Since Votto is getting older and has the mindset of OBP, walking and choking up to put the ball in play.... would this be the year that you hit him number 2 and forget about the 3 spot? Age should reduce his power, choking up does too. I’d move him to number 2 and let him be a table setter, isn’t his mindset geared to that anyways? There are some legitimate options for spots 3 and 4 this year too! Where would you hit JV?

Votto is just one year removed from hitting 36 HR and finishing 6th in the NL in slugging percentage.  I don't think he has a "mindset" of giving up on being a power hitter.  Instead I am pretty sure his numbers last season were due to some sort of injury.

In fact I believe that Votto returning to form could be one of the biggest keys to us competeing for the playoffs this year.

I like Joey and feel he has been good for the Reds. However, I also feel he was not worth the $225 million contract. Anyways, we are stuck with him for a few more years and might as well use him in the best way. He does well on defense and his offense may start to lag. I would bat him 3rd until he showed his power is reduced and move him to 2nd. I think I would rest him more this year and maybe some late game replacements with an outfielder playing first.

Seems like Bell is toying with the idea of placing JV 2nd in the line-up but I would keep him third and move Senzel to 2nd in order.

(03-03-2019, 11:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Votto is just one year removed from hitting 36 HR and finishing 6th in the NL in slugging percentage.  I don't think he has a "mindset" of giving up on being a power hitter.  Instead I am pretty sure his numbers last season were due to some sort of injury.

In fact I believe that Votto returning to form could be one of the biggest keys to us competeing for the playoffs this year.

You don’t think that his power numbers dropped any because of aging and the philosophy to choke up more often? Choking up does reduce the power but maybe he choked up more because of some type of injury. The best idea would probably be to hit him third for at least a month. They shouldn’t hesitate to move him to 2nd after a month if there’s little pop left. He could still have a couple of years of decent power left in him.

He will fall off at some point which in and of itself isn't a complete disaster. What would be a disaster is if he falls off drastically and management decides to still treat him like the best hitter in the game with a .192 BA and keep him at the top of the lineup playing every day instead of saying, Look Joey, we want to let you retire as a Red, but you're no longer the maque player so lets use you like older players have always been used...... 

(03-04-2019, 01:57 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: You don’t think that his power numbers dropped any because of aging and the philosophy to choke up more often? 

I don't think age would have had that extreme of an impact in just one season.  After three straight years with an OPS around a thousand it suddenly dropped almost 200 points from '17 (1.032) to '18 (.837).  

I have no problems with JV except this:

Bottom of the 8th runners on 1st and 2nd one out down by two runs. JV comes up and takes a 5 pitch walk and only has the bat off his shoulder once ! 3 of the 4 balls he took were extremely close to the strike zone and could have been called strikes by many umpires. Votto walks and the next batter hits into a 6-4-3 DP, we lose.

He's not aggressive enough in situations where it's absolutely called for ! He's among the league leaders in walks every season and a lot of that isn't intentional walks or pitching around him, some is for sure to be fair.

He's failed to be clutch in many games and many seasons. We don't need more base runners in situations like the one above, we need somebody to knock the cover off the ball and JV can do that if he wasn't so damn into waiting on the perfect pitch !

I'm with Fred on JV being a big determining factor on this season. Do we get 2016 JV or 2018 JV ?

Swing the damn bat Joey !

(03-04-2019, 05:16 AM)grampahol Wrote: He will fall off at some point which in and of itself isn't a complete disaster. What would be a disaster is if he falls off drastically and management decides to still treat him like the best hitter in the game with a .192 BA and keep him at the top of the lineup playing every day instead of saying, Look Joey, we want to let you retire as a Red, but you're no longer the maque player so lets use you like older players have always been used...... 

I’m not too worried about his contact hitting, he just needs to hit where he helps the team the most. If he’s driving the ball, that’s good. If he’s not, he shouldn’t hit third on name alone.

(03-04-2019, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think age would have had that extreme of an impact in just one season.  After three straight years with an OPS around a thousand it suddenly dropped almost 200 points from '17 (1.032) to '18 (.837).  

Well, he did drop for some reason or another. I think that as great as he is figuring out the game that when he does struggle, overthinking may also play a part.

(03-04-2019, 12:26 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I have no problems with JV except this:

Bottom of the 8th runners on 1st and 2nd one out down by two runs. JV comes up and takes a 5 pitch walk and only has the bat off his shoulder once ! 3 of the 4 balls he took were extremely close to the strike zone and could have been called strikes by many umpires. Votto walks and the next batter hits into a 6-4-3 DP, we lose.

He's not aggressive enough in situations where it's absolutely called for ! He's among the league leaders in walks every season and a lot of that isn't intentional walks or pitching around him, some is for sure to be fair.

He's failed to be clutch in many games and many seasons. We don't need more base runners in situations like the one above, we need somebody to knock the cover off the ball and JV can do that if he wasn't so damn into waiting on the perfect pitch !

I'm with Fred on JV being a big determining factor on this season. Do we get 2016 JV or 2018 JV ?

Swing the damn bat Joey !

I’ve criticized him in the past for being passive at the wrong times too. I do think that he may feel revived this year with all of the new teammates. A better pitching staff sure won’t hurt either.

I fully expect the Reds to move him to the #2 slot, yes.

He has already been there a few times in Spring Training. I trust Bell to do the right thing and keep him there :) .

I sometimes wonder how history will view Votto in the context of all time great Reds players. Without some kind of post season heroics from him his legacy won't be seen quite as good as many others throughout history. It's post season heroics that really cement players legacies in the long term.. He'll be seen as one of the all time great regular season players, but post season legacy has yet to be written. 

(03-06-2019, 01:05 PM)grampahol Wrote: I sometimes wonder how history will view Votto in the context of all time great Reds players. Without some kind of post season heroics from him his legacy won't be seen quite as good as many others throughout history. It's post season heroics that really cement players legacies in the long term.. He'll be seen as one of the all time great regular season players, but post season legacy has yet to be written. 

He hasn’t really stood out in the playoffs and has looked horrible in the AllStar Games until his one Dinger last year. Many fans claim that he’s easily the best hitter that the Reds have ever had. I don’t agree with that. He’s easily the best OBP player that the Reds have ever had. I don’t think that he’s the most valuable player that the Reds have ever had either. I think that his Career number averages will continue to fall over the rest of his career. I think that after he passes a few more milestones that he will probably end up a Hall Of Famer. That Career OBP is just so good.

(03-06-2019, 10:17 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: He hasn’t really stood out in the playoffs and has looked horrible in the AllStar Games until his one Dinger last year. Many fans claim that he’s easily the best hitter that the Reds have ever had. I don’t agree with that. He’s easily the best OBP player that the Reds have ever had. I don’t think that he’s the most valuable player that the Reds have ever had either. I think that his Career number averages will continue to fall over the rest of his career. I think that after he passes a few more milestones that he will probably end up a Hall Of Famer. That Career OBP is just so good.

Yeah, usually there's three things that get you the HOF nod: winning, a gaudy definitive stat, or an "IT" factor. Joey checks one of the boxes, so he'll be remembered as a great. But without the postseason success, he's fighting an uphill battle. He'll have his number retired by the Reds, but not so sure about the baseball HOF.

(03-06-2019, 10:17 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: He hasn’t really stood out in the playoffs and has looked horrible in the AllStar Games until his one Dinger last year. Many fans claim that he’s easily the best hitter that the Reds have ever had. I don’t agree with that. He’s easily the best OBP player that the Reds have ever had. I don’t think that he’s the most valuable player that the Reds have ever had either. I think that his Career number averages will continue to fall over the rest of his career. I think that after he passes a few more milestones that he will probably end up a Hall Of Famer. That Career OBP is just so good.

I'll 2nd that,

He keeps the bat on his shoulder looking for walks way to many times when we need hits. Or in other words he's not clutch enough. I heard the announcers say last season he only had like 5 ? can't remember for sure, infield pop ups in the last 7 seasons or something ? just incredible, but he's always waiting on that perfect pitch. Joey you're not going to get it, swing the damn bat !

(03-07-2019, 03:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'll 2nd that,

He keeps the bat on his shoulder looking for walks way to many times when we need hits. Or in other words he's not clutch enough. I heard the announcers say last season he only had like 5 ? can't remember for sure, infield pop ups in the last 7 seasons or something ? just incredible, but he's always waiting on that perfect pitch. Joey you're not going to get it, swing the damn bat !

Worth noting the teams he was on. No smart pitcher is going after Joey bats. Also the fact that getting on base is a base hit. Clearly it doesn’t always drive in a run, but a walk is essentially equal to a hit. At worst, it’s not an out. I totally understand the point but think it’s slightly over blown

I just got throiugh posting about the Eifert Dilema and now I am dealing with the Votto Dilema.  I don't know which one is worse.

What do you guys think?  Is the ED worse than the VD?

(03-07-2019, 03:17 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yeah, usually there's three things that get you the HOF nod: winning, a gaudy definitive stat, or an "IT" factor. Joey checks one of the boxes, so he'll be remembered as a great. But without the postseason success, he's fighting an uphill battle. He'll have his number retired by the Reds, but not so sure about the baseball HOF.

I think that he’s gonna get in. He does need about 3 more above average years though. Outside of his OBP, his career numbers aren’t going to be that high for a first baseman.

(03-07-2019, 03:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'll 2nd that,

He keeps the bat on his shoulder looking for walks way to many times when we need hits. Or in other words he's not clutch enough. I heard the announcers say last season he only had like 5 ? can't remember for sure, infield pop ups in the last 7 seasons or something ? just incredible, but he's always waiting on that perfect pitch. Joey you're not going to get it, swing the damn bat !

He values not making an out way too much. That is great but sometimes his greatness can be somewhat frustrating, if that makes any sense.