biggest change for a coaching change for an 0-7 coach in the playoffs coming off of 2 losing seasons is IF HE DECIDES TO LEAVE ON HIS OWN.

What other NFL Team would let a coach get 7 cracks at a playoff win without winning 1. Heck Andy Reid made NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl and he was unemployed.

(12-29-2018, 12:55 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Ive seen alot players wear the Stripes. I just dont know how many were really ready to try to take this team to the next level.

I am not sure I understand your point.

Are you are claiming that every single player we draft or sign just doesn't care about winning?

I find that hard to believe.

It all starts and ends with the toxic Mike Brown.

(12-29-2018, 01:26 AM)BengalChris Wrote: It all starts and ends with the toxic Mike Brown.

Yep !

MB does nothing to build the brand, zero, zilch. He does nothing to form a winning tradition, to build a culture. 

(12-29-2018, 01:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not sure I understand your point.

Are you are claiming that every single player we draft or sign just doesn't care about winning?

I find that hard to believe.

I think players do care about winning. but when a (Im.just throwing names out there for conversation sake)
John Ross gets drafted or a Carlos Dunlap...when they 1st come to Cincy at PBS...whats the impression they get?
"welcome to Cincy.....27 seasons without a playoff win.......but here enjoy a Gold Star or a bag of Grippos chips
as we tour the place with Marvin Lewis"

now when a player gets here we know this for a fact......hes acheived a life long dream.hes in the big leagues.
he will be paid more money than hes ever seen before.

but what we dont know is......does that player have that drive to rewrite Bengal history in his own way. ?
is he ready to do all he can to elevate this franchise to a level rarely seen in 30 years.

Look at Patrick Mahomes. hes on the verge of getting the Cheifs to a place not experienced by a Cheifs fan 
since Len Dawson. 

(12-29-2018, 01:46 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I think players do care about winning. but when a (Im.just throwing names out there for conversation sake)
John Ross gets drafted or a Carlos Dunlap...when they 1st come to Cincy at PBS...whats the impression they get?
"welcome to Cincy.....27 seasons without a playoff win.......but here enjoy a Gold Star or a bag of Grippos chips
as we tour the place with Marvin Lewis"

now when a player gets here we know this for a fact......hes acheived a life long dream.hes in the big leagues.
he will be paid more money than hes ever seen before.

but what we dont know is......does that player have that drive to rewrite Bengal history in his own way. ?
is he ready to do all he can to elevate this franchise to a level rarely seen in 30 years.

Look at Patrick Mahomes. hes on the verge of getting the Cheifs to a place not experienced by a Cheifs fan 
since Len Dawson. 

I am still not getting your point.

Are you saying Mahomes is great just because he wants it more than any Bengal?  You do realize that the Chiefs have only won one playoff game in the last 25 years, right?  So it has nothing to do with tradition.

What does a draftee have to embrace?

You ever seen that damned skyline when you come around that hill on 75 in Kentucky? And speaking of Skyline... That place is sorta tastey. The greatest O lineman to walk the the planet played in Cincinnati. The Modelo commercials don't lie. I suppose Bootsy Collins is just some guy that makes noise on a four stringed instrument. I hear there's a carousel down on the Riverfront now. I've seen some good shows at the Southgate Revival House. If the rookie has little kids, Fiona the hippo will be a big hit. You can just feel the presence of Aaron Pryor and Ezzard Charles in Cincinnati... Why these guys don't play like champs is beyond me.

What do you mean this team doesn't have any traditions to uphold?

The Bengals have a rich tradition of coming up short when it counts.

Our owner is an underachiever and is neither progressive nor willing to compete with top teams.

He knows his place, and this team matters most for personal revenue and his family.

He will not take risks from season to season on investments.

Playing it safe with dollars and the warm comfort of "the friend zone" with his associates.

Being in his 80s he'll never change his ways. 

Only making moves and changes when it's well past due.  Not being proactive(which would be perceived as knee jerk if failure by some)but necessary to risk for improvement.

It all starts and ends with Brown.  Marvin is only an appendage or result of MB's ways. 

By choice might I add because he could always walk away.  Lord knows he's had chances.

Some people might not feel this way, but Brown dumb lucked into getting Marvin, who does what he wants and closely resembles HC material.

That makes ol' Mikey really happy.  That's why I'd be shocked if Marvin got fired.  He's exactly what he wants. 

Of course he'd like more wins and asses in seats but it's a small price compared to his comfy situation with Merv and possibly soon to be Hue.

If he can keep a compliant coach that will accept the way he wants his team's approach then he's one happy camper.

The motto "Don't Rock The Boat" is most certainly affixed directly above his office door.

That is what is hindering this franchise.

I'm sorry but it has to be more sinister than Mike is just bad at football. The level of failure is just way too high for that. The man graduated from Dartmouth and got a law degree from frigging Harvard. Idiots don't do either of those things.

I don’t know. Seems the players in Cleveland have embraced that football team’s culture. They don’t have more to offer than Cincinnati.

(12-29-2018, 12:38 PM)McC Wrote: I'm sorry but it has to be more sinister than Mike is just bad at football.  The level of failure is just way too high for that.  The man graduated from Dartmouth and got a law degree from frigging Harvard.  Idiots don't do either of those things.

Yeah he is not an idiot.

He just has priorities and risk assessments that other owners do not.

It just so happens we route for a team that is run by him unfortunately.

I think the overall point the OP is trying to make, is when a player becomes a Bengal, it doesn't become their persona and therefore they just don't have that live and die for the team mentality. When a player gets drafted by a team with a winning tradition like the Steelers, Pats, Cowboys, etc. they internalize the team as part of who they are and winning/losing becomes very personal and just might provide that extra little drive players need to become champions. I'll add the the Bengals aren't the only team in the league with this problem, the Lions and Cardinals probably fall into this category too.

Big problem for team, but not only problem.

(12-29-2018, 01:13 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I think the overall point the OP is trying to make, is when a player becomes a Bengal, it doesn't become their persona and therefore they just don't have that live and die for the team mentality. When a player gets drafted by a team with a winning tradition like the Steelers, Pats, Cowboys, etc. they internalize the team as part of who they are and winning/losing becomes very personal and just might provide that extra little drive players need to become champions.  I'll add the the Bengals aren't the only team in the league with this problem, the Lions and Cardinals probably fall into this category too.

Big problem for team, but not only problem.

Well this and risk of losing your position on the depth chart or job for that matter is a lot lower compared to NFL standards.

Inner competition also breeds drive for players on a team.

Yes this team has let guys go like BJGE and a few other.

He didn't even play football let alone start anywhere after leaving this team.

That wouldn't be the first time either that something like that has happened.

This thread speaks to why adding 1 or 2 quality players won't really matter. The culture needs changed.

The sad thing is the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns now are closer to winning playoff games than us.

(12-29-2018, 02:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This thread speaks to why adding 1 or 2 quality players won't really matter. The culture needs changed.

The sad thing is the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns now are closer to winning playoff games than us.

I'm not sure the Browns are, despite your obvious love for them.  Did they even beat anybody with a winning record?

(12-29-2018, 02:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This thread speaks to why adding 1 or 2 quality players won't really matter. The culture needs changed.

The sad thing is the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns now are closer to winning playoff games than us.

Once Ben retires, which will be soon, the Steelers might flounder until they find his replacement. Dobbs did not look good earlier this year. We’ll see on Rudolph.

(12-29-2018, 01:13 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I think the overall point the OP is trying to make, is when a player becomes a Bengal, it doesn't become their persona and therefore they just don't have that live and die for the team mentality. When a player gets drafted by a team with a winning tradition like the Steelers, Pats, Cowboys, etc. they internalize the team as part of who they are and winning/losing becomes very personal and just might provide that extra little drive players need to become champions.  I'll add the the Bengals aren't the only team in the league with this problem, the Lions and Cardinals probably fall into this category too.

Big problem for team, but not only problem.

Well said. It doesn't take long for a player to feel like he landed in a bad situation. The atmosphere in the locker room will help develop a negative opinion.