Mixed in with all of the anger and frustration over free agency I'm seeing phrases like "worst in the NFL", "expansion team", and "tank", but can we just actually look at our roster for a second and reflect on this? Because I think that people are vastly exaggerating just how bad this roster actually is...

Offense -
QB: Andy Dalton*, 21 TDs to 11 INTs last year, was on pace for 3700 yards, has had a good-to-great career here despite naysayers
WR1: AJ Green*, was on pace for 81 catches and 1200 yards last season, Hall of Fame caliber player
WR2: Tyler Boyd*, 76 catches, 1028 yards, despite missing 2 games last year
RB1: Joe Mixon*, 1168 yards, averaging 4.9 a carry, led the AFC in rushing. Also had 43 catches for almost 300 yards.
RB2: Gio Bernard*, shifty runner and good receiver, averaged over 4.6 a carry in starts last season.
TE: CJ Uzomah*, not great, but still had 43 receptions for 439 yards while playing hurt (18th in the league in yards). The rest of our TEs are not sorted out yet, but I think they'll bring back Tyler Eifert*, and wee know what he can do if healthy. I'll take those 2.
OL: Cordy Glenn and Clint Boling* were fine. Billy Price* struggled as a rookie, so you give him a little leeway there. Alex Redmond* and Bobby Hart were not good. Hopkins played well as a backup last year, and Westerman has his fans while buried in the depth chart.

Defense -
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year and played well. Glasgow* and Washington appear to provide solid depth at DT.
Secondary: William Jackson* is really, really good, and if last year was a disappointment it's primarily because of how high expectations were going in. Tyler Bates* had a great rookie year. Shawn Williams* is solid. Dre Kirkpatrick* is... well, let's go with serviceable. There's isn't much behind any of these guys.
Linebacker: If DL is the strongest position group, then this is by far the weakest. Vontaze Burfict* appears to be a shell of himself if he can even stay on the field. Nick Vigil* appears to be average, not necessarily someone you'd want starting. Preston Brown was hurt all of last year and has detractors, but he has led the NFL in tackles before as well. They don't have much behind these three, either.

So what does this tell me?
1) That no team with that much talent at the offensive skill positions is going to be the "worst in the league" or "expansion" level.
2) That since every player marked with a * was drafted by this front office, they're nowhere near as clueless as people like to pretend.
3) That the primary needs to address are linebacker, the right side of the OL, and TE (assuming they don't re-sign Eifert). I think these are what they grab with their first few picks.
4) That if you're planning to address those in the draft, the main focus in free agency should be depth, particularly in the secondary and wide receiver.

What the responses will be:
1) "Yeah, but these guys won 6 games last year." Would you say that is solely a product of the talent (many of whom got hurt, remember)?
2) "If those defensive guys are so good, why did they finish dead last in the league last year in defense?" Mostly coaching, IMO, and you can see that since they improved as soon as they ditched their DC. I believe the old expression that players and units generally "play to the back of their cards", so to speak, so I'll chalk it up as an outlier for now.
3) "Do you really think these guys have a shot next year?" Maybe, depending on if certain things fall the right way. I'm not writing them off just yet.
4) "Homer!" Do you really deny the talent this team has at the offensive skill positions and defensive lines? I've acknowledged where they need help, but it's not exactly everywhere on the field either. They have some real strengths out there.

Go ahead and replace Redmond with the new guard they just signed, too... already better!

I definitely don’t think the Bengals are bad as people say. The offense has good skill positions but if you cant win the line of scrimmage it dosen’t matter. I still have no confidence in Hart, Glenn has been hurt the last 3 seasons and looked average at best when playing, Boling is on the decline and the Jury is still out on Price. Do like the Miller signing tho. Factor in this line has to block guys like Oliver, Richardson and Garrett from Cleveland. The big picture thing for me is the QB who is going into his 10th season. Quarterback is the most important position in the league and when you get into big games in the playoffs your facing guys like Brady and Mahomes who are studs and can elevate those around them. Not saying Andy is terrible but he’s above average at best and needs a complete team around him like 2015 for us to maybe have a chance at winning it all.

b]Defense
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year.

If this is the strongest group , they didn’t show it last year. I don’t disagree with you but they didn’t play great last year. Lawson getting hurt was unfortunate but he was struggling before the injury. Dunlap didn’t get enough pressure on the QB and Atkins struggled in the second half of the season. Hard for some CBs to cover that long every play, We need pass rushers. A good pass rush makes everyone look better , a bad one makes them look worse. We need to take a pass rusher at 11..

Tbh, I never thought our "roster" was bad. We just had a couple position groups (o-line and LB's) that were so terrible that it sank the team. Fix those and I'd say Zac Taylor has no excuses not to win in 2019. Signing John Miller was a solid start. The Hart signing is puzzling though.

We obviously won't be switching him to Guard, and it's hard to see them paying $7 million for a backup Tackle, so I'd say we won't be drafting a Tackle at 11. So unless Price, Glenn and Hart show improvement, this still looks like a group capable of allowing 50 sacks and lots of pressure.

That said, maybe we actually will take a Tackle at 11. The market is crazy right now and we had to have a backup plan in case that Tackle isn't there in the draft. That's an expensive insurance policy, but it's not like we had much choice. Theoretically.

It's also possible we signed Hart because we're going QB at 11.

(03-15-2019, 01:46 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Go ahead and replace Redmond with the new guard they just signed, too... already better!

dispite everyone here being "fans" most seem to forget a large portion of our team was hurt last year.

(03-15-2019, 02:05 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I definitely don’t think the Bengals are bad as people say.  The offense has good skill positions but if you cant win the line of scrimmage it dosen’t matter. I still have no confidence in Hart, Glenn has been hurt the last 3 seasons and looked average at best when playing, Boling is on the decline and the Jury is still out on Price. Do like the Miller signing tho. Factor in this line has to block guys like Oliver, Richardson and Garrett from Cleveland. The big picture thing for me is the QB who is going into his 10th season. Quarterback is the most important position in the league and when you get into big games in the playoffs your facing guys like Brady and Mahomes who are studs and can elevate those around them. Not saying Andy is terrible but he’s above average at best and needs a complete team around him like 2015 for us to maybe have a chance at winning it all.

Name the Super Bowl team that didn't place a lot of weapons around the QB.

Even the ones you mention (Brady and Mahomes) have great lines and weapons. 

I'm not against drafting a QB. I'm against this logic that "QB fixes everything". I saw that logic on display throughout the 90's. 

For me the biggest issue of the roster is the depth. They need a better backup qb in case Andy goes down for a game or two, or more. They definitely need better WR depth. And so-on at other positions that are 1 injury away from disaster because the backups are just not good even as backups.

Otherwise, the starting roster is pretty solid overall. But when injuries come, they need better players to step up than what they have had. And this comes from better drafting and scouring free agents. Just my 2 cents on this.

(03-15-2019, 02:07 PM)Bengals731 Wrote: b]Defense
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year.

If this is the strongest group , they didn’t show it last year. I don’t disagree with you but they didn’t play great last year. Lawson getting hurt was unfortunate but he was struggling before the injury. Dunlap didn’t get enough pressure on the QB and Atkins struggled in the second half of the season. Hard for some CBs to cover that long every play, We need pass rushers. A good pass rush makes everyone look better , a bad one makes them look worse. We need to take a pass rusher at 11..

I agree with you that they didn't play up to expectations last year. There were predictions at the start of the season that they'd break the franchise record for sacks! The talent is there, though...

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: For me the biggest issue of the roster is the depth.  They need a better backup qb in case Andy goes down for a game or two, or more. They definitely need better WR depth. And so-on at other positions that are 1 injury away from disaster because the backups are just not good even as backups.

Otherwise, the starting roster is pretty solid overall. But when injuries come, they need better players to step up than what they have had. And this comes from better drafting and scouring free agents. Just my 2 cents on this.

Ol' Macaroni is available.

(03-15-2019, 02:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tbh, I never thought our "roster" was bad. We just had a couple position groups (o-line and LB's) that were so terrible that it sank the team. Fix those and I'd say Zac Taylor has no excuses not to win in 2019. Signing John Miller was a solid start. The Hart signing is puzzling though.

We obviously won't be switching him to Guard, and it's hard to see them paying $7 million for a backup Tackle, so I'd say we won't be drafting a Tackle at 11. So unless Price, Glenn and Hart show improvement, this still looks like a group capable of allowing 50 sacks and lots of pressure.

That said, maybe we actually will take a Tackle at 11. The market is crazy right now and we had to have a backup plan in case that Tackle isn't there in the draft. That's an expensive insurance policy, but it's not like we had much choice. Theoretically.

I think OT is a strong possibility in the 1st or 2nd round, even with the Hart signing. The Hart signing just gives them a little freedom... instead of saying "we absolutely have to find a starting RT in the 1st round", now they can say "ooh, White is available, let's grab him!"

Is $7 million as pricey for a backup if you plan on having him backup both a rookie and an often injured Glenn? I could maybe see the thought process behind that...

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: For me the biggest issue of the roster is the depth.  They need a better backup qb in case Andy goes down for a game or two, or more. They definitely need better WR depth. And so-on at other positions that are 1 injury away from disaster because the backups are just not good even as backups.

Otherwise, the starting roster is pretty solid overall. But when injuries come, they need better players to step up than what they have had. And this comes from better drafting and scouring free agents. Just my 2 cents on this.

Agreed, 100%. Depth is the biggest issue facing the team and *that's* the main thing I took from last year.

I'm hopeful Taylor can get something out of Ross and Malone, but I'd still like to have a veteran WR in case he can't.

(03-15-2019, 02:23 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I think OT is a strong possibility in the 1st or 2nd round, even with the Hart signing. The Hart signing just gives them a little freedom... instead of saying "we absolutely have to find a starting RT in the 1st round", now they can say "ooh, White is available, let's grab him!"

Is $7 million as pricey for a backup if you plan on having him backup both a rookie and an often injured Glenn? I could maybe see the thought process behind that...

Has he ever played LT? If he's capable of swinging to both spots, that would obviously increase his value as a backup. $7 million is still high for a backup though. IIRC, he has the 7th biggest cap figure among RT's for 2019. Obviously, that screams starter money.

(03-15-2019, 02:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ol' Macaroni is available.

Haha, Id take him over Drickel. Personally I'd like to see them do a Patriots and draft a QB in 2-3 round range as the backup in an ideal Bengal world, but they cant afford to because they need those picks for other spots desperately for depth and rotation time. I just hope they dont settle with who they have right now for the most important backup job.

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)Millhouse Wrote: For me the biggest issue of the roster is the depth.  They need a better backup qb in case Andy goes down for a game or two, or more. They definitely need better WR depth. And so-on at other positions that are 1 injury away from disaster because the backups are just not good even as backups.

Otherwise, the starting roster is pretty solid overall. But when injuries come, they need better players to step up than what they have had. And this comes from better drafting and scouring free agents. Just my 2 cents on this.

I'll make it 3 cents.  I mentioned this is another thread somewhere, depth is ABSOLUTELY the biggest problem with this roster.

Better scouting (drafting/FAs) is definitely a part of the equation, but development of players can't be overlooked either.  I don't think we developed well, overall, the last few years.  Let's hope the new staff does a better job of that as well.

(03-15-2019, 02:25 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Agreed, 100%. Depth is the biggest issue facing the team and *that's* the main thing I took from last year.

I'm hopeful Taylor can get something out of Ross and Malone, but I'd still like to have a veteran WR in case he can't.

Im hopeful too on them. And hopeful they use Erickson as a scrappy possession receiver to work the underneath routes as opposed to how they lined him up on the outside last year running fly patters for crying out loud lol.

(03-15-2019, 02:33 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Im hopeful too on them. And hopeful they use Erickson as a scrappy possession receiver to work the underneath routes as opposed to how they lined him up on the outside last year running fly patters for crying out loud lol.

To me, this is where Erickson could excel.  And, for the love of Pete, get more use out of Bernard this year!

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Name the Super Bowl team that didn't place a lot of weapons around the QB.

Even the ones you mention (Brady and Mahomes) have great lines and weapons. 

I'm not against drafting a QB. I'm against this logic that "QB fixes everything". I saw that logic on display throughout the 90's. 

My point with Dalton was you almost need an all star team around him like 2015 to make it to the Super Bowl which is the ultimate goal and that a franchise qb hides some of those weakness on the roster. 2015 is almost impossible to duplicate without signing quality free agents. We literally were crushing draft picks at a ridiculous/ unsubstantial rate by getting guys like Marvin Jones and Iloka in the 5th, with pillars of the team in Geno Atkins in the fourth round, striking gold by taking chances on controversial players like Burfict/ jones. Getting guys like Zetiler in a trade from Oakland for Plamer. Eifert having his only healthy season as a pro. Basically every single thing went right for us and it’s hard to replicate when you rely mostly on the draft to build your team and then start drafting guys like Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine, Ect. Don’t get you point about the 90’s the logic was right that a qb solves many issues the problem was they drafted guys who weren’t even close to fanchise QBs in absolute bums like Akilis Smith.

(03-15-2019, 02:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: dispite everyone here being "fans" most seem to forget a large portion of our team was hurt last year.

NFL Network had a round table type discussion on the AFC North (Marvin Lewis was one of the speakers along with others).

They barely even mentioned the Bengals and only in a joking way where Marvin was told by Joe Thomas that Marvin was not allowed to pick the Bengals to win the Division.

It was all Browns, Ravens and Steelers with the Browns getting most of the attention for the #1 spot.

They didn't even mention how the return of injured Key starters for the Bengals might give them a shot.

Barely (& just barely) even said the name Bengals during the whole discussion.

It was like the Bengals did not exist and it was a 3 team Division.

I mean, as of now, it's pretty much the exact same roster as the one that went 6-10 last year.

The main cast (Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlop, Burfict, Dre, Geno etc) were also parts of rosters that won 6, and then 7 games the two years prior. It's hard to argue an anomaly with those results. Not to mention much of that same core has seen ZERO postzeason success in EIGHT seasons.

While I will agree that talks of 0-16, or comparisons made to expansion rosters are unfair, I fail to see how any of this is supposse to inspire confidence.

To each their own, but at this point I think people can save their stats, and breakdowns. I keepbreading much of the same year after year, yet the results never change all that much.

PS This song pops into my head whenever I see your posts. I applaud your optimism though...

https://youtu.be/X78i13q-atk