(09-21-2019, 04:47 PM)TKUHL Wrote: I was thinking if Taylor’s Bengals go 0-16 would it change the way you view Marvin as a HC. May not be fair since Taylor has a different staff but many of the key players are the same. I don’t think Marvin is with any team at the moment but maybe Marvin will actually benefit from a winless season. I’ve been as critical as anyone wanting Marvin gone years ago. In no way what so ever am I suggesting we bring him back, or if we are better with or without Marvin. I know there are a few here that think any kind of signification change with this organization will automatically damn us back to the 90’s. I’m Just curious what everyone thinks.

It won't change how I think about Marvin, but I can see that it was all Marvin that made this a good team for awhile in spite of Mike Brown.

The front office clearly has reverted to its 90s roots when Mike Brown took over and drove the franchise into the dirt.

Taylor going 0-7 so far just tells me that Marvin was a better coach than ZT.

The question now is, "how long will the Bengals hang onto ZT to try and prove they were right about hiring him despite his bad resume?"

If we go back to Mike Brown's practices of the 90s, we could be looking at several years of ZT sucking ass before he's finally let go.

 

(10-22-2019, 01:24 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It won't change how I think about Marvin, but I can see that it was all Marvin that made this a good team for awhile in spite of Mike Brown.

The front office clearly has reverted to its 90s roots when Mike Brown took over and drove the franchise into the dirt.

Taylor going 0-7 so far just tells me that Marvin was a better coach than ZT.

The question now is, "how long will the Bengals hang onto ZT to try and prove they were right about hiring him despite his bad resume?"

If we go back to Mike Brown's practices of the 90s, we could be looking at several years of ZT sucking ass before he's finally let go.

 

That's right in Mike's wheelhouse: he's stubborn and doesn't like to pay for something twice (i.e. firing a HC under contract, Mike Shula's firing 23 years ago aside.).   He'll serve out (appropriate words if there ever were any) his contract before we even consider moving on.  Hell, if we beat the Dolphins and Browns, Mike may announce an extension the next day.

Let me fix the thread title for you. "When Taylor fails to win a single game!"

In 2003, first-time HC Marvin Lewis took a 2-14 team (worst in the league) to an 8-8 team. He did that with his newly drafted 1st overall pick on the bench all that year.

Zac Taylor has taken a 6-10 team to be 0-7 so far and will likely result in double-digit losses again.

Marvin was never a bad coach. He was a good coach. He just had his limitations.
So far, Taylor is showing he is a terrible coach.

(09-22-2019, 12:44 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Man, you all must have LOVED the 90's!

Stockholm Syndrome. You all long for the 90's! Getting all those Top 5 picks REALLY helped us build a dynasty.

Let me clue you in on something - A 3-13 team is more than 1 good top pick away from contending. They are about 7-10 starters away.

This current Bengals team is probably 5-7 quality starters away.

We play the Bills, Steelers, and Cardinals. Those teams are bad and we will win some of those games. Probably atleast 1. Maybe 2. When we do, the pendulum will shift and fans will be talking playoffs.

Umm, no we won't.

This team and organization is worse without Marvin.

Now I said worse. It can be better if we had the correct HC and GM, but at this point it is worst.

Welcome to worse than the 90's.

Free agency started to bloom in the 2000's. Only garbage players will want to come to this garbage organization.

High draft picks will leave as fast as they can.

Taylor doesn't have the reputation to draw free agents and unfortunately, the organization will only hire HC's on the cheap.

HC's that have no reputation and cannot draw flies.

This team will be worse than the 90's because of the Free Agency era and no one to draw top talent.

I could only draw from the Yankees and Pistons[Bad Boys Forever] for all the Championship feelings. 

(09-21-2019, 04:47 PM)TKUHL Wrote: I was thinking if Taylor’s Bengals go 0-16 would it change the way you view Marvin as a HC. May not be fair since Taylor has a different staff but many of the key players are the same. I don’t think Marvin is with any team at the moment but maybe Marvin will actually benefit from a winless season. I’ve been as critical as anyone wanting Marvin gone years ago. In no way what so ever am I suggesting we bring him back, or if we are better with or without Marvin. I know there are a few here that think any kind of signification change with this organization will automatically damn us back to the 90’s. I’m Just curious what everyone thinks.

Not at all, this is still pretty much Marvin's team and if MB isn't willing to help ZT with quality FA's then this is what we get.
I'm thinking that the reason FA's weren't brought in is because ZT didn't have a lot of time to get to know the players weaknesses.
He will know them this next off-season and will be able to focus on finding FA's that fit better here. MB doesn't have a problem opening up the strings too much. He just loves those comp draft picks a bit to much.

1. Marvin Lewis had his chance and could not get it done. I said he had to go after the 2017 season.

2. The people who said "anyone but Marvin" were clueless. Marvin was handicapped by possibly the worst front office in the league (Jags, Browns, Bucs, and Raiders might have been worse '03-'18), but still won more games and made the playoffs more than most other NFL teams.

3. It is too early to judge Zach Taylor. His O-line is a dumpster fire and his defense has some talent but looks lost way too often. Give him some talent upgrades and a new DC and he might improve dramatically.

I hated Marvin's game management on gamedays. WTS he was excellent X's O's coach preparing for a team. I'm thinking we have the opposite in Taylor. I'm starting to come to the realization while both are important the X's and O's might be more important

(10-22-2019, 01:46 AM)TKUHL Wrote: ahhhh I knew I had this post somewhere. We may be able to answer op’s question before the mid way point.

So does a winless season by Taylor change the way you view Marvin as a coach.

No.

(10-22-2019, 02:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not at all, this is still pretty much Marvin's team and if MB isn't willing to help ZT with quality FA's then this is what we get.
I'm thinking that the reason FA's weren't brought in is because ZT didn't have a lot of time to get to know the players weaknesses.
He will know them this next off-season and will be able to focus on finding FA's that fit better here. MB doesn't have a problem opening up the strings too much. He just loves those comp draft picks a bit to much.

Just like quality HC's would never come here, the same can be said about quality FA's.

Get ready for a rude awakening. Free Agency has killed small market teams in other sports. Yes, you can build a championship team through the draft for a year or two in other leagues with small market teams that don't use Free Agency.  But once those players hit the free agency of that  respected team then they are gone. 

What kept the NFL competitive over the years was the lack of free agency. Now that free agency has blossomed you won't find quality players coming here. Just like you could not get a quality HC to come here. 

Zack Taylor or any low quality HC the Bengals hire don't have the reputation, charisma, character to attract quality players to come play for a cheap ass organization that doesn't even have an indoor practice facility. 

We are not operated like an NFL franchise in 2019. You have to spend money outside of your roster. Facilities, perks, scouting.... we are easily the worst at any of those. Until we start spending money to compete with the rest of the NFL, we’ll never be a winning franchise. I don’t believe the Brown family has the money to compete in the modern NFL. Our owner does not operate the franchise like he wants to win. He operates it like a business to make money.

Until Marvin came players had to buy and bring their own Gatorade. But yeah brown isn’t cheap ?

It is only going to get worse....









 

(10-22-2019, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Marvin Lewis had his chance and could not get it done.  I said he had to go after the 2017 season.

2.  The people who said "anyone but Marvin" were clueless.  Marvin was handicapped by possibly the worst front office in the league (Jags, Browns, Bucs, and Raiders might have been worse '03-'18), but still won more games and made the playoffs more than most other NFL teams.

3.  It is too early to judge Zach Taylor.  His O-line is a dumpster fire and his defense has some talent but looks lost way too often.  Give him some talent upgrades and a new DC and he might improve dramatically.

Have you ever noticed how when you're defending Marvin it's the "worst front office in the league" ?

But in every other thread slamming the front office for this decision or that you defend them ?

(10-22-2019, 10:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Have you ever noticed how when you're defending Marvin it's the "worst front office in the league" ?

But in every other thread slamming the front office for this decision or that you defend them ?

I wish I could rep this post more than once.

This is looking like it could get so bad I may have to break out the Nirvana shirt and drink pre game 40 oz beers just hopeing for the little bit of success we had in the 90's.

(10-22-2019, 03:41 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: I hated Marvin's game management on gamedays. WTS he was excellent X's O's coach preparing for a team. I'm thinking we have the opposite in Taylor. I'm starting to come to the realization while both are important the X's and O's might be more important

Zac installed a playclock at the practice field. A PLAY CLOCK!!! WHAT MORE do YOU want??? 

(10-22-2019, 05:03 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Just like quality HC's would never come here, the same can be said about quality FA's.

Get ready for a rude awakening. Free Agency has killed small market teams in other sports. Yes, you can build a championship team through the draft for a year or two in other leagues with small market teams that don't use Free Agency.  But once those players hit the free agency of that  respected team then they are gone. 

What kept the NFL competitive over the years was the lack of free agency. Now that free agency has blossomed you won't find quality players coming here. Just like you could not get a quality HC to come here. 

Zack Taylor or any low quality HC the Bengals hire don't have the reputation, charisma, character to attract quality players to come play for a cheap ass organization that doesn't even have an indoor practice facility. 

We are not operated like an NFL franchise in 2019. You have to spend money outside of your roster. Facilities, perks, scouting.... we are easily the worst at any of those. Until we start spending money to compete with the rest of the NFL, we’ll never be a winning franchise. I don’t believe the Brown family has the money to compete in the modern NFL. Our owner does not operate the franchise like he wants to win. He operates it like a business to make money.

Until Marvin came players had to buy and bring their own Gatorade. But yeah brown isn’t cheap ?

It is only going to get worse....









 

There are lots of teams with cap space this upcoming offseason too. Actual teams that are rebuilding and have a plan.

(10-22-2019, 10:38 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wish I could rep this post more than once.

I gave it rep points too!

(10-22-2019, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Marvin Lewis had his chance and could not get it done.  I said he had to go after the 2017 season.

2.  The people who said "anyone but Marvin" were clueless.  Marvin was handicapped by possibly the worst front office in the league (Jags, Browns, Bucs, and Raiders might have been worse '03-'18), but still won more games and made the playoffs more than most other NFL teams.

3.  It is too early to judge Zach Taylor.  His O-line is a dumpster fire and his defense has some talent but looks lost way too often.  Give him some talent upgrades and a new DC and he might improve dramatically.

It is too early to judge ZT, but when you look at the shakiness of his resume, and Lou's, and Turner's and then factor in that we are 0-7 and our team is just so consistently awful in so many ways and...well, you get where I'm going with this.  If I hire someone with a sterling resume and he underperfoms early I get nervous, but he has a proven record of success I can fall back on to assure myself and my bosses.  If I hire someone with a shaky resume and he underperforms early I get very nervous because I have to try to justify why I hired a guy who didn't look ready before he got here and has flat-out drowned when he was thrown into the deep end.

A shaky or empty resume plus poor performance is a double whammy, so it's not too hard to see why people aren't full o' faith.


But hey, let's run this through the old "what if the Steelers did this?" machine.  So it's 2020 and Mike Tomlin is gone and the Steelers hire Dave Ragone to be their HC and they start the year 0-7...do we celebrate their demise?

(10-22-2019, 03:41 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: I hated Marvin's game management on gamedays. WTS he was excellent X's O's coach preparing for a team. I'm thinking we have the opposite in Taylor. I'm starting to come to the realization while both are important the X's and O's might be more important

I think Marvin was horrible at preparing for game. At least in Prime time, 4pm games, after bye week and playoffs. There have been plenty of games where we looked out coached and just flat.

(09-21-2019, 07:28 PM)TKUHL Wrote: The reason I asked this is because even though Marvin had his flaws, he did bring this team back to being competitive. 

Please explain how 0-7 is competitive.

(09-21-2019, 04:52 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: No, 16 years of Marvin and we know exactly what he is. What a rookie HC does with a worse OL won’t change a thing about Marvin. For gods sake we had him for 16 years! How could anyone not still not know who/what Marvin is. Nothing will change that

you don't seem to understand the impact marvin had on MB.....   And now that that is gone well we get this...