(08-16-2019, 08:39 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Stock Up:  Ryan Finley, Tristan Vizcaino, Billy Price, Cordy Glenn, Stanley Morgan (for his superb blocking downfield), Michael Jordan, Alex Erickson, Carlos Dunlap.

Stock Down:  Andy Dalton*, Randy Bullock, Shawn Williams, CJ Uzomah, Bobby Hart.

Sell Now:  Jeff Driskel.

*It pains me to put Andy Dalton on the “down” list but he did not play well last night.  I think the world of him but if we’re taking last night as a “snapshot” then I must be brutally honest and put Andy on the naughty list.

I put him on my down list in my OP as well. AD did not have a good night.

(08-16-2019, 10:06 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Not attacking your post but I honestly have now idea how pff works lol or if it’s accurate at assessing good football players. Every time we talk about a player on our defense there studs according to PFF. You would think we had the 85 Bears defense last season even tho they were good awful. Billings is a good NT, Vigil who I think is way overrated had a ton of tackles for loss and was rated a top outside backer, Kirkpatrick rated out as one of the best cb’s. Dennard rated out good in the slot. Williams was good, Hubbard had 6 sacks. Preston Browns is a stud when healthy. Then you have the actually guys like Bates, Jackson III , Lawson, Geno and Dunlap who are actually good and very talented in my opinion based of my eye test not PFF. Does PFF take in account what a players assignment should be and if it’s executed ?

It sounds like some misinformation has been spread to you. Vigil was rated a 59, which grades out as mediocre. Kirkpatrick graded out at 60, which is the same average/mediocre status. Brown was a 55, which is bordering on below average/replacement level.

They do try to take into account what the player should be doing, but they don't have access to every play call. If they aren't sure if a player messed up or if it was just an assignment, they give the player a neutral grade for that play. They do have access to teams and communicate with them, but I believe that it is more for draft purposes.

It is a good tool and is fairly accurate for some of their grades (lineman, for instance) but isn't perfect.

(08-16-2019, 09:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Stock Up:

Hard to go up higher than it was after week 1, but Finley is proving he is our #2.

Auden Tate.  They weren't staggering stats, but for those of you that listened and couldn't watch, he made a catch that was WAY behind him, and might have been an easy pick.  He reached back across his body and just snatched it out of the air.  He has amazing hands.  Amazing.  He absolutely needs to be on this team and he needs to play.  Call him a hybrid TE/WR but always line him up outside and you might get by only carrying three other TEs.  This kid is special and I love that he took the time off to work on his strength and conditioning.  

Darius Phillips.  Overcame a horrible week 1 and looked really good in the return game and coverage as well.

Jordan Willis.  Looked strong coming off the edge, had a nice sack/fumble of Haskins.  It was against #2s though.

Stock Down:  

Yes, it is only the preseason, but Shawn Williams had better step up his game or he will be targeted all day by opposing QBs.

Uzomah.   Shouldn't be starting over Sample.  Not as good a blocker and unreliable hands.  Sample is a fluid catcher of the ball.  Never going to run by guys like Eifert, but can move the chains.  

Trayveon Williams.  Being injured is not his fault, but I haven't really seen the explosiveness I kept hearing about at camp.

I believe we don't have a starting TE. I can see (if they all stay healthy), each having 30 to 40% of the TE Snaps. I think the OC and ZAC will play situational TE sets. I am also stoked Casey is the TE coach, he played under Kubiak who used TE's wisely.

(08-16-2019, 10:27 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: It sounds like some misinformation has been spread to you. Vigil was rated a 59, which grades out as mediocre. Kirkpatrick graded out at 60, which is the same average/mediocre status. Brown was a 55, which is bordering on below average/replacement level.

They do try to take into account what the player should be doing, but they don't have access to every play call. If they aren't sure if a player messed up or if it was just an assignment, they give the player a neutral grade for that play. They do have access to teams and communicate with them, but I believe that it is more for draft purposes.

It is a good tool and is fairly accurate for some of their grades (lineman, for instance) but isn't perfect.

Thanks for the info heard some of the information in here. With Kirkpatrick and Vigil. I know there were a ton of blow assignments this season that’s why I was asking makes sense.

(08-16-2019, 09:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: He was in maybe one of the first series...he was chasing AP like the rest of them after Williams whiffed on the tackle.  

At first i thought that was WJ3, but it was actually Dennard.

(08-16-2019, 09:26 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: He played. He was chasing Peterson on that big run.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8V4dT4NLBwk

Around the 1:22 mark he comes in.

Yep. I was wrong on my previous post. I should have gotten more sleep last night...

(08-16-2019, 09:28 AM)jj22 Wrote: It was a bad night for Dalton and the first string Offense.

But folks claimed last weeks game was a bad night for Dalton when he went 7-9 for 80 yards. So clearly the guy can't win either way. But for Bengals fans, that's why you appreciate the Dalton that showed up last week instead of slamming that Dalton as well.

Stock up
Ellis
Willis's
Finley
Pratt
Defense
Simmons
Sample
Jordan Brown

Stock Down
Run blocking
Malone
Shawn Williams
Webb (was always trailing his receivers).

Link to anyone saying last weeks game was bad for Dalton?

(08-16-2019, 10:25 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Fair enough, now we know your goal is for the team to lose in 2019 and work on future development which is fine.

Goal? I cannot control what happens to the Bengals outside of cheering for them at games so, I don't have goals for the Bengals. Who sets goals that they have no influence over? That makes no sense. I want them get better and/or be interesting. Blandy Dullton is NOT interesting and he is NOT getting better.

I didn't say I wanted the Bengals to lose at all. I indicated I would be patient with Finley and this new staff if they took some lumps or had growing pains trying to improve vs status quo AD at QB. I also don't think playing Finley would be appreciably worse than playing Dalton and, possibly, even better towards the end of the season and moving forward.

Those wanting to stick with Dalton with Finley on the roster, yourself included, seem to have the mindset of a certain loser who happens to be a former Bengals ex-coach. No, not Marvin. I'm talking about Hue Jackson. AD supporters, at this point, are no different and have loser mentalities. Hue was adamant about starting and sticking with Tyrod Taylor because he wanted to play it safe to save his job by being just mediocre enough to survive with a few wins and hope for lightening in a bottle to be good. Meanwhile, a brighter future was sitting there starring him in the face. But, Baker Mayfield represented a risk into the unknown, so Hue Jackson sat on his hands.

Losers think like that. Wishers think like that. Fanboys think like that. Mike Brown thinks like that. Period.

The Bengals aren't doing jack rabbit with AD at QB this season and to trot him out there is a waste of valuable time. And that is time Finley could be using to develop into something better than AD. At worse.... at worse he looks like he would be the same right NOW.... only cheaper over the next 4 seasons.

Right now, after the last two games of seeing Finley play extensively, I would SPRINT to a fax machine to validate a trade of AD and a 4th to the Skins for Trent Williams and either Colt McCoy or Case Keenum. The money works, the players benefit everyone, and the Bengals can move onward and upward into a brighter future.

Up
Finley(probably the guy I’ve been most impressed with)
Pratt
Tate
Sample
Andrew Brown
Both Willis guys
That kicker whose name I can’t really spell...rhymes with Volcano
Morgan

Down
Dalton
Bullock
Williams

(08-16-2019, 11:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Goal? I cannot control what happens to the Bengals outside of cheering for them at games so, I don't have goals for the Bengals. Who sets goals that they have no influence over? That makes no sense. I want them get better and/or be interesting. Blandy Dullton is NOT interesting and he is NOT getting better.

I didn't say I wanted the Bengals to lose at all. I indicated I would be patient with Finley and this new staff if they took some lumps or had growing pains trying to improve vs status quo AD at QB. I also don't think playing Finley would be appreciably worse than playing Dalton and, possibly, even better towards the end of the season and moving forward.

Those wanting to stick with Dalton with Finley on the roster, yourself included, seem to have the mindset of a certain loser who happens to be a former Bengals ex-coach. No, not Marvin. I'm talking about Hue Jackson. AD supporters, at this point, are no different and have loser mentalities. Hue was adamant about starting and sticking with Tyrod Taylor because he wanted to play it safe to save his job by being just mediocre enough to survive with a few wins and hope for lightening in a bottle to be good. Meanwhile, a brighter future was sitting there starring him in the face. But, Baker Mayfield represented a risk into the unknown, so Hue Jackson sat on his hands.

Losers think like that. Wishers think like that. Fanboys think like that. Mike Brown thinks like that. Period.

The Bengals aren't doing jack rabbit with AD at QB this season and to trot him out there is a waste of valuable time. And that is time Finley could be using to develop into something better than AD. At worse.... at worse he looks like he would be the same right NOW.... only cheaper over the next 4 seasons.

Right now, after the last two games of seeing Finley play extensively, I would SPRINT to a fax machine to validate a trade of AD and a 4th to the Skins for Trent Williams and either Colt McCoy or Case Keenum. The money works, the players benefit everyone, and the Bengals can move onward and upward into a brighter future.

(08-16-2019, 08:38 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: It's pre season for officials too. listening on radio we were  gifted a bs opi. if not called we may have lost

Which OPI are you talking about? The one threw on Willis? I'm still scratching my head on that one...... I'd say Shawn Hochuli and his crew sucked big lastnight. 

(08-16-2019, 11:41 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Which OPI are you talking about? The one threw on Willis? I'm still scratching my head on that one...... I'd say Shawn Hochuli and his crew sucked big lastnight. 

They always do. Set the NFL record for most penalties in a season last year.

(08-16-2019, 11:37 AM)Au165 Wrote:

Which part do you disagree with, specifically?

Maybe it's too tough to type with all of your fingers crossed wishing that year 9 is when the light comes on for AD? Uncross your eyes, though, champ. I hear that doesn't work, either. 

(08-16-2019, 11:41 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Which OPI are you talking about? The one threw on Willis? I'm still scratching my head on that one...... I'd say Shawn Hochuli and his crew sucked big lastnight. 

it was on the Redskins said their receiver pushed off Hoard and Lapham both said it should have been on us if not no call at all. That's why Gruden challenged it. Smart challenge by Zach as well late. It's nice having a coach on the sidelines who actually gets it as far as game management. Having Zach instead of Marvin on the sidelines may add 5 years too my life

(08-16-2019, 09:50 AM)PDub80 Wrote:  2015 was lightening in a bottle. An anomaly. How can fans not accept that and move on?

In my opinion it is better to have a QB who has PROVEN he can play that well over a QB who we have no idea can play that well.

I know 2015 really sticks in your craw, but you cannot pretend that it never happened.

(08-16-2019, 11:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Goal? I cannot control what happens to the Bengals outside of cheering for them at games so, I don't have goals for the Bengals. Who sets goals that they have no influence over? That makes no sense. I want them get better and/or be interesting. Blandy Dullton is NOT interesting and he is NOT getting better.

I didn't say I wanted the Bengals to lose at all. I indicated I would be patient with Finley and this new staff if they took some lumps or had growing pains trying to improve vs status quo AD at QB. I also don't think playing Finley would be appreciably worse than playing Dalton and, possibly, even better towards the end of the season and moving forward.

Those wanting to stick with Dalton with Finley on the roster, yourself included, seem to have the mindset of a certain loser who happens to be a former Bengals ex-coach. No, not Marvin. I'm talking about Hue Jackson. AD supporters, at this point, are no different and have loser mentalities. Hue was adamant about starting and sticking with Tyrod Taylor because he wanted to play it safe to save his job by being just mediocre enough to survive with a few wins and hope for lightening in a bottle to be good. Meanwhile, a brighter future was sitting there starring him in the face. But, Baker Mayfield represented a risk into the unknown, so Hue Jackson sat on his hands.

Losers think like that. Wishers think like that. Fanboys think like that. Mike Brown thinks like that. Period.

The Bengals aren't doing jack rabbit with AD at QB this season and to trot him out there is a waste of valuable time. And that is time Finley could be using to develop into something better than AD. At worse.... at worse he looks like he would be the same right NOW.... only cheaper over the next 4 seasons.

Right now, after the last two games of seeing Finley play extensively, I would SPRINT to a fax machine to validate a trade of AD and a 4th to the Skins for Trent Williams and either Colt McCoy or Case Keenum. The money works, the players benefit everyone, and the Bengals can move onward and upward into a brighter future.

Why escalate it to a personal attack. Loser? We can compare resumes if you like, but regardless I will not stoop to judging you and calling you names.

As I stated, it is OK to have different views. I disagree with you and think AD is our best option on this roster to win the next 2 years, I have no interest in being patient to win in 2021, I want to win now.

Have a blessed day.

(08-16-2019, 11:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Right now, after the last two games of seeing Finley play extensively, I would SPRINT to a fax machine to validate a trade of AD and a 4th to the Skins for Trent Williams and either Colt McCoy or Case Keenum. The money works, the players benefit everyone, and the Bengals can move onward and upward into a brighter future.

Right, that is exactly how all of the great minds in the NFL work.  If a 4th round QB looks decent in limited action against a #2 defense you immediately blow up your team to build around him.

(08-16-2019, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Which part do you disagree with, specifically?

Maybe it's too tough to type with all of your fingers crossed wishing that year 9 is when the light comes on for AD? Uncross your eyes, though, champ. I hear that doesn't work, either. 

The part where you compare the Browns with the 1st overall pick on the bench to the Bengals with a 4th round QB who has played in two preseason games against back ups, that was really funny. Then the part where you went on an emotional outburst about "loser" behavior, and so on. While it was worth a laugh it provides no useful football context other than you really want anyone else to play QB for this team and if people don't agree with you they know nothing.

(08-16-2019, 12:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right, that is exactly how all of the great minds in the NFL work.  If a 4th round QB looks decent in limited action against a #2 defense you immediately blow up your team to build around him.

I mean the great AJ McCaron did too! He is on his way to Canton right now as we speak.

(08-16-2019, 11:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Goal? I cannot control what happens to the Bengals outside of cheering for them at games so, I don't have goals for the Bengals. Who sets goals that they have no influence over? That makes no sense. I want them get better and/or be interesting. Blandy Dullton is NOT interesting and he is NOT getting better.

I didn't say I wanted the Bengals to lose at all. I indicated I would be patient with Finley and this new staff if they took some lumps or had growing pains trying to improve vs status quo AD at QB. I also don't think playing Finley would be appreciably worse than playing Dalton and, possibly, even better towards the end of the season and moving forward.

Those wanting to stick with Dalton with Finley on the roster, yourself included, seem to have the mindset of a certain loser who happens to be a former Bengals ex-coach. No, not Marvin. I'm talking about Hue Jackson. AD supporters, at this point, are no different and have loser mentalities. Hue was adamant about starting and sticking with Tyrod Taylor because he wanted to play it safe to save his job by being just mediocre enough to survive with a few wins and hope for lightening in a bottle to be good. Meanwhile, a brighter future was sitting there starring him in the face. But, Baker Mayfield represented a risk into the unknown, so Hue Jackson sat on his hands.

Losers think like that. Wishers think like that. Fanboys think like that. Mike Brown thinks like that. Period.

The Bengals aren't doing jack rabbit with AD at QB this season and to trot him out there is a waste of valuable time. And that is time Finley could be using to develop into something better than AD. At worse.... at worse he looks like he would be the same right NOW.... only cheaper over the next 4 seasons.

Right now, after the last two games of seeing Finley play extensively, I would SPRINT to a fax machine to validate a trade of AD and a 4th to the Skins for Trent Williams and either Colt McCoy or Case Keenum. The money works, the players benefit everyone, and the Bengals can move onward and upward into a brighter future.

Pdub I get what you're saying....to a degree

But to say we should cut AD now and make Finley the starter is putting the cart waaaayy in front of the horse ! To say the least

Do you know how many training camp, preseason heroes have flamed out in real games quicker than you can say next man up ? I'm as high on Finley as anyone but we have way to small a sample size in preseason games to jump off this cliff, now.

I've been a fairly big Dalton supporter, there's been so many things going on during his time here and I'm not getting into that here. However I'm in no way opposed to moving on from Dalton if he stinks it up this season. But in the same breath I really wanna see what he does with ZT at the helm, new scheme, and so on.

Bottom line it's just to early to proclaim Finley is the man and roll that big a dice !