(07-07-2019, 04:12 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Coaches have an effect on that stuff as well. Perhaps getting into the game late put ZT and the coaching staff behind in free agency.

Maybe they will make more moves next year, ya never know.

Oh...the coaches seemed to be VERY happy signing guys like Hart/Webb/Wynn, etc.

That's concerning in its own way.

I think they brought in ZT because he'd go with the flow.

(07-07-2019, 10:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I just called them and asked why their first round pick in 2014, Dominique Easley, was a bust and they said coaching just can't fix everybody.

Conversely, they have taken many a scrapheap players and gotten a lot out of them.  As I said, it does happen (to be clear, I did not say it ALWAYS happens) and if people think coaching doesn't matter they are crazy.  

(07-07-2019, 05:51 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Conversely, they have taken many a scrapheap players and gotten a lot out of them.  As I said, it does happen (to be clear, I did not say it ALWAYS happens) and if people think coaching doesn't matter they are crazy.  

A great coaching staff makes your FO look a lot better than it is.  How many Pats OL have left there and fallen flat on their faces?

Or maybe part of it was (as many even outside here stated) that this year the Free Agent crop was particularly bad. Which it was.

As to Ross (the actual topic of the thread), he is a bit of an enigma. The physical tools are there and for some reason he was decent in the redzone last season but at the same time the catch percentage is stupidly low and he had a lot of mind blowingly bad mental lapses out there also. Having seen him out there, he does not play the ball in the air at all and has little awareness of what is happening in the pocket while is he running. Now to be fair the lack of awareness - not seeing when you need to break a route and get open problem has been endemic in Bengal WRs going back to Carson's later days. So that may be coaching and hopefully the new WRs coach has worked heavily on those areas.

(07-07-2019, 05:51 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Conversely, they have taken many a scrapheap players and gotten a lot out of them.  As I said, it does happen (to be clear, I did not say it ALWAYS happens) and if people think coaching doesn't matter they are crazy.  

Coaching definitely matters.

Player attitude and mindset and field awareness also definitely matter.

People who say that Ross had bad coaches before this year are ignoring the huge success Marvin Lewis has had with WRs while HC of the Bengals. In fact, I'm trying to remember if there was a top 3 round WR bust drafted under Marvin and I can't think of one off the top of my head, other than maybe Ross, but I'm not ready to call him a bust-bust at this point.

From what I can tell, Ross' problems are in the field awareness area and he gets lost. But I could be wrong about that, although it does explain his consistent out-of-positionness and inconsistent play.

 

(07-07-2019, 04:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh...the coaches seemed to be VERY happy signing guys like Hart/Webb/Wynn, etc.

That's concerning in its own way.

I think they brought in ZT because he'd go with the flow.

What are they supposed to say tho? 

"We didn't really get anyone that can help the team this year due to the hiring process and the fact we were late to the game. Sorry for signing guys like Hart/Webb/Wynn."

There is a certain public etiquette that coaches and players need to keep. I don't think ZT is VERY HAPPY about the FA signings.

(07-07-2019, 04:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh...the coaches seemed to be VERY happy signing guys like Hart/Webb/Wynn, etc.

That's concerning in its own way.

I think they brought in ZT because he'd go with the flow.

Just curious... What exactly about Zac Taylor gives you the impression he'll just go with the flow?

(07-07-2019, 07:01 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: What are they supposed to say tho? 

"We didn't really get anyone that can help the team this year due to the hiring process and the fact we were late to the game. Sorry for signing guys like Hart/Webb/Wynn."

There is a certain public etiquette that coaches and players need to keep. I don't think ZT is VERY HAPPY about the FA signings.

Therein is the problem. The basically signed him because he'd go with the flow. But, management isn't putting him a position to win.

People can talk about mimicking the Rams all they want...but the Rams have a Top 10 line and the Bengals have a bottom 5 one. That makes a HUGE difference.

(07-07-2019, 07:04 PM)jason Wrote: Just curious... What exactly about Zac Taylor gives you the impression he'll just go with the flow?

Oh...the interview where he praised Mike Brown. The fact that he seems to be happy with the free agent signings including Hart. No coach would be happy with this use of $50+ million. Taylor hiring guys like Turner who likely no other NFL team would hire.

A bunch of things.

They hired a very inexperienced HC. That's a fact.

(07-07-2019, 11:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh...the interview where he praised Mike Brown. The fact that he seems to be happy with the free agent signings including Hart. No coach would be happy with this use of $50+ million. Taylor hiring guys like Turner who likely no other NFL team would hire.

A bunch of things.

They hired a very inexperienced HC. That's a fact.

7 tries for a DC that nobody had ever heard of before he became our DC, lol.  Everything about the Taylor hire/staffing/FA process was a reminder of who really runs this team and what it's philosophy is.  

I got suckered in early.  I thought we'd have Jack Del Rio as a DC playing the role of Wade Phillips.  I thought Mikey would give Taylor a chance to get a few outside FAs or the caliber that Marvin got in 03.  Wynn, Miller and Webb aren't those guys.  They are roster backfill crap and a washed-out guard who got benched in Buffalo on a line almost as bad as ours.  

Taylor seemed exciting when he was hired, but as the process went on he came off more and more as a patsy who's just happy to be one of 32 dudes to have a HC job in the NFL, even if it's on a second rate half-stepping team like this one.  Firing Marvin was a half-measure.  The roster is basically identical.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

(07-07-2019, 11:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Therein is the problem. The basically signed him because he'd go with the flow. But, management isn't putting him a position to win.

People can talk about mimicking the Rams all they want...but the Rams have a Top 10 line and the Bengals have a bottom 5 one. That makes a HUGE difference.

You realize that despite their run heavy, play action based offense, the Bengals only allowed 4 more sacks than the Rams last year?

Move on from this bum already

(07-07-2019, 06:57 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Coaching definitely matters.

Player attitude and mindset and field awareness also definitely matter.

People who say that Ross had bad coaches before this year are ignoring the huge success Marvin Lewis has had with WRs while HC of the Bengals. In fact, I'm trying to remember if there was a top 3 round WR bust drafted under Marvin and I can't think of one off the top of my head, other than maybe Ross, but I'm not ready to call him a bust-bust at this point.

From what I can tell, Ross' problems are in the field awareness area and he gets lost. But I could be wrong about that, although it does explain his consistent out-of-positionness and inconsistent play.

 

To be clear, I didn't say this...but I will say he had poor OCs.  Dalton did as well.  And I believe that when I saw the difference in Dalton with Hue and Gruden vs the others, I can hope that the new coaching staff will use Ross in a number of different ways and he will be more useful.  I still believe Marv had something against Ross and was bitter about not being able to draft Rueben Foster.  At least we didn't get stuck with that giant *******. 

(07-08-2019, 12:00 AM)Whatever Wrote: You realize that despite their run heavy, play action based offense, the Bengals only allowed 4 more sacks than the Rams last year?

Wow - I don't think I've ever ran across someone who tried to argue that we had a good offensive line.

There is WAY more to evaluating a line than sacks. Like pressures. And a bunch of other stats.

(07-08-2019, 08:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: To be clear, I didn't say this...but I will say he had poor OCs.  Dalton did as well.  And I believe that when I saw the difference in Dalton with Hue and Gruden vs the others, I can hope that the new coaching staff will use Ross in a number of different ways and he will be more useful.  I still believe Marv had something against Ross and was bitter about not being able to draft Rueben Foster.  At least we didn't get stuck with that giant *******. 

Usage is one thing and I agree that our coaches weren't that innovative...BUT that doesn't negate the fact that he got a lot of opportunities in Year 2 and had a REALLY low catch rate.

Heck for several games he was the #1 WR.

I fail to see how calling different plays will make him catch it.

(07-08-2019, 08:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: To be clear, I didn't say this...but I will say he had poor OCs.  Dalton did as well.  And I believe that when I saw the difference in Dalton with Hue and Gruden vs the others, I can hope that the new coaching staff will use Ross in a number of different ways and he will be more useful.  I still believe Marv had something against Ross and was bitter about not being able to draft Rueben Foster.  At least we didn't get stuck with that giant *******. 

Ross has only played in one game under Zampese (where he got his only touch in 2017 and fumbled it) and the rest of the games were under Lazor. Lazor was able to get a lot out of other receivers and he was able to design plays to get Ross involved near the end zone, and they did attempt to get Ross the ball on longer plays, but for whatever reason, Ross and the QBs didn't connect on much. Ross gets lost in space.

Lazor, when he had the personnel, had a productive offense in both the passing and running games. Clearly most of the guys starting after all the injuries weren't able to do what the starters had done. The only exceptions really were Mixon and Boyd who continued to produce.


I hope Ross puts something together. But the more he blames others the less likely it is that he'll actually improve much.

(07-08-2019, 01:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Wow - I don't think I've ever ran across someone who tried to argue that we had a good offensive line.

There is WAY more to evaluating a line than sacks. Like pressures. And a bunch of other stats.

The Rams also allowed 2 more QB Hits than the Bengals last year.  

I'm not saying we have a great line at all. You vastly overrate how good the Rams OL is and are trying to push this "you have to have a great OL to run the Rams offense", which is false.  The Rams offense actually helps mask talent deficiency on the OL.  Glenn has been quoted as saying it's a lot easier to play OL in the new offense.  Lapham has said the same thing.  

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/john-ross?id=2558010

John Ross's pre-draft bio.

Interesting that his strength as a red zone target, slants/fades etc are mentioned. Some/many of his weakness's have panned out to be true also.

I really don't know if 'consistent' is his style of play. To me, he is a one trick pony, big play, wanna be, guy. I could see where big physical cornerbacks could give him problems though. So what do you do? Put him in a slot and run him deep?

(07-06-2019, 05:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Nothing wrong with plan to let older players go before they break down and using high draft picks to replace them.  The problem a has been in the execution.  

Even the best teams have high draft picks that flop, but they will use free agency to fill holes when they miss in the draft.  Not every player taken in the first two rounds will be good, but most of them should at least be starters.  In just the last 7 years we have used those picks on guys like Devon Still, Margus Hunt, Tyler Eifert, Jeremy Hill, Jake Fisher, Cedric Ogbuehi, John Ross, and Billy Price.  I still feel pretty good about Price, and we did get one good year each out of Hill and Eifert, but that is 8 players in the first two rounds with very little production at all.  If you are a team that lives by the draft those picks should be what you build your team around.

Great post