(01-01-2019, 07:11 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When Ross was drafted I objected loudly. I kept being told that Ross could run the full route tree, repeatedly. I've yet to see it out of him.



Tyreke Hill would do Tyreke Hill things if he were in Cinci. Doesn't mean that Ross can do those things. If he could do those things he'd do those things. I really cannot imagine that Marvin Lewis would have intentionally kept Ross down.

Bengals coaches didn't even dare put him (Rossss) at returning punts or kickoffs.

(01-01-2019, 05:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: John Ross was never going to excel against press coverage or jump balls. There's also nothing he can do about his catch radius.
He was 5'11", 188 lbs, and didn't have elite leaping ability (37.0 inch vert) at the Combine.
What he has is elite agility and speed.
A player can be improperly utilized if he's, for example, a shorter, smaller WR but having to win 50-50 balls. To better utilize a guy like John Ross, you need to have a QB who can hit him in stride deep downfield (neither Dalton nor Driskell can do) and/or throw him the ball in much shorter routes to increase his touches and take advantage of his elite speed and agility after-the-catch.

Here are some stats that I think should help explain why he was being underutilized...
According to www.playerprofiler.com, here's the "catchable percentage" for Ross, Boyd, and Green:

Ross - 56.6% (30 of 53 targets)
Boyd - 80.6% (87 of 108 targets)
Green - 77.9% (60 of 77 targets)

Target accuracy when throwing to the same three players (1-4 scale, >=3.0 is considered highly accurate throws, <=2.0 considered highly errant throws):
Ross - 2.2
Boyd - 2.8
Green 2.8

Average target distance for the same three players:
Ross - 14.5 yards (16th highest in league)
Boyd - 9.9 yards (71st highest in league)
Green - 13.6 yards (25th highest in league)

Drops:
Ross - 6
Boyd - 5
Green - 6

So Ross was being thrown deep routes often and only slightly above half of his targets were deemed "catchable."
He had the same number of drops as AJ Green and only one more than Boyd.
The QBs were much more errant on their throws to Ross than they were to Boyd and Green.

Look, I get it that many people felt that 9 was too high for Ross and they expect a player selected in the Top 10 to be nearly flawless in every aspect. But the Bengals picked where they picked, two WRs were taken before Ross, and they likely didn't feel they could risk taking him later or be able to trade back and still get him (they clearly wanted him). He's not as elite of a prospect as Green was overall, but Green was the first WR taken and was considered one of the best WRs to come into the league in the past decade. What is elite for Ross is his speed and agility, and he's not being used properly to take advantage of that elite trait. He also doesn't have a QB who can throw the ball deep accurately when he is being sent on those deep routes.

I really hope this post helps people understand. If people still can't understand the problem after I've done posts like this, they never will understand.

All the reasons why he should have never been picked where he was picked. Guy needs all sorts of things around him to be a successful WR. I want a guy who just goes out there and does it, without all the extra "needs to haves".

People weren't looking for a flawless player at #9. They were looking for an impact player. Ross was Mike Brown's pick and it was a whiff for the top 10.

(01-01-2019, 07:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All the reasons why he should have never been picked where he was picked. Guy needs all sorts of things around him to be a successful WR. I want a guy who just goes out there and does it, without all the extra "needs to haves".

People weren't looking for a flawless player at #9. They were looking for an impact player. Ross was Mike Brown's pick and it was a whiff for the top 10.

Supposedly, Tobin wanted Ross and Marvin wanted Reuben Foster, and Mike broke the tie and went with Ross.  I'd say the Bengals got the better end of that deal.

(01-01-2019, 07:11 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When Ross was drafted I objected loudly. I kept being told that Ross could run the full route tree, repeatedly. I've yet to see it out of him.



Tyreke Hill would do Tyreke Hill things if he were in Cinci. Doesn't mean that Ross can do those things. If he could do those things he'd do those things. I really cannot imagine that Marvin Lewis would have intentionally kept Ross down.

Yeah but shouldnt we see if he can do those things. He has been hurt and we have one of the most predictable , uninspired playcallers i have ever witnessed. Having Lazor should count as intentionally keeping Ross down.

(01-01-2019, 07:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All the reasons why he should have never been picked where he was picked. Guy needs all sorts of things around him to be a successful WR. I want a guy who just goes out there and does it, without all the extra "needs to haves".

People weren't looking for a flawless player at #9. They were looking for an impact player. Ross was Mike Brown's pick and it was a whiff for the top 10.

He just needs someone to accurately throw him the deep ball.

Dude would have double digit TDs if that were the case.

(01-01-2019, 07:36 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: He just needs someone to accurately throw him the deep ball.

Dude would have double digit TDs if that were the case.

If you truly think that is a problem here, it is another reason why he should not have been drafted here. AJ Green seems to do well in this situation. Maybe more receivers like him would be a better fit. Not sure any QB gets the time for a deep ball behind this line, but if he is quitting on routes, a fly or a 9 will likely be ones he would quit on. Ross is just not as good as his draft position. 

Go check out WR Harry from Arizona St. now there’s a wideout I’d go for. He’s huge n has tremendous balls skills. And superior run after catch ability. Not sure what his 40 time is gonna be but he might be a first rounder after everything settles down n more people watch tape of him. I don’t want a WR in round 1 but I wouldn’t mind this guy in round 2. I’m not expecting anything out of Ross next year.

(01-01-2019, 07:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All the reasons why he should have never been picked where he was picked. Guy needs all sorts of things around him to be a successful WR. I want a guy who just goes out there and does it, without all the extra "needs to haves".

People weren't looking for a flawless player at #9. They were looking for an impact player. Ross was Mike Brown's pick and it was a whiff for the top 10.

Should Ross have been selected inside the Top 10? Probably not. But no one knows when he would have gone if he didn't get selected at 9 and the Bengals picked where they were slotted. He was projected by a majority of pundits in the 10-20 range. Practically everyone had him as a first rounder. The guy has talent. You make it sound like he shouldn't have even been taken until Day 3 of the draft. I said it back leading up to the draft that at best, Ross is a faster Antonio Brown (production wise, not diva), at worst he's John Brown (3rd round pick 2014). If Ross doesn't hit 600+ yards by the end of his 4th year (I would say 3rd but his rookie year was practically a redshirt), I'll consider him a bust.

And for the record, I wanted OJ Howard the most. I felt that in arguably the strongest TE class in a LONG time, he was considered the one with the most elite potential, and we knew of Eifert's health risks even back then. He would have gotten a lot of playing time the past two years if he was been drafted as a Bengal given Eifert's injury woes.

(01-01-2019, 07:32 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Yeah but shouldnt we see if he can do those things. He has been hurt and we have one of the most predictable , uninspired playcallers i have ever witnessed. Having Lazor should count as intentionally keeping Ross down.

And remember too, Ross's original OC was Ken Zampese. Zampese wanted to push the ball downfield despite having an OL that couldn't give the QB even 3 seconds to throw.

(01-01-2019, 03:49 PM)McC Wrote: I'm just gonna say it right now.  When the Bengals have a new coach, a young offensive mind, next year, Ross will make fools of a lot of keyboard experts and none of them will admit to being wrong.

Well, Ross will never get a better opportunity next year and so t is really up to him. Make the big leap forward or he will be cut.

(01-01-2019, 08:32 PM)Destro Wrote: If you truly think that is a problem here, it is another reason why he should not have been drafted here. AJ Green seems to do well in this situation. Maybe more receivers like him would be a better fit. Not sure any QB gets the time for a deep ball behind this line, but if he is quitting on routes, a fly or a 9 will likely be ones he would quit on. Ross is just not as good as his draft position. 

Bigger receivers have always been good for guys who throw high and/or under throw deep balls because both require height/leaping ability and sticky hands. But most of those guys are slower and therefore you don’t really stretch the field much. More of a chains-moving offense.


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(01-01-2019, 08:32 PM)Destro Wrote: If you truly think that is a problem here, it is another reason why he should not have been drafted here. AJ Green seems to do well in this situation. Maybe more receivers like him would be a better fit. Not sure any QB gets the time for a deep ball behind this line, but if he is quitting on routes, a fly or a 9 will likely be ones he would quit on. Ross is just not as good as his draft position. 

That IS a problem here, since the Bengals only completed 4 vertical route passes with the outside receivers (2 of which were caught by Ross).

Besides the Carolina route (which was a bad pass) can you tell me when Ross gave up on routes?

Be that is it may, it still takes time for players.

Look at Corey Davis. Nothing great his first season.

John Ross started 11 total games, Corey Davis started 9 his first season.
Corey Davis only had 165 more yards than Ross with 13 more catches. But also had no TDs. Ross has 7.

Took him until year two after actually getting playing time to improve. Same with Nelson Agholor. Same with Tyler Boyd (granted Boyd's first season was good, second season was dreadful)

(01-01-2019, 03:49 PM)McC Wrote: I'm just gonna say it right now.  When the Bengals have a new coach, a young offensive mind, next year, Ross will make fools of a lot of keyboard experts and none of them will admit to being wrong.

I agree,

I believe this years coaching staff did little to help Ross, scheme him open and build his confidence.

(01-01-2019, 05:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: John Ross was never going to excel against press coverage or jump balls. There's also nothing he can do about his catch radius.
He was 5'11", 188 lbs, and didn't have elite leaping ability (37.0 inch vert) at the Combine.
What he has is elite agility and speed.
A player can be improperly utilized if he's, for example, a shorter, smaller WR but having to win 50-50 balls. To better utilize a guy like John Ross, you need to have a QB who can hit him in stride deep downfield (neither Dalton nor Driskell can do) and/or throw him the ball in much shorter routes to increase his touches and take advantage of his elite speed and agility after-the-catch.

Here are some stats that I think should help explain why he was being underutilized...
According to www.playerprofiler.com, here's the "catchable percentage" for Ross, Boyd, and Green:

Ross - 56.6% (30 of 53 targets)
Boyd - 80.6% (87 of 108 targets)
Green - 77.9% (60 of 77 targets)

Target accuracy when throwing to the same three players (1-4 scale, >=3.0 is considered highly accurate throws, <=2.0 considered highly errant throws):
Ross - 2.2
Boyd - 2.8
Green 2.8

Average target distance for the same three players:
Ross - 14.5 yards (16th highest in league)
Boyd - 9.9 yards (71st highest in league)
Green - 13.6 yards (25th highest in league)

Drops:
Ross - 6
Boyd - 5
Green - 6

Is there a possibility that the Target Accuracy rating is lower for Ross, because he's not where the QB expects him to be?  With Boyd and Green, the TA is identical, and the oddity is with Ross.  This is just a guess on my part, as I have heard much about NFL passing plays being designed to have the ball thrown to a spot, rather than where the man physically is.

(01-01-2019, 05:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: John Ross was never going to excel against press coverage or jump balls. There's also nothing he can do about his catch radius.
He was 5'11", 188 lbs, and didn't have elite leaping ability (37.0 inch vert) at the Combine.
What he has is elite agility and speed.
A player can be improperly utilized if he's, for example, a shorter, smaller WR but having to win 50-50 balls. To better utilize a guy like John Ross, you need to have a QB who can hit him in stride deep downfield (neither Dalton nor Driskell can do) and/or throw him the ball in much shorter routes to increase his touches and take advantage of his elite speed and agility after-the-catch.

Here are some stats that I think should help explain why he was being underutilized...
According to www.playerprofiler.com, here's the "catchable percentage" for Ross, Boyd, and Green:

Ross - 56.6% (30 of 53 targets)
Boyd - 80.6% (87 of 108 targets)
Green - 77.9% (60 of 77 targets)

Target accuracy when throwing to the same three players (1-4 scale, >=3.0 is considered highly accurate throws, <=2.0 considered highly errant throws):
Ross - 2.2
Boyd - 2.8
Green 2.8

Average target distance for the same three players:
Ross - 14.5 yards (16th highest in league)
Boyd - 9.9 yards (71st highest in league)
Green - 13.6 yards (25th highest in league)

Drops:
Ross - 6
Boyd - 5
Green - 6

So Ross was being thrown deep routes often and only slightly above half of his targets were deemed "catchable."
He had the same number of drops as AJ Green and only one more than Boyd.
The QBs were much more errant on their throws to Ross than they were to Boyd and Green.

Look, I get it that many people felt that 9 was too high for Ross and they expect a player selected in the Top 10 to be nearly flawless in every aspect. But the Bengals picked where they picked, two WRs were taken before Ross, and they likely didn't feel they could risk taking him later or be able to trade back and still get him (they clearly wanted him). He's not as elite of a prospect as Green was overall, but Green was the first WR taken and was considered one of the best WRs to come into the league in the past decade. What is elite for Ross is his speed and agility, and he's not being used properly to take advantage of that elite trait. He also doesn't have a QB who can throw the ball deep accurately when he is being sent on those deep routes.

I really hope this post helps people understand. If people still can't understand the problem after I've done posts like this, they never will understand.

He did not have the same number of drops. That is disingenuous. He had HALF the catches, so scaled up he has TWICE the amount of drops. 

Ross is not that good but we need him to be next year.  I wouldn't say he is a total bust. He is just considered a bust because mb is an idiot and drafted him in the top 10.

Like some have said already he doesnt cost that much and he did score 7 tds... 

(01-01-2019, 09:06 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Well, Ross will never get a better opportunity next year and so t is really up to him. Make the big leap forward or he will be cut.

Nobody is going to cut a WR with 7 TD's unless they're a locker room cancer or insanely overpaid.  

What's ironic is Ross was what everyone was hyping Auden Tate up to be, a red zone TD machine.

(01-01-2019, 09:53 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: He did not have the same number of drops. That is disingenuous. He had HALF the catches, so scaled up he has TWICE the amount of drops. 

Ross is not that good but we need him to be next year.  I wouldn't say he is a total bust. He is just considered a bust because mb is an idiot and drafted him in the top 10.

Like some have said already he doesnt cost that much and he did score 7 tds... 

No, what I stated about drops is true. He had the same number of drops as Green. You are talking about drop RATE, which is different.


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Ross has been on the team long enough to have blossomed into a top ten draft pick, if he was indeed worth being one. Claiming it takes players time is an excuse and not one that applies to a top ten pick, plain and simple. Plucking a few names of players that improved over time does not mean Ross gets better. A professional football player should not be having the drops he does. If you can't shake that by now, you likely will not.

Ross is a top 10 pick but we need a new HC and OC and o-line and possibly QB before we can judge him fairly.

(01-01-2019, 07:32 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Yeah but shouldnt we see if he can do those things. He has been hurt and we have one of the most predictable , uninspired playcallers i have ever witnessed. Having Lazor should count as intentionally keeping Ross down.

AJ Green and Tyler Boyd don't seem to have a problem.

As much as I want Lazor gone, Ross has had quite a few opportunities. His catch percentage is worse in the NFL. AJ Green and Boyd's are much better. Same QBs.