(03-31-2019, 04:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's the $64 question

Let's face it that's the true hurdle he has to clear. It's not who the position coaches are, it's not what players he gets in free agency, it's not who he drafts, it's not what offense he runs.

This team has a history of losing nearly three decades long, even in the playoff seasons we were one and done all 7 times ! We fold up under the lights nearly every time, rarely do we beat the good teams in the league when we need it most. We implode at the slightest sign of adversity way more often than not. The Steelers have owned us for far to long now. And the list goes on.

Can he get that culture turned around ? Can he win with the leagues worst GM ? Can he get this team to focus on team and not I ? Can he get this team to stay steady under pressure, can he get them to buy in ? Can he get them to not listen to the noise against Pittsburgh ?

That's his biggest test of all

It really depends what you mean by culture.

If you mean just become a consistent winner again, get the stands filled, and get the fan base excited again, I think it can be done.
If you mean getting the FO change their approach to help accomplish that, I'm very skeptical. I say that because it took years to do that with Marvin and they still never really got to the point where we all would have liked. And this would have been a perfect opportunity with the new regime coming in.

Ultimately, the culture change will need to be providing more guaranteed money to incentivize players to come to Cincinnati as well as going after more high profile FAs and being willing to trade UP in the early rounds of the draft, not back. But I think this team can get back to 8-10 win seasons soon even if they continue business as usual.

(04-02-2019, 12:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What evidence do we have that Zac Taylor is a genius?

He likes Booby Hart and he isn't afraid to tell Bengals fans that we are wrong about Mike Brown.  Er...wait.


In all fairness, our idea of "genius" is a HC who will play Auden Tate whether he deserves playing time or not, so what do we know. But if ZT is going to change the culture, he's going to have to do it while saying the opposite things, because he's been very complimentary of the Mike Brown way, thus far. We shall see what happens, but part of me feels like we are rooting for ZT to be the guy who gets through to Mike Brown the same way Browns fans were rooting for every QB they threw into the fire for the past 20 years to magically become "the guy." The idea of Mike Brown handing control over to a 35 year old HC who has been here for 15 minutes after he handcuffed Marvin Lewis for almost 2 decades is as hard to swallow as the concept of Kevin Hogan being the next Tom Brady, but there are people out there who hoped it would happen until it didn't. Fingers crossed, and all that jazz.

But hope springs eternal. If ZT doesn't change the culture here maybe the next guy will.

(04-02-2019, 12:42 PM)depthchart Wrote: To me, if Zac is truly an Innovative Genius then he will DEMAND a Ton of leeway and be willing to walk if he doesn't get it.

Easy for me to say, since he would be walking away from a lot of money but most Geniuses likely don't allow their Genius to be harnessed by someone that tells them things that they know are not Genius ideas.

I agree with you that he is getting a bit of leeway but he may have to fight for much more leeway going forward to reach Genius level success.

It will likely take some proving and growing on his part, as well.  You know the old analogy;  You gotta walk before you run, you also have to prove that you can maintain a hectic pace, if you're ever going to win this marathon like competition that is called the NFL Championship.

(04-02-2019, 01:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It will likely take some proving and growing on his part, as well.  You know the old analogy;  You gotta walk before you run, you also have to prove that you can maintain a hectic pace, if you're ever going to win this marathon like competition that is called the NFL Championship.

Do we have any idea how much power Marvin Lewis actually had?  When did he get this power, assuming he had any?  I remember Marvin Lewis demanding an indoor practice facility in 2010 and not getting it, and Marvin even said he was done in Cincy twice before he was finally let go.  All I can do is speculate, but if Mike Brown gives ZT any power, much less a lot of power, he will be doing it in a sort of over-reaction sort of manner.

Either that or ZT will get full leeway to do whatever he likes to shape this franchise as long as Mike Brown signs off on it.  

(04-02-2019, 01:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: He likes Booby Hart and he isn't afraid to tell Bengals fans that we are wrong about Mike Brown.  Er...wait.


In all fairness, our idea of "genius" is a HC who will play Auden Tate whether he deserves playing time or not, so what do we know.  But if ZT is going to change the culture, he's going to have to do it while saying the opposite things, because he's been very complimentary of the Mike Brown way, thus far.  We shall see what happens, but part of me feels like we are rooting for ZT to be the guy who gets through to Mike Brown the same way Browns fans were rooting for every QB they threw into the fire for the past 20 years to magically become "the guy."  The idea of Mike Brown handing control over to a 35 year old HC who has been here for 15 minutes after he handcuffed Marvin Lewis for almost 2 decades is as hard to swallow as the concept of Kevin Hogan being the next Tom Brady, but there are people out there who hoped it would happen until it didn't.  Fingers crossed, and all that jazz.

But hope springs eternal.  If ZT doesn't change the culture here maybe the next guy will.

People like to say McVay is a genius, but the Rams had a #1 overall pick QB. An MVP caliber RB. A good offensive line. And a pretty loaded young defense.

Then they went out and spent in free agency to become better. They didn't go out and add BW Webb, Kerry Wynn, and Jonathan Miller.

(04-02-2019, 01:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: He likes Booby Hart and he isn't afraid to tell Bengals fans that we are wrong about Mike Brown.  Er...wait.


In all fairness, our idea of "genius" is a HC who will play Auden Tate whether he deserves playing time or not, so what do we know.  But if ZT is going to change the culture, he's going to have to do it while saying the opposite things, because he's been very complimentary of the Mike Brown way, thus far.  We shall see what happens, but part of me feels like we are rooting for ZT to be the guy who gets through to Mike Brown the same way Browns fans were rooting for every QB they threw into the fire for the past 20 years to magically become "the guy."  The idea of Mike Brown handing control over to a 35 year old HC who has been here for 15 minutes after he handcuffed Marvin Lewis for almost 2 decades is as hard to swallow as the concept of Kevin Hogan being the next Tom Brady, but there are people out there who hoped it would happen until it didn't.  Fingers crossed, and all that jazz.

But hope springs eternal.  If ZT doesn't change the culture here maybe the next guy will.

So being all gloom and doom is the way to go? Do we all personally know Mike Brown? Maybe he does want to win, but just throwing millions around doesn't guarantee championships, when's the last time Dallas or Washington won anything? I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be called out at times. As for ZT, he knows way the hell more about football than the people on this board. He has brought more energy than any coach we've had since Sam, so far. It's a positive start, but we have to wait a couple of more months to see if happens on the field. 
We got we wanted and that was Merv being let go. The FO is not going to change and there is absolutely nothing you or I or anyone else can do about that. Why not just chill people until we see the team play on the field.

(04-02-2019, 01:30 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So being all gloom and doom is the way to go? Do we all personally know Mike Brown? Maybe he does want to win, but just throwing millions around doesn't guarantee championships, when's the last time Dallas or Washington won anything? I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be called out at times. As for ZT, he knows way the hell more about football than the people on this board. He has brought more energy than any coach we've had since Sam, so far. It's a positive start, but we have to wait a couple of more months to see if happens on the field. 
We got we wanted and that was Merv being let go. The FO is not going to change and there is absolutely nothing you or I or anyone else can do about that. Why not just chill people until we see the team play on the field.

Track Record - We've had the same de facto GM for the past 27 years of 0 playoff wins.

You can cite Dallas and Washington as reasons free agency doesn't work...but the Bengals model is beyond broken as EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the league has won a playoff game since we last did.

And as far as Coach...what other owner keeps a coach for 15 years and 0-7 in the playoffs? GM's and Coaches get fired all the times in other cities.

Had we changed coaches every 3-4-5 years, maybe we stumble upon the right model at some point. Instead, we went the known mediocre route.

(04-02-2019, 01:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: People like to say McVay is a genius, but the Rams had a #1 overall pick QB. An MVP caliber RB. A good offensive line. And a pretty loaded young defense.

Then they went out and spent in free agency to become better. They didn't go out and add BW Webb, Kerry Wynn, and Jonathan Miller.

This.

I am not saying McVey is not a good coach, but any team should improve a lot when you add 4 first team All Pro veterans.

(04-02-2019, 01:30 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So being all gloom and doom is the way to go? Do we all personally know Mike Brown? Maybe he does want to win, but just throwing millions around doesn't guarantee championships, when's the last time Dallas or Washington won anything? I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be called out at times. As for ZT, he knows way the hell more about football than the people on this board. He has brought more energy than any coach we've had since Sam, so far. It's a positive start, but we have to wait a couple of more months to see if happens on the field. 
We got we wanted and that was Merv being let go. The FO is not going to change and there is absolutely nothing you or I or anyone else can do about that. Why not just chill people until we see the team play on the field.

I'm not being doom and gloom, but I'm just trying to keep realistic expectations.

And I'll have you know I"m quite chill...odd how you claim ZT has brought more energy than any HC we've had in 30 years but you want the fans to chill out.

Also, as big a joke as the Cowboys and Redskins have been they have both hoisted the Lombardi since the last time we won a playoff game.  Mike Brown has been running the show here for almost 30 years so forgive me if I'm not expecting sweeping changes just because the guy hired a millennial and got rid of the same ol' Marv.

I will admit though, it's possible Mike Brown hands the keys of the kingdom to ZT and ZT is exactly the man to turn this franchise around.  It's a long shot, but hey, so are the Browns to make the SB, right?

(04-02-2019, 01:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

I am not saying McVey is not a good coach, but any team should improve a lot when you add 4 first team All Pro veterans.

Yep. And they addressed their weaknesses. They had issues at Tackle and went out and got Whitworth. They brought Sullivan in at Center.

In the NFL, having top end talent is good...but you also need to minimize how many bottom tier starters you have. The Rams get this.

Fans look at our roster and see Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Mixon, etc and think WOW we are ready to win. But bad starters negate that.

Look at the defense: We had a pretty good defensive line and a pretty good secondary. But our LB's were terrible. They gave up some 1800+ yards receiving. That means that a QB has an easy dump off all day to TE's and RB's. That made the pass rush ineffective. Then our LB's couldn't tackle so teams ran all over us.

Now, IF you put a couple above average LB's out there, we likely have a Top 15 defense instead of the worst defense in the NFL.

(04-02-2019, 01:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. And they addressed their weaknesses. They had issues at Tackle and went out and got Whitworth. They brought Sullivan in at Center.

In the NFL, having top end talent is good...but you also need to minimize how many bottom tier starters you have. The Rams get this.

Fans look at our roster and see Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Mixon, etc and think WOW we are ready to win. But bad starters negate that.

Look at the defense: We had a pretty good defensive line and a pretty good secondary. But our LB's were terrible. They gave up some 1800+ yards receiving. That means that a QB has an easy dump off all day to TE's and RB's. That made the pass rush ineffective. Then our LB's couldn't tackle so teams ran all over us.

Now, IF you put a couple above average LB's out there, we likely have a Top 15 defense instead of the worst defense in the NFL.

I agree, but great coaches develop players and put them in a position to win the one on one battles. I saw some guys make great strides like Boyd, but I saw more guys regress or stay the same. Is it the player or the coaches developing them and keeping them employed when they don't perform? Let's see how Zac does. It is easy to blame it on the coach, I think it is a combo of both coaches and players.

(04-02-2019, 09:11 AM)HuDey Wrote: To be clear my point wasn’t really “keep Marvin”, it was more along the lines of “if the coaching staff is the only thing that changes don’t expect much better than what you got with Marvin”.

At this point we don’t even know if the new staff is any better than the old and they will need to be much better to raise us up out of the fringe playoff team zone. I hope I am wrong but I don’t think that hiring a new staff to conduct business as usual is going to get it done.

Why is that? Not like Marv was some great coach. Like i said in my original post he sabotaged his own players many times with his poor in game management and never putting his foot down on other teams when we were up. He continually started poorer players over better ones many times, our teams almost always choked in Primetime games and ALWAYS choked in the Playoffs.

Not saying Taylor and company are going to be better but i tend to believe that he and company will be....

I truly believe that coaching was our biggest problem here, not the players.

We will see if this is the case or not soon enough and i cannot wait to see the truth.

(04-02-2019, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Why is that? Not like Marv was some great coach. Like i said in my original post he sabotaged his own players many times with his poor in game management and never putting his foot down on other teams when we were up. He continually started poorer players over better ones many times, our teams almost always choked in Primetime games and ALWAYS choked in the Playoffs.

Not saying Taylor and company are going to be better but i tend to believe that he and company will be....

I truly believe that coaching was our biggest problem here, not the players.

We will see if this is the case or not soon enough and i cannot wait to see the truth.

I think Marvin was a good regular season coach and a poor playoff coach.

There were 2-3 season when we had a really good roster and that was short lived.

I still think the failures of this team go back to the lack of scouts and free agency strategy. Even our best rosters had glaring weaknesses like Center and MLB that I think a lot of teams would address to try and win a SB.

We chose to roll cap space over citing the future. That future would have been the past 3 years.

(04-02-2019, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:  he sabotaged his own players many times with his never putting his foot down on other teams when we were up.

Marvin never lost a single game due to his offense being too conservative with a lead.  But he did lose at least one game by throwing the ball late in the game with a lead when he did not have to.

(04-02-2019, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He continually started poorer players over better ones many times,

No he didn't.  He just did not play the guys the fans felt he should have.  And almost none of those "stars" Marvin supposedly kept on the bench went on to be any good for any other team in the league.

(04-02-2019, 03:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think Marvin was a good regular season coach and a poor playoff coach.

There were 2-3 season when we had a really good roster and that was short lived.

I still think the failures of this team go back to the lack of scouts and free agency strategy. Even our best rosters had glaring weaknesses like Center and MLB that I think a lot of teams would address to try and win a SB.

We chose to roll cap space over citing the future. That future would have been the past 3 years.

Marv was a good regular season coach but that ended in 2015.

I think a truly good coach can coach up players into being something like Belichick does.

We will see, hope Taylor and his guys can do this.

(04-02-2019, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin never lost a single game due to his offense being too conservative with a lead.  But he did lose at least one game by throwing the ball late in the game with a lead when he did not have to.



No he didn't.  He just did not play the guys the fans felt he should have.  And almost none of those "stars" Marvin supposedly kept on the bench went on to be any good for any other team in the league.

You have said this many times and i just disagree with these statements completely.

I, as have many, have watched many games where Marv must of put his nose into the Offense and we played not to lose. If you do not believe that go ahead and live in your own world Fred, the rest of us can see. We never did what the Patriots do at times and that is just run up the score on another team. We have had many different OC's under Marv and this has always been the one constant.

Whether it is passing when you should run or running when you should pass, you do what is working.

You don't play not to lose, it always seemed this was the case with Marvin Lewis.

(04-02-2019, 05:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I, as have many, have watched many games where Marv must of put his nose into the Offense and we played not to lose. If you do not believe that go ahead and live in your own world Fred, the rest of us can see.

I tell you what I can see.  We never lost a single game because of it in 16 years under Marvin.

However in 2010 we lost a game because Marvin (or whoever called the plays) decided we should throw the ball around up by 7 with 2:30 left in a game where our defense had only allowed 7 points.

(04-02-2019, 05:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Whether it is passing when you should run or running when you should pass, you do what is working.

Except when Marvin stuck with what was working you all accused him of being "too predictable".

Can ZT change the culture here? Sure he can.

If all he manages to do is get the team motivated and ready to play for every game so we don't come out listless and flat like we constantly did with Marvin then that is an accomplishment. If he shows he can coach properly during halftime so we stop being sluggish in the third quarter even better. Better game day coaching would mean a lot.

(04-02-2019, 05:27 PM)Joelist Wrote: If all he manages to do is get the team motivated and ready to play for every game so we don't come out listless and flat like we constantly did with Marvin then that is an accomplishment. 

During Marvin's tenure only two teams (NE, GB) had a larger first quarter scoring margin than the Bengals (+260).  One thing we did well was start fast.

(04-02-2019, 05:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Marv was a good regular season coach but that ended in 2015.

I think a truly good coach can coach up players into being something like Belichick does.

We will see, hope Taylor and his guys can do this.


You have said this many times and i just disagree with these statements completely.

I, as have many, have watched many games where Marv must of put his nose into the Offense and we played not to lose. If you do not believe that go ahead and live in your own world Fred, the rest of us can see. We never did what the Patriots do at times and that is just run up the score on another team. We have had many different OC's under Marv and this has always been the one constant.

Whether it is passing when you should run or running when you should pass, you do what is working.

You don't play not to lose, it always seemed this was the case with Marvin Lewis.

Our team was torn apart in free agency starting after 2015 too. Look at all the guys we lost starting then.