(08-23-2019, 04:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: It's all about the approach. Yes, I'd approach coaching like I do life experiences. All good coaches pull from experience. Personal or otherwise. No shame here.

You only have to quit on the team once.

I'll rather lose with players who want to be here, then have star players on the team threaten to quit every time I turn around.

I can completely understand the analogy of using communication in relationships to team/player relations.  Being in a relationship is being part of a team.  Teams have a goal of winning, while couples in relationships have a goal of happiness.  it's really not at all "out in Left field" to use that sort of analogy.

(08-23-2019, 04:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm sorry, but I've been getting frustrated by you because I don't think you notice or understand that the words you use have a different interpretation than maybe the way you are intending. 

Case in point - The fact you don't understand or notice that begging has a different connotation than talking to someone is concerning to me. 

Do you not care if your comments are misinterpreted?

Not really.

I said begged and meant begged. I always say what I mean. Now you have the right to disagree, but I meant what I said.

(08-23-2019, 06:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: Not really.

I said begged and meant begged. I always say what I mean. Now you have the right to disagree, but I meant what I said.

We know exactly what you meant.  

We were just pointing out that you made it up, and there is nothing to support your claim.

(08-23-2019, 04:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You said "begged him back."
Talking to someone and "begging them back" or even "talking them into returning" are different things.

FYI see my initial post (170) about ZT reaching out to him. I said exactly what Fred said. Fred just swung and missed.

But I've been throwing fast balls by him for years now.

(08-23-2019, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We know exactly what you meant.  

We were just pointing out that you made it up, and there is nothing to support your claim.

Except for the fact all it took was a call for Westerman to suddenly be out of retirement.

Sounds like a fit to me.

Like he was waiting by the car for someone to run out and stop him from leaving.

(08-23-2019, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you call making three straight posts "moving on".

It is becoming very clear why all those ex-girlfriends ran out on you.

Oh I'll always respond to people. That's never changed.

What I won't do is delete post after striking out looking.

(08-23-2019, 05:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I can completely understand the analogy of using communication in relationships to team/player relations.  Being in a relationship is being part of a team.  Teams have a goal of winning, while couples in relationships have a goal of happiness.  it's really not at all "out in Left field" to use that sort of analogy.

A romantic relationship involves two equals negotiating rules of engagement.  Neither holds more power than the other, and that is the basis for most disagreements.

That is nothing like the relationship between a coach and player or any boss and his employee.  In these situations one side holds much more power.  It is a totally different dynamic with different set of rules.

(08-23-2019, 06:26 PM)jj22 Wrote: Except for the fact all it took was a call for Westerman to suddenly be out of retirement.

Sounds like a fit to me.

And again you are just making stuff up out of thin air.

Taylor spoke to Westerman over last weekend. Westerman did not return until Wednesday.

You have no clue what is going on.

(08-23-2019, 06:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: What I won't do is delete post after striking out looking.

I have no clue what you are talking about, but it sounds smarter than doubling down after proving you don't know what you are talking about.

(08-23-2019, 06:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And again you are just making stuff up out of thin air.

Taylor spoke to Westerman over last weekend.  Westerman did not return until Wednesday.

You have no clue what is going on.

And, neither do you..   My point is, none of knows exactly what transpired, the information released by the team is very limited.  We all use our imaginations to create our own scenario of what might have went down.  Just because you don't like one fan's interpretation of the situation, does not mean that his take on it is any lessor or greater than any one else's.

There is absolutely no need to initiate, and then perpetuate, dialogue with a member that you obviously do not agree with, for the purpose of making him appear "wrong" for having his own opinion.  

And, that message goes for all of us.  Let's be real for a moment, it's going to be a rough season for Bengal fans.  There's absolutely no need for fans of the same team to start turning on one another.  Personally, I expect the team to get off to a disappointing start, and then begin building and growing, as the season rolls along.  By the end of the season, this entire "Westerman considering retirement" saga will be but just a blip on all of our memory banks..

The line sucks but if Westerman doesn’t wanna be here then f him we don’t need guys who need convinced or talked into playing if he’s questioning retiring that’s a red flag and I’d be cool letting him go

I do not understand why this thread has become toxic. I started this thread because Westerman had promise when drafted. I never understood what was holding him back. He was considered a "steal" in the 5th round and compared to Alex Mack...
For those that do not remember, here is his draft profile

OVERVIEW
Westerman was a top national recruit who attended Auburn for his first two years, losing most of his redshirt freshman season due to injury before deciding to return to his home state of Arizona to finish his career. He excelled last fall in his first season as a starter for the Sun Devils, earning honorable mention All-Pac-12 notice for his stout play and mobility at left guard. Westerman's play his senior campaign did not disappoint, as his attitude, stoutness, mobility, and solid technique made him a second-team all-conference performer.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS Outstanding athleticism and movement skills. Is quick off the snap and able to beat defenders to the spot. Can get to difficult cross­-face blocks using timing, technique and footwork. At his best when on the move. When pulling or climbing to second level, has a terrific connect rate against moving targets in space. True technician. Plays with desired balance and base and his feet rarely stop chopping and working after contact. Approaches target with bend and rolls hips up under him after contact. Has massive bear paws for hands and is a weight ­room freak daddy. Has hand placement and upper body strength to lockout pass rushers if he gets extension first. Father was a three-year starter at guard for Arizona State. Should test off the charts at the combine.
WEAKNESSES While he moves stacks of weights with ease, his play strength doesn't always match that when matched up against interior power players. Short yardage push will not be an NFL strength. May need more mass on his frame to handle NFL defensive tackles. When asked to base block, becomes more of a stalemate blocker than block­-winner. Could use a more authoritative punch in pass protection. I question whether he can effectively re­direct interior pass rushers once they get into the edge on him.
DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 2 or 3
NFL COMPARISON Alex Mack
BOTTOM LINE Quick-­twitch, athletic guard who comes from a football family and has been working on his strength and athleticism from a young age. Offensive line coaches will appreciate Westerman's technical savvy and zone scheme teams will covet his fluidity and blocking ability on the move. A move to center is not out of the question thanks to his body type and quickness and his draft stock may be helped by a potential ability to offer roster depth at several offensive line positions.

I do not know what Westerman is dealing with at the moment. It could be family issues, mental health issues, motivation issues. We simply do not know. But for now he is a Bengal. I hope he can play OT for goodness sake.

(08-21-2019, 06:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Over the past few days, we have all speculated and hypothesized on various scenarios for reasons that Westerman might contemplate retirement. Most of those scenarios were kind to Westerman, with the assumption that something must be happening with his family, he must be going through some sort of mental issues, etc. Many people speculated many "made up" situations, people discussed and debated.

Now, one fan suggests that perhaps it was a stunt, or that Westerman is just soft, and everybody attacks? Where did the friendly debate and hospitable discussion go? It was just another fan giving his take on the matter. No need to get a vigilante mob together, as if he stole AJ Green's car, with his kids inside..

Relax everyone, just be patient, hope for the best, despite the crappy season that appears to be imminent..

(08-23-2019, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, neither do you..   My point is, none of knows exactly what transpired, the information released by the team is very limited.  We all use our imaginations to create our own scenario of what might have went down.  Just because you don't like one fan's interpretation of the situation, does not mean that his take on it is any lessor or greater than any one else's.

There is absolutely no need to initiate, and then perpetuate, dialogue with a member that you obviously do not agree with, for the purpose of making him appear "wrong" for having his own opinion.  

And, that message goes for all of us.  Let's be real for a moment, it's going to be a rough season for Bengal fans.  There's absolutely no need for fans of the same team to start turning on one another.  Personally, I expect the team to get off to a disappointing start, and then begin building and growing, as the season rolls along.  By the end of the season, this entire "Westerman considering retirement" saga will be but just a blip on all of our memory banks..

These!!!

(08-22-2019, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: ...and an intense offensive line coach...

And I could see wanting to step away for 5 days.

Well, if a certain intense offensive line coach were a contributing factor, then that would be a real problem for the HC and the organization.....

Of course, that would depend on exactly what was said and whether the said coach utilized other players ----- never mind.

As has been said previously, it's all conjecture and speculation.

But your comment made me pause.

(08-23-2019, 06:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A romantic relationship involves two equals negotiating rules of engagement.  Neither holds more power than the other, and that is the basis for most disagreements.

That is nothing like the relationship between a coach and player or any boss and his employee.  In these situations one side holds much more power.  It is a totally different dynamic with different set of rules.

Don't tell that to Odell and the Giants....

Or Antonio Brown and the steelers...

And Carson Palmer and the Bengals!!!  

(08-23-2019, 07:07 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I do not understand why this thread has become toxic.  I started this thread because Westerman had promise when drafted.  I never understood what was holding him back.  He was considered a "steal"  in the 5th round and compared to Alex Mack...
For those that do not remember, here is his draft profile

OVERVIEW
Westerman was a top national recruit who attended Auburn for his first two years, losing most of his redshirt freshman season due to injury before deciding to return to his home state of Arizona to finish his career. He excelled last fall in his first season as a starter for the Sun Devils, earning honorable mention All-Pac-12 notice for his stout play and mobility at left guard. Westerman's play his senior campaign did not disappoint, as his attitude, stoutness, mobility, and solid technique made him a second-team all-conference performer.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS Outstanding athleticism and movement skills. Is quick off the snap and able to beat defenders to the spot. Can get to difficult cross­-face blocks using timing, technique and footwork. At his best when on the move. When pulling or climbing to second level, has a terrific connect rate against moving targets in space. True technician. Plays with desired balance and base and his feet rarely stop chopping and working after contact. Approaches target with bend and rolls hips up under him after contact. Has massive bear paws for hands and is a weight ­room freak daddy. Has hand placement and upper body strength to lockout pass rushers if he gets extension first. Father was a three-year starter at guard for Arizona State. Should test off the charts at the combine.
WEAKNESSES While he moves stacks of weights with ease, his play strength doesn't always match that when matched up against interior power players. Short yardage push will not be an NFL strength. May need more mass on his frame to handle NFL defensive tackles. When asked to base block, becomes more of a stalemate blocker than block­-winner. Could use a more authoritative punch in pass protection. I question whether he can effectively re­direct interior pass rushers once they get into the edge on him.
DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 2 or 3
NFL COMPARISON Alex Mack
BOTTOM LINE Quick-­twitch, athletic guard who comes from a football family and has been working on his strength and athleticism from a young age. Offensive line coaches will appreciate Westerman's technical savvy and zone scheme teams will covet his fluidity and blocking ability on the move. A move to center is not out of the question thanks to his body type and quickness and his draft stock may be helped by a potential ability to offer roster depth at several offensive line positions.

I do not know what Westerman is dealing with at the moment.  It could be family issues, mental health issues, motivation issues.  We simply do not know.  But for now he is a Bengal.  I hope he can play OT for goodness sake.

I think the bottom line is we are going to see more and more of this. As the medical field becomes more and more knowledgeable about CTE, and legends like Jim Brown are show going to the podium to announce a draft pick with the aid of a walker, there will be more players who make a nice amount of money and think about getting out healthy. If they have a decent degree, or even not, as long as they have smart investment counselors, they can play golf the rest of their life instead of being in pain. It's a lot to think about for someone at that stage.

(08-23-2019, 06:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: FYI see my initial post (170) about ZT reaching out to him. I said exactly what Fred said. Fred just swung and missed.

But I've been throwing fast balls by him for years now.

I read your post (170). You said...

Quote:it's long been stated that ZT had to reach out to him to talk him into returning to the team. That's why he came back. Funny, that's all it took.

There is NOTHING in that that confirms Zac Taylor begged him back. Begging is when someone says something along the lines of, "Please come back! We need you!" There has been nothing confirmed by Zac Taylor or anyone else of what was said, just that Zac Taylor had a conversation with Westerman.


Could you provide any proof that Taylor "begged" or even asked Westerman to come back?
The only evidence I've seen regarding Taylor speaking to Westerman at all was this...

Jay Morrison Wrote:Zac Taylor said he has talked to Westerman a couple of times since the team placed him the Exempt/Left Squad list on Friday. Zac did not have an updated. Westerman has until 4 p.m. Wednesday to decide.

https://twitter.com/JayMorrisonATH/status/1163540203413352453?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1163540203413352453&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cincyjungle.com%2F2019%2F8%2F19%2F20812993%2Fzac-taylor-christian-westerman-bengals-news

(08-23-2019, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, neither do you..   My point is, none of knows exactly what transpired, the information released by the team is very limited.  We all use our imaginations to create our own scenario of what might have went down.  Just because you don't like one fan's interpretation of the situation, does not mean that his take on it is any lessor or greater than any one else's.

There is absolutely no need to initiate, and then perpetuate, dialogue with a member that you obviously do not agree with, for the purpose of making him appear "wrong" for having his own opinion.  

And, that message goes for all of us.  Let's be real for a moment, it's going to be a rough season for Bengal fans.  There's absolutely no need for fans of the same team to start turning on one another.  Personally, I expect the team to get off to a disappointing start, and then begin building and growing, as the season rolls along.  By the end of the season, this entire "Westerman considering retirement" saga will be but just a blip on all of our memory banks..

Sunset, the reason for the pushback is because there is claim of truth without any evidence to support those claims. When some of us get into debates, we often like to provide our own sources of information (right or wrong) and will push the opposition to do the same.

If the wording was "I believe" or "I feel" it probably wouldn't be met with as much criticism because it would be evident it was an opinion rather than fact.

For people who have no clue what is going on in this young man's life, certain people are being awful judgmental.

(08-25-2019, 10:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think the bottom line is we are going to see more and more of this. As the medical field becomes more and more knowledgeable about CTE, and legends like Jim Brown are show going to the podium to announce a draft pick with the aid of a walker, there will be more players who make a nice amount of money and think about getting out healthy. If they have a decent degree, or even not, as long as they have smart investment counselors, they can play golf the rest of their life instead of being in pain. It's a lot to think about for someone at that stage.

I guess the lack of information in this case and Westerman's sudden request for leave has many fans wondering why.  Not quite as bad, however, to Luck's sudden announcement.  ZT stated that Perkins retirement and Westerman's considerations for retirement were unrelated but the timing and proximity for both players announcements raises suspicion.  

I hope Westerman's physical and mental health is sound.   If it is an issue of motivation, or the fact he cannot crack the starting line-up, then sometimes an athlete has the choice to walk away or keep grinding.