The Bengals are well known for having Hobspin tell us every offseason that they won't make very many big moves because the successful teams only build through the draft....well that logic has always been flawed but look no further than who is still in the playoffs as an example.

Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Ndamukong Suh, John Sulliven, Aqib Talib, Brandin Cooks, Dante Fowler, Traded up For Goff

Chiefs - Sammy Watkins, Mitchell Schwartz, Anthony Hitchens, Cam Erving, Kendall Fuller, Damien Williams, Traded up For Mahomes as well

Patriots - Stephon Gilmore, Rex Burkhead, Cordarrelle Patterson, Trent Brown, Lawrence Guy, Jason McCourty, Kyle Van Noy

Saints - Max Unger, Larry Warford, Damario Davis, AJ Klein, Eli Apple, Ted Ginn, Signed Brees as a Free Agent originally

To be fair, we made some not insignificant moves last season in trading for Glenn and signing a somewhat high profile LB in Brown. I would hope the trend continues this offseason, especially given the changes that have already occurred.

(01-16-2019, 12:29 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: The Bengals are well known for having Hobspin tell us every offseason that they won't make very many big moves because the successful teams only build through the draft....well that logic has always been flawed but look no further than who is still in the playoffs as an example.

Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Ndamukong Suh, John Sulliven, Aqib Talib, Brandin Cooks, Dante Fowler, Traded up For Goff

Chiefs - Sammy Watkins, Mitchell Schwartz, Anthony Hitchens, Cam Erving, Kendall Fuller, Damien Williams, Traded up For Mahomes as well

Patriots - Stephon Gilmore, Rex Burkhead, Cordarrelle Patterson, Trent Brown, Lawrence Guy, Jason McCourty, Kyle Van Noy

Saints - Max Unger, Larry Warford, Damario Davis, AJ Klein, Eli Apple, Ted Ginn, Signed Brees as a Free Agent originally

No doubt about it. It appears Taylor has control over the staff, which is good. Now give him the ability to recruit some good free agents to bolster the roster and put the team in a better position when the draft rolls around.

(01-16-2019, 12:29 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: The Bengals are well known for having Hobspin tell us every offseason that they won't make very many big moves because the successful teams only build through the draft....well that logic has always been flawed but look no further than who is still in the playoffs as an example.

Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Ndamukong Suh, John Sulliven, Aqib Talib, Brandin Cooks, Dante Fowler, Traded up For Goff

Chiefs - Sammy Watkins, Mitchell Schwartz, Anthony Hitchens, Cam Erving, Kendall Fuller, Damien Williams, Traded up For Mahomes as well

Patriots - Stephon Gilmore, Rex Burkhead, Cordarrelle Patterson, Trent Brown, Lawrence Guy, Jason McCourty, Kyle Van Noy

Saints - Max Unger, Larry Warford, Damario Davis, AJ Klein, Eli Apple, Ted Ginn, Signed Brees as a Free Agent originally

Agreed. The Bengals need to be better in FA.
As for the teams who only build through the draft, I think most reference the Steelers. Well, the Steelers have only played in a Super Bowl once in the past decade and lost. I don't know if their model really is the model for the best success anymore. On top of the teams you listed, back when the Broncos were constantly going deep in the playoffs, they made a big FA signing in Peyton Manning. If they hadn't signed Manning, they likely would never have gone to a Super Bowl, let alone win one.
FA is not about getting a bunch of guys and blowing a bunch of money, it's about bringing in 1-3 really good players who will take your team to the next level. This is something the Bengals have not been good at doing.

(01-16-2019, 12:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: To be fair, we made some not insignificant moves last season in trading for Glenn and signing a somewhat high profile LB in Brown. I would hope the trend continues this offseason, especially given the changes that have already occurred.

The Cordy Glenn trade was refreshing to see. I didn't think he was as bad as a lot of other people did either. Hopefully we start to see more of that along with actually spending some money on young talent in Free Agency. There are a lot of holes right now on this team so addressing a couple of spots through Trade or Free Agency would go a long way in building in the right direction.

Totally agree !

The days of teams making the big show without some help in free agency are mostly over. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If this core is kept together we'll need free agent help and fast, time is running out.

Top shelf types ! I don't mean break the bank with big $$$$ QB's and CB's and DE's. I mean a LBer and an Olineman possibly a DT or TE.

We can't fix this team thru the draft alone, fast enough.

(01-16-2019, 12:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Totally agree !

The days of teams making the big show without some help in free agency are mostly over. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If this core is kept together we'll need free agent help and fast, time is running out.

Top shelf types ! I don't mean break the bank with big $$$$ QB's and CB's and DE's. I mean a LBer and an Olineman possibly a DT or TE.

We can't fix this team thru the draft alone, fast enough.

No we cannot. Our two best players and potential Hall of Famers in AJ and Geno are not getting any younger. As you said we can't upgrade this team quickly through the draft alone. We need to address 1 or 2 Linebacker positions (depending on Malik Jeffersons jump), Right Tackle, Potentially Right Guard if they aren't going to give Westerman a chance or move Price over and let Hopkins play Center, and then the big question is can they find something at Quarterback. Dalton is decent but looking at how the Rams and Chiefs were active in trading up to get their franchise Quarterbacks really makes me wish we could do the same. Haskins anyone?

(01-16-2019, 12:50 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: The Cordy Glenn trade was refreshing to see. I didn't think he was as bad as a lot of other people did either. Hopefully we start to see more of that along with actually spending some money on young talent in Free Agency. There are a lot of holes right now on this team so addressing a couple of spots through Trade or Free Agency would go a long way in building in the right direction.

While things like the Glenn trade, drafting Ogbuehi and Fisher to replace Smith and Whitworth, and bringing in certain B-to-C tier FAs to solidify positions is refreshing and gives off the impression of "We're trying," it's only really being accepted right now because of the previous perception that they weren't trying. Eventually, moves like this will be criticized because the expectation will no longer be "bring in replacements" but bring in GOOD/BETTER replacements. Not every player has to come in lighting it up, but we need to see proper growth from these players because right now it's seen (especially in the area of draft) that they pick bad players and/or are bad at developing raw talent.

(01-16-2019, 12:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Totally agree !

The days of teams making the big show without some help in free agency are mostly over. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If this core is kept together we'll need free agent help and fast, time is running out.

Top shelf types ! I don't mean break the bank with big $$$$ QB's and CB's and DE's. I mean a LBer and an Olineman possibly a DT or TE.

We can't fix this team thru the draft alone, fast enough.

I'm pretty sure that you can point to at least 1 impactful FA acquisition that the Patriots did every year they have gone to a Super Bowl. They aren't always the highest profile guys, but there's always at least one who plays really well and makes a difference.

The FO needs to stop being passive in FA and be aggressive. Identify the guys that you want and will make the team better, then go get them. Don’t wait for agents to start calling you because their client isn’t getting interest from the rest of the league.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000917412/article/top-101-nfl-free-agents-of-2018-kirk-cousins-tops-the-board

So let's go through that list a ways. Go through the top 50 on that list and 3 or maybe 4 of the top 50 (Who actually changed teams, not resigns) made impacts on playoff teams. Many of the top 50 made no real difference for their team. While there are times to swing, the stats still show most the swinging in FA for the big name guys don't work out. Now it's not saying some of the mid to lower level FA's didn't have rolls or even make an impact, but I think some people get caught up on the big name first day guys and the reality is they tend to get over paid by bad teams.

I think you build your core through the draft but you have to bring in some key free agents every few years to get you over the hump. The problem we have is we have a few bad drafts the have hurt the core group and our star players are getting older.

(01-16-2019, 05:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000917412/article/top-101-nfl-free-agents-of-2018-kirk-cousins-tops-the-board

So let's go through that list a ways. Go through the top 50 on that list and 3 or maybe 4 of the top 50 (Who actually changed teams, not resigns) made impacts on playoff teams. Many of the top 50 made no real difference for their team. While there are times to swing, the stats still show most the swinging in FA for the big name guys don't work out. Now it's not saying some of the mid to lower level FA's didn't have rolls or even make an impact, but I think some people get caught up on the big name first day guys and the reality is they tend to get over paid by bad teams.

No one is saying to build the team through that but when you have major needs or 3 or 4 spots you need to try and address that through trades or free agency also. The list above is all starters right now for those teams and acquired through trade and free agency. Clearly what the Bengals have been doing isn’t working so switch it up and be more aggressive is all we are asking.

(01-16-2019, 12:29 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: The Bengals are well known for having Hobspin tell us every offseason that they won't make very many big moves because the successful teams only build through the draft....well that logic has always been flawed but look no further than who is still in the playoffs as an example.

Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Ndamukong Suh, John Sulliven, Aqib Talib, Brandin Cooks, Dante Fowler, Traded up For Goff

Chiefs - Sammy Watkins, Mitchell Schwartz, Anthony Hitchens, Cam Erving, Kendall Fuller, Damien Williams, Traded up For Mahomes as well

Patriots - Stephon Gilmore, Rex Burkhead, Cordarrelle Patterson, Trent Brown, Lawrence Guy, Jason McCourty, Kyle Van Noy

Saints - Max Unger, Larry Warford, Damario Davis, AJ Klein, Eli Apple, Ted Ginn, Signed Brees as a Free Agent originally

For sure, every year i always am hoping we free up the Draft through FA and never do quite enough to do this. Last year i think we did better with the Glenn trade and went a little further and drafted a Center with our 1st round pick. Pretty shocking considering the history of this team and not valuing Center. But we needed to go a step farther and should of gotten a Guard in FA and drafted an OT in the 4th round.

This year we have to go much further especially if Taylor is eyeing a QB in the first round like Haskins or Murray. We will have to get atleast one OL in FA and atleast one playmaking LB'er to free this up. Think it might actually happen this year from what we are seeing. Taylor seems to have complete control and is creating HIS team of coaches to go with HIS team.

(01-16-2019, 06:14 PM)JungleRock85 Wrote: No one is saying to build the team through that but when you have major needs or 3 or 4 spots you need to try and address that through trades or free agency also. The list above is all starters right now for those teams and acquired through trade and free agency. Clearly what the Bengals have been doing isn’t working so switch it up and be more aggressive is all we are asking.

The premise was winning teams made moves, my point was many of the biggest moves were busts and that’s common. Preston Brown was a starter too before he got hurt so if that’s the only thing then we accomplished that. It seems many want to insinuate it’s what puts teams over the top, which is true occasionally, but not much. The Giants signed the top O linemen this last year and they thought it would fix their O line...they were still horrible.

I’m not saying moves should be made, but people want to discount Glenn and Brown and they were about as productive as a lot of the big name trades and FAs in general.

(01-16-2019, 06:18 PM)Au165 Wrote: The premise was winning teams made moves, my point was many of the biggest moves were busts and that’s common. Preston Brown was a starter too before he got hurt so if that’s the only thing then we accomplished that. It seems many want to insinuate it’s what puts teams over the top, which is true occasionally, but not much. The Giants signed the top O linemen this last year and they thought it would fix their O line...they were still horrible.

I’m not saying moves should be made, but people want to discount Glenn and Brown and they were about as productive as a lot of the big name trades and FAs in general.

Exactly.  Fans like to point out that winning teams sign some big name free agents, but the truth is that losing teams sign lots of big name free agents also.  So the proof is that signing big name free agents can help teams win, but it can also help them lose.

Last year we brought in an OT who was among the top 10 in salary for his position and an ILB who salary among the top half of the league at his. 

With the way this team is constructed - with a talented but aging core - we need more of a re-tooling (via FA) than a complete rebuild via draft.

So yeah, I definitely agree that we need to be active in FA.

(01-16-2019, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  Fans like to point out that winning teams sign some big name free agents, but the truth is that losing teams sign lots of big name free agents also.  So the proof is that signing big name free agents can help teams win, but it can also help them lose.

Last year we brought in an OT who was among the top 10 in salary for his position and an ILB who salary among the top half of the league at his. 

But how many of the final 4 teams have been very passive in free agency?

Pointing out that "some teams lose even with free agents" doesn't change the fact that the top teams were active.

(01-16-2019, 06:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But how many of the final 4 teams have been very passive in free agency?

Pointing out that "some teams lose even with free agents" doesn't change the fact that the top teams were active.

For me a lot of the moves made by the final four teams are looked back at more fondly than when they make them. No one was clapping for the Tams for signing CJ Anderson when they did it. Kyle Van Noy was a bit of a throw away when the Patriots signed him but he’s been productive. Sure there have been a couple big name ones that worked but a lot of their signings were Preston Brown types or lower they just have the luxury of looking at them favorably after the team won.

If you haven four starters that you absolutely have to replace and you can replace two of them with FA's, then you're halfway there before the draft. They need to be starter quality at the minimum.

They did step outside their box last off season and people are hoping it continues on to the next step. Seems like you want to arm your new coach as well as you can.

There will be money to spend and there is no reason not to do it.