(07-26-2019, 10:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I tend to believe that the "management team" also realized that there was something that they weren't doing right, as well.

I don't think they care.  I think they want to operate as they always have and that they needed a new fall guy to put a face on this  season.  Mike Brown saying that his family is as involved as ever in day-to day operations is a red flag to me.  

The family only cares that their brand was damaged in way that it hasn't been since the late 90's in 2018.  The stadium was barren.  They gambled on bringing Marvin back thinking that fans wouldn't care, and that they'd behave as they always have. maybe they would have if the season went well.  It didn't and they didn't.  

The family had to do something.  To them, canning Marv and hiring a young HC who'd say the right things is the cheapest and easiest way for them to continue with "model model" and the Bengal Way.  

Hire Zac.  Let him hire his buds to be assistants like a frat.  Who cares?  No significant free agents to supplement a quickly aging core.  Same guys as last year plus some rookies and John Miller, who isn't special. 

A new staff/coach may not have been comfortable for the family, but it was the easiest way for them to do damage control with the fanbase.  It was cheaper, and the rebranding was over by February.  It's a band aid on a bullet wound.

(07-27-2019, 08:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I doubt he's here to replace Hart. Can he play LT or LG?

Didn't they trot him out at LT toward the end of the 2017 season? I had better things to do with my Sundays by the last few weeks, but I was still around here, and followed them... I just remember them shuffling the line when the season was lost.

(07-27-2019, 10:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The problem with having a mulligan year is a guy like Green will be 32 next year. Atkins and Dunlap are around the same age. Our best players are at the end of their primes.

Cue up the full blown rebuild in 2020 or 21. The team has squandered the core years of Geno/AJ/Dunlap with nothing to show for it. The decline of each is coming. Dalton will end up getting replaced either next year with Tua/Herbert/Fromm or in 2021 with Lawrence.

(07-28-2019, 12:49 AM)jason Wrote: Didn't they trot him out at LT toward the end of the 2017 season? I had better things to do with my Sundays by the last few weeks, but I was still around here, and followed them... I just remember them shuffling the line when the season was lost.

He played Left Tackle in college....

(07-28-2019, 01:40 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Cue up the full blown rebuild in 2020 or 21. The team has squandered the core years of Geno/AJ/Dunlap with nothing to show for it. The decline of each is coming. Dalton will end up getting replaced either next year with Tua/Herbert/Fromm or in 2021 with Lawrence.

I don't know if we're allowed to speak his name outside of the mega thread, but... I find it funny that you mention the core of the team being Geno, Green, and Dunlap. The only player on this team that they haven't been able to win without is Andy Dalton. As much as he's hated on, there is no other player more important to the Bengals success as he is.

(07-28-2019, 11:48 AM)jason Wrote: I don't know if we're allowed to speak his name outside of the mega thread, but... I find it funny that you mention the core of the team being Geno, Green, and Dunlap. The only player on this team that they haven't been able to win without is Andy Dalton. As much as he's hated on, there is no other player more important to the Bengals success as he is.

I think you could say that about most teams in the NFL. Our backups have been particularly bad here.

People thought McCarron was great, but he has trouble even sticking as a backup on other teams.

(07-27-2019, 10:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The problem with having a mulligan year is a guy like Green will be 32 next year. Atkins and Dunlap are around the same age. Our best players are at the end of their primes.

I agree 100%.

Also while my "mulligan theory" may explain why they re-signed Bobby Hart it still does not explain why they gave him several million more than he was worth.

(07-28-2019, 12:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think you could say that about most teams in the NFL. Our backups have been particularly bad here.

People thought McCarron was great, but he has trouble even sticking as a backup on other teams.

Yeah... It's universal. A QB injury is the only injury that will move the meter in Vegas. I just find it amusing that Dalton is so despised by some that he's not even included in some people's list of the core players. It's kinda like this mythical QB some of us think can single handedly will a team to victory with out any weapons, or while the rest of the team does squat.

(07-28-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree 100%.

Also while my "mulligan theory" may explain why they re-signed Bobby Hart it still does not explain why they gave him several million more than he was worth.

Yep. Maybe the scarcity of Tackles on the market was one factor? I think they do value his durability too in that he doesn't miss games.

It also seemed like they scouted him in college again by talking to Jimbo Fisher which is odd to me in that he has 3 years of NFL experience now to look at.

I think there's also some chance that they grade him way different than the rest of the league and the fact that he gave up a bunch of sacks and pressures may not be a huge deal to them too.

Hard to really tell what's in their mind...

Best case scenario would be if they figured out he was mis-cast in the scheme that the Giants and Bengals used for the past 3 years. But, I doubt that's the case.

I do wish they would have allowed ZT to handle free agency IF they didn't.

No matter how you slice it they overpaid...as we both agreed on.

(07-28-2019, 02:58 PM)jason Wrote: Yeah... It's universal. A QB injury is the only injury that will move the meter in Vegas. I just find it amusing that Dalton is so despised by some that he's not even included in some people's list of the core players. It's kinda like this mythical QB some of us think can single handedly will a team to victory with out any weapons, or while the rest of the team does squat.

No doubt he's a core player. And when they do decide to replace him, it's going to probably take a Top 5 pick to do it...and there are no guarantees with that as we know. There will be growing pains too.

Really, when people say rebuilt or not rebuild...to me, going Raiders rebuild where you gut the roster is rare. We could make moves and rebuild without gutting the team IF we make smart picks in the draft and sign a key free agent or two or three. That's, unless we decide to ditch Dalton and draft a new QB. Drafting a new QB and starting him would be a rebuild as it would take atleast 2-3 years IF they pan out. If they don't, you could be looking at a 5-7 year thing.

(07-28-2019, 03:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. Maybe the scarcity of Tackles on the market was one factor? I think they do value his durability too in that he doesn't miss games.

It also seemed like they scouted him in college again by talking to Jimbo Fisher which is odd to me in that he has 3 years of NFL experience now to look at.

I think there's also some chance that they grade him way different than the rest of the league and the fact that he gave up a bunch of sacks and pressures may not be a huge deal to them too.

Hard to really tell what's in their mind...

Best case scenario would be if they figured out he was mis-cast in the scheme that the Giants and Bengals used for the past 3 years. But, I doubt that's the case.

I do wish they would have allowed ZT to handle free agency IF they didn't.

No matter how you slice it they overpaid...as we both agreed on.

Pretty much every OT gets overpaid due to the scarcity of quality players at the position, though.  I mean, Tyler Boyd just got a 4 year/$43 mil extension.  Ja'Waun James, an average starting RT, got 4 years/$52 million this off season.  Unless you get them on a rookie deal or they're past their prime, you're overpaying.  

My guess would be that they felt that the new scheme could cover up some of his weaknesses  and he could be at least a serviceable starter and they didn't want to go into the draft having to take a T in the 1st.

(07-28-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree 100%.

Also while my "mulligan theory" may explain why they re-signed Bobby Hart it still does not explain why they gave him several million more than he was worth.

I'm not so sure with that reasoning for Bobby Hart.  As bad as he was in some aspects of the game, he was equally good in others, as evidenced by your directional blocking for rushing stat.

If I'm guessing (and aren't we all, truly?)  The reasoning for the $7M for Hart was to show that "we believe in you", now go out there and earn that money.

(07-28-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree 100%.

Also while my "mulligan theory" may explain why they re-signed Bobby Hart it still does not explain why they gave him several million more than he was worth.

I'm not so sure with that reasoning for Bobby Hart.  As bad as he was in some aspects of the game, he was equally good in others, as evidenced by your directional blocking for rushing stat.

If I'm guessing (and aren't we all, truly?)  The reasoning for the $7M for Hart was to show that "we believe in you", now go out there and earn that money.

(07-28-2019, 03:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not so sure with that reasoning for Bobby Hart.  As bad as he was in some aspects of the game, he was equally good in others, as evidenced by your directional blocking for rushing stat.

If I'm guessing (and aren't we all, truly?)  The reasoning for the $7M for Hart was to show that "we believe in you", now go out there and earn that money.

If that was the reasoning...we'll pay you like a decent tackle, now go show us you are...then I'm against that. It defies supply/demand. What other team would offer Hart $7 million a year? And they pulled the trigger on signing him quickly once free agency opened.

(07-27-2019, 10:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The problem with having a mulligan year is a guy like Green will be 32 next year. Atkins and Dunlap are around the same age. Our best players are at the end of their primes.

Yeah we needed to show urgency for the sake of AJ Green, Dalton, Atkins and Dunlap. Those guys are all getting on in years. That's why this ho-hum free agency bothered me more than normal. Well that and I wanted to see Zac Taylor start off with a bang.

(07-28-2019, 12:49 AM)jason Wrote: Didn't they trot him out at LT toward the end of the 2017 season? I had better things to do with my Sundays by the last few weeks, but I was still around here, and followed them... I just remember them shuffling the line when the season was lost.

I wanted to say he did, but I can't find anything on him starting any games at left tackle. I did find this snippet from Rotoworld: 

Quote:Entering the league as Cincy's No. 6 overall pick in the '09 draft, this move reeks of a franchise content with mediocrity. Rather than stashing a high-upside unknown, the Bengals recycled a subpar player they initially let walk for his poor performance prior to last season.

They also pointed out that he had disastrous grades in pass pro both with the Cards in 2018 and the Bengals in 2017. Plus run blocker though. I guess that's all that matters.

(07-28-2019, 01:40 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Cue up the full blown rebuild in 2020 or 21.  The team has squandered  the core years of Geno/AJ/Dunlap with nothing to show for it.  The decline of each is coming.   Dalton will end up getting replaced either next year with Tua/Herbert/Fromm or in 2021 with Lawrence.

IF that's the case, we have an automatic 5 years of excuse making on the horizon.

(07-28-2019, 12:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think you could say that about most teams in the NFL. Our backups have been particularly bad here.

People thought McCarron was great, but he has trouble even sticking as a backup on other teams.

Mike Brown wasn't happy taking a mere 2nd round pick for him...that just shows whim among us had the most idiotic view of the guy.

(07-28-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree 100%.

Also while my "mulligan theory" may explain why they re-signed Bobby Hart it still does not explain why they gave him several million more than he was worth.

I sort of think that they got burned so badly by the 2015 tackle duo that they were willing to give a guy like Hart that kind of deal not to walk.  

When Ced/Jake were drafted, they were supposed to set this team up at OT for the foreseeable future.  Instead, they set it back for almost half a decade.  That may have skewed their thinking a bit.  Hart is by almost all accounts an awful player.  While that may be the case, his predecessors were probably demostrably worse and also unavailable in Fisher's case.  

Hart represents relative stability to them.  He's a placeholder until a better option arrives.  This seems even more true with reports of them wanting to draft a second OT this past April.  He's our burden to bear until something better comes along.  Hopefully it happens soon.

Placeholders are only good for a very short time. Until you get in a permanent replacement and longer stability.

(07-26-2019, 07:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They drafted two high quality OL.  It's not their fault that Jonah got injured and Boling chose to retire.  What?  Did you expect them to just spend the entire draft on OL, and ignore good players available at other positions?

And, before anyone brings up any of the grossly overpaid guys that we didn't get in FA, just stop.  We have already done well in extending Tyler Boyd, and I fully expect AJ Green to get re-upped as well.  So, the team seems to have a plan for it's funds.

Cordy Glenn isn't "great" by any stretch, but he'll be "fine" for this season.  Andre Smith isn't who we want starting, but he's damn good insurance if Glenn or Hart get injured.  Then, you have to factor that other guys will get cut in camp.  This roster isn't anywhere near complete.

I'm actually in agreement with you. I was just trying to think what the argument would be for those who are mad about Andre Smith being back.
In fact, I was someone who said Andre should have been brought back in the Spring because I thought he would be an adequate backup for RT.

For those wondering though, the Bengals do still have ~$19 mill in cap space remaining after the Boyd deal.
They could still give good money to a cap casualty cut from another team as well as give Green an extension.

(07-29-2019, 02:04 AM)samhain Wrote: I sort of think that they got burned so badly by the 2015 tackle duo that they were willing to give a guy like Hart that kind of deal not to walk.  

When Ced/Jake were drafted, they were supposed to set this team up at OT for the foreseeable future.  Instead, they set it back for almost half a decade.  That may have skewed their thinking a bit.  Hart is by almost all accounts an awful player.  While that may be the case, his predecessors were probably demostrably worse and also unavailable in Fisher's case.  

Hart represents relative stability to them.  He's a placeholder until a better option arrives.  This seems even more true with reports of them wanting to draft a second OT this past April.  He's our burden to bear until something better comes along.  Hopefully it happens soon.

Or they realize that we'll likely be rebuilding for a few years and Hart is young. We just had too many holes to fill in one offseason.