(12-30-2018, 03:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: They're both "effective" tools. One is not really demonstrably better than the other. 

But they are different ways of handling displeasure...which is kinda the point.

(12-30-2018, 03:33 PM)Beaker Wrote: I am going to assume that you realize you are the one who controls how you respond to any situation. Nowhere have I said that you should not be emotionally invested in your team. But even (most) toddlers eventually learn not to throw tantrums. 

A negative, even at its strongest, response isn't just a tantrum. That's extreme and/or closed-minded thinking.

(12-30-2018, 03:44 PM)Beaker Wrote: You are entitled to your beliefs. I have found otherwise in my life. You cannot deny fans reactions have an effect on the team. There's a reason why some places are hard for visiting teams to play. The fans have a positive belief that the team will make a 4th down play or comeback to win the game. In turn, the team feeds off that. The fans were not the only reason the team was successful, there were thousands of others. But the fans contributed to the success. Turn it around and fans with the "here we go again" mentality and responses during a game also contribute to doubt and belief creeping into the players psyche also.

Again, I dont think you need to accept the losing and bad decisions, but I think there are other ways to go about it than consistent whining.

Sure I can. Provide some examples of teams that turned it around based on fan attitude. 

And as rfaulk pointed out, the Bengals FO and players aren't sitting around reading thebengalsboard.com. Nor is the consistent "whining" of our posters being heard at PBS. You nor I have any impact on the games whatsoever, unless you are going to PBS and leading a chorus of boo's. Even then, the impact is minimal...unless you truly believe players are that mentally fragile, which I definitely don't. 

(12-30-2018, 03:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: By putting pressure on ownership to change, in a real, meaningful, results-based way.

Again, what owner takes it upon themselves to change when support is still positive, while a team's performance is sub-par?

What owner goes balls out to build a winner when their fan base won't fill the stadium even when there's a winner on the field?

If one thing has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt it's that Mike Brown does not respond to negative reinforcement from the fan base.  We can bust out the Bag Heads and boycott again and again, but it's not going to work.  For us to continue down that path trying to enact change is just as bone headed as Mike refusing to hire a GM or fire Marvin.  Some people need the stick in order to perform, but others need the carrot.

(12-30-2018, 04:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: What owner goes balls out to build a winner when their fan base won't fill the stadium even when there's a winner on the field?

If one thing has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt it's that Mike Brown does not respond to negative reinforcement from the fan base.  We can bust out the Bag Heads and boycott again and again, but it's not going to work.  For us to continue down that path trying to enact change is just as bone headed as Mike refusing to hire a GM or fire Marvin.  Some people need the stick in order to perform, but others need the carrot.

Mikey had his carrot back when PBS sold out for 57 straight games or whatever it was.

What exactly did he change? Neither the carrot nor the stick work with someone whose stubbornness is legendary.

Mike does what he wants to do regardless of what fans say/do/think. Revenue sharing helps him maintain his stubbornness.

(12-30-2018, 02:57 PM)Beaker Wrote: You cant blame them for the losses, but you can blame them for adding to the overall toxicity surrounding the franchise. You cannot deny that fans are an integral part of any sports franchise. So as fans, we have the choice of whether to be vitriolic and negative or not. And my question stands, what good does being negative do? its rhetorical...negativity only hinders, it does not help in any way.


Yes it is. You have the power to control your own feelings and actions. Always blaming someone else is simply a way to avoid personal responsibility for your actions.


It's even more ridiculous to think that the fans have no part in the culture of a team.

I guess you didn't read the part I wrote about the Reds.

I did take matters/actions/feelings in my own hands.

I stopped traveling, spending money, and eventually became apathetic to the point where my fandom ceased to exist.

That toxicity created by the franchise resulted in a lost supporter of the team.

So I'd like to still be a fan of the Bengals but they make it really difficult.

Understand now?


Just like you and your theories which sound condescending by the way.

If you do not wish to hear fans displeasure in this team(whining)you can remove yourself from reading posts.

To some this place can be an outlet and theraputic of sorts.

Do you not agree with medical studies that venting and showing displeasure can be healthy instead of smiling and taking the full load of negative thoughts?

I'm not going to lie about my feelings.

Being apathetic about the situation is more my style.

I'm just not ready to be there yet.

I think it's comical that the Bengals are the only thing in my life I find myself being negative about.

My everyday life is quite positive and that's the way I treat everything else.

I'm just suckered into this vacuum of a team that only has my loyalty because of it being my team from youth.

The Reds were the same way but I let that go.

That's where I fear my fandom is going because of such incompetence being shown to field a SB team.

Pretty sad that some hope Mike Brown's passing will bring hope for the future.

Even more sad are those who don't even think it will matter.

(12-30-2018, 03:47 PM)Beaker Wrote: First you say they are not mutually exclusive...which they are. You can not support a team with your dollars without constant b!tching. Then you say I am trying to meld them. I am not. I am saying they are separate....but not the only...ways to handle your displeasure.

Re-read post 72.

(12-30-2018, 03:25 PM)Beaker Wrote: Can you tell when your wife is upset with you even if she isnt yelling at you? Isnt her silence and disconnect sometimes a more powerful motivator for you to change than her b!tching at you? Can't her silent disappointment sometimes be a more powerful motivator for you to change your behavior, especially when she witholds her currency (sex)?

Its not always vocal negativity that effects change. And too much of it is toxic for any relationship.

If there is so much vocal negativity in a relationship, it's usually because someone is doing something wrong way too often. If that's the case, you better change in a meaningful way--or you could just be Mike Brown and reap the "benefits" of what you've sown. 

(12-30-2018, 03:10 PM)Beaker Wrote: It wont. And your venting didnt help make the experience any more enjoyable for you or anyone else.

The difference between us is you have accepted rooting for a losing team while I have not. Unhappy losers> happy losers. I don't care that you choose to be a pathetic loser who wouldn't say crap even if he had a mouthful. Why do you crow so loudly about fans who would?

(12-30-2018, 03:49 PM)Beaker Wrote: But they are different ways of handling displeasure...which is kinda the point.

Who would dispute that there are different ways of handling displeasure?

You are focusing on complaints, saying it's causing an "overall toxicity" and calling peoples reactions "tantrums", strongly implying that your way (being positive) is a better way to handle it. 

It's all opinion, man. If you don't want to complain, don't. If other choose to, who are you to try and get them to stop? 

Unless i'm mistaken, you're claiming that fan's negative reactions are causing an "overall toxicity" and keeping the team from performing to their highest capability. That's insane. 

If that's not your claim, and the negativity has no effect on the on-field product, what the hell is the point?

(12-30-2018, 03:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sure I can. Provide some examples of teams that turned it around based on fan attitude. 

The whole idea that the fans are a part of it, and not the sole cause of it was apparently lost on you.

(12-30-2018, 04:45 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You are focusing on complaints, saying it's causing an "overall toxicity" and calling peoples reactions "tantrums", strongly implying that your way (being positive) is a better way to handle it. 

Never said fans were causing it. We established there is an overall toxic culture around this team. I contend that negative fans are contributing to that....not the sole cause of it. get the difference? And I am not implying, I am flat out saying that handling your displeasure a different way than simple vocal whining would help to reduce....not eliminate....some of the toxicity. Can you deny that? We can only control what we can control. And what we can control is our response to the displeasure.

(12-30-2018, 04:41 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The difference between us is you have accepted rooting for a losing team while I have not. Unhappy losers> happy losers. I don't care that you choose to be a pathetic loser who wouldn't say crap even if he had a mouthful. Why do you crow so loudly about fans who would?

Nope. Not even close. I am not happy about the direction of this team. But I also know that simply b!tching about it solves nothing and contributes to the overall negativity surrounding the team.

(12-30-2018, 04:11 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I guess you didn't read the part I wrote about the Reds.

I did take matters/actions/feelings in my own hands.

I stopped traveling, spending money, and eventually became apathetic to the point where my fandom ceased to exist.

That toxicity created by the franchise resulted in a lost supporter of the team.

So I'd like to still be a fan of the Bengals but they make it really difficult.

Understand now?


Just like you and your theories which sound condescending by the way.

If you do not wish to hear fans displeasure in this team(whining)you can remove yourself from reading posts.

To some this place can be an outlet and theraputic of sorts.

Do you not agree with medical studies that venting and showing displeasure can be healthy instead of smiling and taking the full load of negative thoughts?

I'm not going to lie about my feelings.

Being apathetic about the situation is more my style.

I'm just not ready to be there yet.

If I sound condescending its because I have repeatedly stated that you dont have to be happy about it, or take it. But the point was made by the OP that there is a toxicity currently surrounding this team. I said fan negativity is contributing to that, which I find hard for anyone to dispute. You said being apathetic is your style. My style is to look for solutions to the problem at hand. Therefore, if the problem at hand is toxicity, and fans contribute to that with negativity, doesn't the solution seem to be to reduce fan negativity as a method of response to the displeasure we all feel with the direction of the team? 

I hate the direction the team has taken, but I refuse to be part of the toxicity by constantly whining about the same things incessantly that we have zero control over. All that whining does is contribute to the overall negative feelings. 

(12-30-2018, 05:05 PM)Beaker Wrote: Never said fans were causing it. We established there is an overall toxic culture around this team. I contend that negative fans are contributing to that....not the sole cause of it. get the difference? And I am not implying, I am flat out saying that handling your displeasure a different way than simple vocal whining would help to reduce....not eliminate....some of the toxicity. Can you deny that? We can only control what we can control. And what we can control is our response to the displeasure.

Your way is not the only way and it's not better than someone else's way. It's your opinion. 

You may view me as someone who complains and must live, at least somewhat, miserably because of the way i react to the Bengals. If not you, it's certainly been stated by many on this board, of myself and others, who complain about the team.

Fact of the matter is, i'm 52 years old and my most recent blood work from my checkup shows that there is not one single thing i can do to noticeably improve my health. Literally. Triglycerides, LDL, overall cholesterol, blood pressure, resting heart rate, etc.etc.etc. Everything that they test falls in the middle of the accepted range for that test. I have no diseases, i haven't been sick in any way in at least 2 years, i go to the gym 3 times a week for 2 hrs each time. All of my bills are paid, up to date, i have a decent amount of money in the bank and a large amount of credit available. The wife and i each have a reliable car and a nice roof over our head along with all the amenities i need, directv, computers, laptops, phone, etc. etc. We get along great and rarely argue and when we do, we resolve it pretty quickly. Even though i lost one son 5 years ago, i still have one who lives in a house, has his own car, a college degree and a good job in the field of his degree and spends plenty of time with us. I have a large family on both my and my wife's side that we visit with on different occasions, holidays, birthdays, reunions, etc. I have a secure job that i love and am paid well for and i get along with everyone i work with. I'd claim that the reason i'm as healthy as i am is because i have very little stress in my life. When something bothers me i let it out, i don't try to force another emotion on it to compensate (that's not to say everyone does that. some people are naturally positive no matter the situation).  

All of that to say; don't judge people by what you see online and don't try to tell people your way is better. People that complain, even regularly and loudly, don't necessarily live miserable, empty lives. In my case, it's the opposite. 

I have to work pretty hard to find anything to complain about in my personal life. It just so happens that, the sports teams i root for give me plenty to complain about and since it does nothing to effect my personal life, i have no problem expressing those complaints.

(12-30-2018, 03:01 PM)Beaker Wrote: Are the fans part of a team's overall culture? Yes. Can fans choose not to be part of the problem? Yes. Does consistent negativity help anything? No.

Stop trying to justify the negativity. You don't have to enjoy the losing, but you don't have to contribute to the negativity of it either.

Well, judging by the stadium attendance I'd say plenty of fans are choosing to not be part of the equation.  But that can be spun as being negative because they aren't going to games, supporting the team, and what not.

But this is all based around the idea that fans being positive about the Bengals would convince Mike Brown to change his MO, which is even less likely that Mike Brown changing his MO because fans are being negative and not showing up.

(12-30-2018, 05:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: Nope. Not even close. I am not happy about the direction of this team. But I also know that simply b!tching about it solves nothing and contributes to the overall negativity surrounding the team.

So I would like to know what you do to overcome your frustration with the team? I bet you just stick your fingers in your ears and repeat NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA. I prefer my way to yours if you don't mind.

(12-30-2018, 05:05 PM)Beaker Wrote: Never said fans were causing it. We established there is an overall toxic culture around this team. I contend that negative fans are contributing to that....not the sole cause of it. get the difference? And I am not implying, I am flat out saying that handling your displeasure a different way than simple vocal whining would help to reduce....not eliminate....some of the toxicity. Can you deny that? We can only control what we can control. And what we can control is our response to the displeasure.

So if we agree that fans are a part of the toxicity of the team.

1)  Wouldn't you say it's the majority of fans?

2)  Why would that be?  Surely not a vast majority of people gravitated to a team that were negative to begin with?

You could lie to these answers or wriggle around them.

I do have an honest answer though.

The team is a vacuum, and all of those have been sucked into it's negativity. 

Some were negative to begin with.  Some were poisoned by it.

It's when those fans turn apathetic when it becomes a "you problem, not a me problem" because they no longer care.

Which is the biggest shame and much worse than complaining for the team itself and it's players.


Thoughts?

(12-30-2018, 05:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, judging by the stadium attendance I'd say plenty of fans are choosing to not be part of the equation.  But that can be spun as being negative because they aren't going to games, supporting the team, and what not.

But this is all based around the idea that fans being positive about the Bengals would convince Mike Brown to change his MO, which is even less likely that Mike Brown changing his MO because fans are being negative and not showing up.

Yeah. How does it make any sense that a fan can not financially support a team, go to games, buy merchandise...yet that's not negative but voicing your opinion on the interwebz is?

(12-30-2018, 05:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: Nope. Not even close. I am not happy about the direction of this team. But I also know that simply b!tching about it solves nothing and contributes to the overall negativity surrounding the team.

You do realize how miserable every other fanbase is, right?  I live in Steeler country and every time they lose 2 in a row people call into the sports shows and claim that Tomlin only has his job because the Rooney family won't fire a black HC, and blah blah blah.  Eagles fans are the most vile people on earth who have spent almost all of the past 40 years flipping off their team.  Hell, if any NFL fanbase had their wish there would probably be 30 new QBs every season.

I could go on.  If anything, Bengals fans are pretty mellow because things just haven't changed much in these parts.