(01-06-2019, 12:03 AM)Destro Wrote: 5th in yards. They were still a losing team and couldn't turn the ball over. He came here and never won a playoff game. Doesn't take a great defensive mind to get that team to win. That was a Madden video game defense. Unreal. 

 Clap, giggle and let's go chants won't do in this world. While some think highly of Marvin, the league knows what he is about and the game has passed him by in the NFL and just being around greatness doesn't make you great. Just like they have finally figured out about Jeff Fisher.

I live in the Redskins market and get plenty of exposure to the franchise.

It was common knowledge at the time (and since) that Marvin was the reason Steve Spurrier's team was 7-9 and not a hell of a lot worse.

(01-05-2019, 07:07 PM)HuDey Wrote: I’m betting Marvin resurfaces employed in some capacity by the Cincinnati Bengals.

Special assistant to new head coach hue.

(01-05-2019, 07:16 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: not surprising, veteran coaches tend to be look at second or take a year before they come back into play if they choose. Some take a year off to let things clear through.. 

That might be true, but it also might be true that his options as a HC are nil. Only time will tell.

Although I'd think if his services were in demand, we'd hear something about him turning down requests.

(01-05-2019, 09:27 PM)Destro Wrote: Lewis was DC for a great defense of Hall of Famers. That caused him to be over hyped. Remember he went to Washington after leaving Baltimore, and wasn't impressive there.

Actually, he was pretty good in DC, but the embarrassment of talent also continued there, with Bruce Smith, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, Jeremiah Trotter, LaVar Arrington, Daryl Gardener, etc. 

(01-06-2019, 12:29 AM)chopperbobby Wrote: Special assistant to new head coach hue.

Who will make Marv his "head coach in waiting"

(01-06-2019, 12:27 AM)jfkbengals Wrote: I live in the Redskins market and get plenty of exposure to the franchise.

It was common knowledge at the time (and since) that Marvin was the reason Steve Spurrier's team was 7-9 and not a hell of a lot worse.

I do, too, and no it wasn't because of Lewis, by anyone who actually knew the team, and they were better the year before. Lewis gets credit where credit is not due. He rain made everyone and it worked. What is former Ravens DC Rex Ryan up to right now?

(01-06-2019, 01:02 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Who will make Marv his "head coach in waiting"

Vicious cycle.

(01-06-2019, 12:39 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That might be true, but it also might be true that his options as a HC are nil. Only time will tell.

Although I'd think if his services were in demand, we'd hear something about him turning down requests.


Actually, he was pretty good in DC, but the embarrassment of talent also continued there, with Bruce Smith, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, Jeremiah Trotter, LaVar Arrington, Daryl Gardener, etc. 

Yeah... But I can't think of a coach that ever had success coaching a bunch of scrubs.... Maybe Mike Fratello in the mud 90's with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

(01-06-2019, 11:23 AM)jason Wrote: Yeah... But I can't think of a coach that ever had success coaching a bunch of scrubs.... Maybe Mike Fratello in the mud 90's with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Well there's a difference between normal talent and the type of talent I listed. That 2002 Redskins team had:

Bruce Smith - Hall of Famer
Champ Bailey - Future Hall of Famer and 12 time Pro Bowler
Darrell Green - Hall of Famer

Jesse Armstead - 5x Pro Bowler
Jeremiah Trotter - 4x Pro Bowler
LaVar Arrington - 3x Pro Bowler

On top of solid guys like Fred Smoot, Daryl Gardener, Sam Shade, etc. Normal top 5 defenses usually have some solid players. Not 3 Hall of Famers and 3 more multi-time Pro Bowlers. Hence why I said embarrassment of talent.

(01-06-2019, 11:23 AM)jason Wrote: Yeah... But I can't think of a coach that ever had success coaching a bunch of scrubs.... Maybe Mike Fratello in the mud 90's with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Btw, Mark Price and Brad Daugherty were great players. Unless you're talking about that '98 team with Kemp, Ilgauskas, Wesley Person and Derek Anderson. Still, that was a solid lineup too.

(01-05-2019, 09:27 PM)Destro Wrote: Lewis was DC for a great defense of Hall of Famers. That caused him to be over hyped. Remember he went to Washington after leaving Baltimore, and wasn't impressive there.

REALLY?? This the which came first debate, chicken or the egg. So sparky gets no credit as a coach since he had some of the greatest players, sure great solid players make the team great but good coaches mold and scheme their talents to make a team great. Also egos tend to come with great players. And can ruin that Chemistry,  good coaches can control those egos. You cant take the success away that lewis had at Baltimore . 
As for Washington he was there 1 year and was 5th in yards allowed, previous year they were 10th, 25th the 2003 the year after he left...so i guess all the great players left with him lol. 

(01-06-2019, 12:03 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: REALLY?? This the which came first debate, chicken or the egg. So sparky gets no credit as a coach since he had some of the greatest players, sure great solid players make the team great but good coaches mold and scheme their talents to make a team great. Also egos tend to come with great players. And can ruin that Chemistry,  good coaches can control those egos. You cant take the success away that lewis had at Baltimore . 
As for Washington he was there 1 year and was 5th in yards allowed, previous year they were 10th, 25th the 2003 the year after he left...so i guess all the great players left with him lol. 

The Skins were 21st in points allowed under Marvin in 2002...so that 2001 defense was actually better (10th in yards, 13th in points), if we're being objective.

And are we seriously going to act like having a legendary group of talent doesn't matter? 

I'm not saying he should get NO credit, but c'mon now. Coaching Ray Lewis, Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Rob Burnett, Chris McAllister, Tony Siragusa, Duana Starks, Mike McCrary, Peter Boulware....then Bruce Smith, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, LaVar Arrington, Jeremiah Trotter and Jesse Armstead had to make Marvin's job a LOT easier. 

(01-05-2019, 09:27 PM)Destro Wrote: Lewis was DC for a great defense of Hall of Famers. That caused him to be over hyped. Remember he went to Washington after leaving Baltimore, and wasn't impressive there.

Redskins had the #5 defense in the league the year Marv was their DC.

(01-06-2019, 12:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Skins were 21st in points allowed under Marvin in 2002...so that 2001 defense was actually better (10th in yards, 13th in points), if we're being objective.

And are we seriously going to act like having a legendary group of talent doesn't matter? 

I'm not saying he should get NO credit, but c'mon now. Coaching Ray Lewis, Rod Woodson, Sam Adams, Rob Burnett, Chris McAllister, Tony Siragusa, Duana Starks, Mike McCrary, Peter Boulware....then Bruce Smith, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, LaVar Arrington, Jeremiah Trotter and Jesse Armstead had to make Marvin's job a LOT easier. 

meh, if we're being objective we's use the stat that the NFL does to rank defenses and that's total yards. The year after Marvin left Washington they fell to 25th in total defense with that same star-studded D. Baltimore when from 2nd to 22nd

And are we seriously going to act like having a legendary DC doesn't matter? 

(01-06-2019, 01:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: meh, if we're being objective we's use the stat that the NFL does to rank defenses and that's total yards. The year after Marvin left Washington they fell to 25th in total defense with that same star-studded D.

And are we seriously going to act like having a legendary DC doesn't matter? 

Meh, usually objective folk don't mind looking at additional facts to come to a reasonable conclusion. If I put up a natonwide poll asking NFL fans if they'd rather have the defense that ranked 10th in yards and 13th in points allowed, or the one that ranked 5th in yards and 21st in points allowed, the majority is going to take the former. Unless they have some kind of agenda, like defending a coach they like. Ahem.

As for why the Skins fell off the following year, they lost Darrell Green, Daryl Gardener and Sam Shade. Plus Bruce Smith finally fell off. To the point where he didn't even start half the games, and posted roughly half the stats of the previous year.

(01-06-2019, 01:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Meh, usually objective folk don't mind looking at additional facts to come to a reasonable conclusion. If I put up a natonwide poll asking NFL fans if they'd rather have the defense that ranked 10th in yards and 13th in points allowed, or the one that ranked 5th in yards and 21st in points allowed, the majority is going to take the former. Unless they have some kind of agenda, like defending a coach they like. Ahem.

As for why the Skins fell off the following year, they lost Darrell Green, Daryl Gardener and Sam Shade. Plus Bruce Smith finally fell off. To the point where he didn't even start half the games. 

Ask whoever you want fans are fans; however, there's a very good reason the NFL doesn't use points allowed to rank Defenses. Of course someone will introduce anything they can find negative if they are trying to discredit someone because they don't like him. Ahem

When you point out that Bruce Smith "finally fell off" so him being on the team doesn't count, yet point to the huge loses of Darrel Green (who hadn't started over 4 games in 3 years), Sam Shade who never played another snap in the NFL and only started 3 games in his only year with Marvin, and a dude who only played in 5 more NFL games after he left DC as the reason for falling off. Then you might not be as objective as you think you are. 

(01-06-2019, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Ask whoever you want fans are fans; however, there's a very good reason the NFL doesn't use points allowed to rank Defenses. Of course someone will introduce anything they can find negative if they are trying to discredit someone because they don't like him. Ahem

When you point out that Bruce Smith "finally fell off" so him being on the team doesn't count, yet point to the huge loses of Darrel Green (who hadn't started over 4 games in 3 years), Sam Shade who never played another snap in the NFL and only started 3 games in his only year with Marvin, and a dude who only played in 5 more NFL games after he left DC as the reason for falling off. Then you might not be as objective as you think you are. 

Didn't say Bruce Smith "didn't count", but his contribution (16 starts, 9 sacks, 49 tackles) in 2002 fell off big time in 2003 (8 starts, 5 sacks, 22 tackles). Darrell Green only started 4 games, but having a HOF'er as your nickel is a pretty nice luxury, no? Daryl Gardener was a big time player for a 4 year stretch that included that 2002 Skins team. Don't know what happened after that (age, injury?) but that doesn't change the fact that he was a big time player in 2002 and they lost that production in 2003. 

Sam Shade I'll give you. Not the same player in 2002. They did also lose Dan Wilkinson (who I didn't mention) in 2003. Even though he had his worst statistical season under Marvin, having "Big Daddy" in the middle certainly helped. So the d-line went from Bruce Smith/Wilkinson/Gardener in 2002 to a fading Bruce Smith in 2003. 

And say whatever you want about ranking defenses by yards, but if you're really going to judge a defense, there's more to it. That's like judging QB's solely on passing yards. Fun fact: The 2000 Ravens weren't the best defense that year by that stat. Does anyone remember who #1 is?

(01-06-2019, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Didn't say Bruce Smith "didn't count", but his contribution (16 starts, 9 sacks, 49 tackles) in 2002 fell off big time in 2003 (8 starts, 5 sacks, 22 tackles). Darrell Green only started 4 games, but having a HOF'er as your nickel is a pretty nice luxury, no? Daryl Gardener was a big time player for a 4 year stretch that included that 2002 Skins team. Don't know what happened after that (age, injury?) but that doesn't change the fact that he was a big time player in 2002 and they lost that production in 2003. 

Sam Shade I'll give you. Not the same player in 2002. They did also lose Dan Wilkinson (who I didn't mention) in 2003. Even though he had his worst statistical season under Marvin, having "Big Daddy" in the middle certainly helped. So the d-line went from Bruce Smith/Wilkinson/Gardener in 2002 to a fading Bruce Smith in 2003. 

And say whatever you want about ranking defenses by yards, but if you're really going to judge a defense, there's more to it. That's like judging QB's solely on passing yards. Fun fact: The 2000 Ravens weren't the best defense that year by that stat. Does anyone remember who #1 is?

Sure, just roll with "I'm looking at it objectively". 

(01-06-2019, 11:46 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Btw, Mark Price and Brad Daugherty were great players. Unless you're talking about that '98 team with Kemp, Ilgauskas, Wesley Person and Derek Anderson. Still, that was a solid lineup too.

No... The one in between those two. Tyrone Hill, Hot Rod Williams, Bobby Sura, Bobby Phils... They made the playoffs, but they would literally walk the ball up the court to shorten the game, and limit possessions.

(01-06-2019, 02:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure, just roll with "I'm looking at it objectively". 

Sure, just roll with "the 2000 Titans were better than the 2000 Ravens" and "losing Darrell Green, Dan Wilkinson, Daryl Gardener and essentially Bruce Smith meant nothing".

EDIT: Found out that it was injury and a spat with the HC that did Gardener in. He signed a massive (for the time) 7 year, $35 million contract with the Broncos based on what he did in Miami and Washington:

https://milehighsports.com/the-worst-free-agents-in-broncos-history/

(01-06-2019, 02:29 PM)jason Wrote: No... The one in between those two. Tyrone Hill, Hot Rod Williams, Bobby Sura, Bobby Phils... They made the playoffs, but they would literally walk the ball up the court to shorten the game, and limit possessions.

Ah, forgot about that crew. I guess that can be forgiven, considering the names.

Fratello was a good coach.