(12-23-2019, 01:23 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I’m sure I speak for you and certainly for myself but we do NOT want Joe Burrow to fail!  If he comes to Cincinnati we want him to break every existing quarterback record and lead the Bengals to a dynasty.  His failure, should it happen, will not be on him.  Joe Burrow is a great player who plays in a great system at LSU.  I’ve seen LSU play and Joe is elite, no question about it.

However, he is in an offensive system and plays under one of the most brilliant men in college football.  Don’t forget that.  Like many great college players who become Bengals, Joe may end up being “coached down” rather than “coached up.”  Good Lord I don’t want to see that happen!

I don't know... I don't really want him to fail.  However with the disrespect shown to Dalton, I would be just fine with the smug posters to have to eat crow. 

LSU has always been a decent team, their QBs haven't been that great, but for some reason Burrow is considered "elite" from 1 season on a decent team?  I don't buy it.

I don't really hate Burrow, the hype isn't his fault really.  Yes I do want to have the Bengals be successful, but we won't be, and neither will Burrow.  I know who we are taking and I just think it is a big mistake.  If I were in charge, I would take Thomas easily.  As far as QB goes... unfortunately Dalton is gone, so we need to address that.  I like Eason as a 2nd round pick.

(12-23-2019, 01:30 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I don't know... I don't really want him to fail.  However with the disrespect shown to Dalton, I would be just fine with the smug posters to have to eat crow. 

LSU has always been a decent team, their QBs haven't been that great, but for some reason Burrow is considered "elite" from 1 season on a decent team?  I don't buy it.

I don't really hate Burrow, the hype isn't his fault really.  Yes I do want to have the Bengals be successful, but we won't be, and neither will Burrow.  I know who we are taking and I just think it is a big mistake.  If I were in charge, I would take Thomas easily.  As far as QB goes... unfortunately Dalton is gone, so we need to address that.  I like Eason as a 2nd round pick.

  I'm assuming that a lot of these guys aren't old enough to remember Mike Ditka offering the Bengals ALL of the Saints draft picks to move up in the draft.


Mike Brown said no Thank you.


And promptly drafted his savior, a 1 yr wunderkind QB from Oregon. Gonna set the NFL on fire!! Drafted 3rd overall AKILI SMITH didn't live up to expectations:


During the four years he was with the Bengals, he started in only 17 games and threw just five touchdown passes next to 13 interceptions

Not trying to say Joe Burrow will flame out, and I hope like hell he doesn't. Just proves very high draft picks can fail...
  

(12-23-2019, 01:23 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Some of us are.  There are others that think Dalton was the sole issue and that we would be SB bound if we had a better QB.

These are the same ones that claim that Mixon's lack of production is due to everything else.

Literally no one thinks that. You’re a straight up liar. No one here thinks Mike Brown isn’t a problem. No one here thinks Marvin was a great coach being held back by a bad QB. No one here thinks our OL has been great the past few years. No one here thinks our LBers have been good the last few years. No one here thinks Taylor is a good player caller, etc, etc, etc .

Just stop with your bs.

(12-22-2019, 11:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I disagree with you though.

I understand where you're coming from, but I feel like we can do both. Parting with Dalton, Green and Glenn would clear 40+ million.

We could theoretically have as much as $100 million in space to totally reshape this roster.

Question is, will Mikey do it? Or will he just rely on Burrow selling tickets?

30 years has shown us the answer to that question.

Draft's Burrow, gets a 2nd round WR to replace A.J. gets a 3rd round OL and then maybe a 4th round LB? 

That is the Mike Brown way and it just leads to another 2 or 3 win season.

(12-23-2019, 01:23 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I’m sure I speak for you and certainly for myself but we do NOT want Joe Burrow to fail!  If he comes to Cincinnati we want him to break every existing quarterback record and lead the Bengals to a dynasty.  His failure, should it happen, will not be on him.  Joe Burrow is a great player who plays in a great system at LSU.  I’ve seen LSU play and Joe is elite, no question about it.

However, he is in an offensive system and plays under one of the most brilliant men in college football.  Don’t forget that.  Like many great college players who become Bengals, Joe may end up being “coached down” rather than “coached up.”  Good Lord I don’t want to see that happen!

This is what I'm afraid of. Joe Brady has done a fantastic job there. Burrow's turnaround was Drew Brees-like.

(12-23-2019, 01:54 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Literally no one thinks that. You’re a straight up liar. No one here thinks Mike Brown isn’t a problem. No one here thinks Marvin was a great coach being held back by a bad QB. No one here thinks our OL has been great the past few years. No one here thinks our LBers have been good the last few years. No one here thinks Taylor is a good player caller, etc, etc, etc .

Just stop with your bs.

I think it's fair to say a disproportionate amount of blame has been heaped on the QB. Despite our many problems, QB is always what we wind up talking about. People are super excited about Burrow (myself included in that), but do any of us really think this FO will fix the team around him? A segment of this board doesn't really talk about that it seems.

Instead, I often see people saying "well Andy never led us anywhere"  or "Andy couldn't win big games" as if Andy is the key reason we never won anything. Maybe those who say such things really do believe Mike, Marvin, etc are/were problems, but it's hard to tell when they're making such statements.

(12-23-2019, 02:18 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is what I'm afraid of. Joe Brady has done a fantastic job there. Burrow's turnaround was Drew Brees-like.


I think it's fair to say a disproportionate amount of blame has been heaped on the QB. Despite our many problems, QB is always what we wind up talking about. People are super excited about Burrow (myself included in that), but do any of us really think this FO will fix the team around him? A segment of this board doesn't really talk about that it seems.

Instead, I often see people saying "well Andy never led us anywhere"  or "Andy couldn't win big games" as if Andy is the key reason we never won anything. Maybe those who say such things really do believe Mike, Marvin, etc are/were problems, but it's hard to tell when they're making such statements.

That’s not what he said. He said there’s people here that think “Dalton is the sole reason we haven’t gone to the Super Bowl”

That’s total bs, Shake, and you know it. I know you (and most of the mods) like Andy but this Oswaldo guy is borderline trolling when every single one of his posts are antagonistic towards anyone criticizing Dalton.

LITERALLY NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON THINKS DALTON IS THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM. NOT A ONE.

Unless I just missed all the praise for Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, Bobby Hart, Dre Kirkpatrick, John Ross, Paul Alexander, Zac Taylor, Ken Zampese, and all the rest of the forum whipping boys that this place bashes on a daily basis...

(12-23-2019, 01:48 AM)JSR18 Wrote:   I'm assuming that a lot of these guys aren't old enough to remember Mike Ditka offering the Bengals ALL of the Saints draft picks to move up in the draft.


Mike Brown said no Thank you.


And promptly drafted his savior, a 1 yr wunderkind QB from Oregon. Gonna set the NFL on fire!! Drafted 3rd overall AKILI SMITH didn't live up to expectations:


During the four years he was with the Bengals, he started in only 17 games and threw just five touchdown passes next to 13 interceptions

Not trying to say Joe Burrow will flame out, and I hope like hell he doesn't. Just proves very high draft picks can fail...
  

Sadly, there is about a 50/50 chance of him being a bust

Here are the all the QBs taken in the first round since 2010

I bolded the ones that really have just not done anything to help their team improve. Giving the benefit of the doubt to a few guys like Tannehil since he has shown life in Tennessee, and Bridgewater looks good when healthy. The new class is on a yet to be decided slate.


Andrew Luck - Overall #1

Sam Bradford - Overall #1

Jameis Winston - Overall #1 (Yeah...great stats but all the INTs and Tampa sucks still)

Cam Newton - Overall #1

Jared Goff - Overall #1

Baker Mayfield - Overall #1 (Another year another sub .500 finish)

Kyler Murray - Overall #1

Carson Wentz - Overall #2

RG3 - Overall #2 

Marcus Mariota - Overall #2

Mitchell Trubisky - Overall #2 

Blake Bortles - Overall #3

Sam Darnold - Overall #3

Daniel Jones - Overall #6

Josh Allen - Overall #7

Jake Locker - Overall #8

Ryan Tannehill - Overall #8 (And a great example of what happens to a good QB on a disaster of a team, look at him now with Tenn)

Blaine Gabbert - Overall #10

Josh Rosen - Overall #10

Patrick Mahomes - Overall #10

Deshaun Watson - Overall #12

Christian Ponder - Overall #12

Dwayne Haskins - Overall #15

E.J. Manuel - Overall #16

Johnny Manziel - Overall #22

Brandon Weeden - Overall #22

Tim TeBow - Overall #25

Paxton Lynch - Overall #26

Lamar Jackson - Overall ##32

Teddy Bridgewater - Overall #32




 I just feel like as bad as this team has been recently with first round picks, (Jonah (hurt), Price (not good), John Ross (crap), Jackson III (kinda regressing but I still have hope), Cedric...just no,) that gamble on a one year wonder really is just too big of a gamble. 

They miss on this pick and it screws them for years.

(12-23-2019, 03:00 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sadly, there is about a 50/50 chance of him being a bust

Here are the all the QBs taken in the first round since 2010

I bolded the ones that really have just not done anything to help their team improve. Giving the benefit of the doubt to a few guys like Tannehil since he has shown life in Tennessee, and Bridgewater looks good when healthy. The new class is on a yet to be decided slate.


Andrew Luck - Overall #1


Sam Bradford - Overall #1

Jameis Winston - Overall #1 (Yeah...great stats but all the INTs and Tampa sucks still)

Cam Newton - Overall #1

Jared Goff - Overall #1

Baker Mayfield - Overall #1 (Another year another sub .500 finish)


Kyler Murray - Overall #1

Carson Wentz - Overall #2

RG3 - Overall #2 

Marcus Mariota - Overall #2

Mitchell Trubisky - Overall #2 

Blake Bortles - Overall #3

Sam Darnold - Overall #3

Daniel Jones - Overall #6

Josh Allen - Overall #7


Jake Locker - Overall #8

Ryan Tannehill - Overall #8 (And a great example of what happens to a good QB on a disaster of a team, look at him now with Tenn)

Blaine Gabbert - Overall #10



Josh Rosen - Overall #10

Patrick Mahomes - Overall #10

Deshaun Watson - Overall #12

Christian Ponder - Overall #12

Dwayne Haskins - Overall #15

E.J. Manuel - Overall #16


Johnny Manziel - Overall #22


Brandon Weeden - Overall #22

Tim TeBow - Overall #25



Paxton Lynch - Overall #26

Lamar Jackson - Overall ##32

Teddy Bridgewater - Overall #32






 I just feel like as bad as this team has been recently with first round picks, (Jonah (hurt), Price (not good), John Ross (crap), Jackson III (kinda regressing but I still have hope), Cedric...just no,) that gamble on a one year wonder really is just too big of a gamble. 

They miss on this pick and it screws them for years.

All the current best QB’s outside of Wilson and Rodgers are on that list though.

Jackson, Mahomes, Watson...

Seems to me it’s a point FOR taking a QB in the 1st.

(12-23-2019, 03:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: All the current best QB’s outside of Wilson and Rodgers are on that list though.

Jackson, Mahomes, Watson...

Seems to me it’s a point FOR taking a QB in the 1st.

Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, and even the other top 3 were all taken after other QBs.

To me it really shows that for a QB to be able to be elite he has to have a solid foundation around him as he transitions to the league. 

No matter the records set in college, it is a different game when you go Pro and a rookie will take his lumps. Easier to take those lumps with a solid core of guys around you versus taking lumps in a no win situation.

(12-23-2019, 03:46 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, and even the other top 3 were all taken after other QBs.

To me it really shows that for a QB to be able to be elite he has to have a solid foundation around him as he transitions to the league. 

No matter the records set in college, it is a different game when you go Pro and a rookie will take his lumps. Easier to take those lumps with a solid core of guys around you versus taking lumps in a no win situation.

I said the current best QB’s which Brady is definitely not one of at this point. The trend in the league right now is drafting a good young QB high and building around him while he’s on his rookie contract. That’s what we need to do. Use the money saved on Dalton (and maybe AJ) to fix some of the holes we have right now. We can talk about whether Mike Brown will actually do it all we want, but that’s what should be done.

(12-23-2019, 03:53 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I said the current best QB’s which Brady is definitely not one of at this point. The trend in the league right now is drafting a good young QB high and building around him while he’s on his rookie contract. That’s what we need to do. Use the money saved on Dalton (and maybe AJ) to fix some of the holes we have right now. We can talk about whether Mike Brown will actually do it all we want, but that’s what should be done.

Should is 100% correct. 

That is why I have been against drafting Burrow and all in favor of trading the pick. It isn't anything against Burrow, might be great, might be a dud, might be average but one thing is certain. Mike Brown won't fix this team with starting level FA's and if you have to build through the draft, have to get as many picks as possible and hope you build a solid core. 

(12-23-2019, 04:09 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Should is 100% correct. 

That is why I have been against drafting Burrow and all in favor of trading the pick. It isn't anything against Burrow, might be great, might be a dud, might be average but one thing is certain. Mike Brown won't fix this team with starting level FA's and if you have to build through the draft, have to get as many picks as possible and hope you build a solid core. 

But most don’t believe we’re capable of drafting well, so what does it matter? I’d rather roll the dice on the chance at an elite QB rather than draft a bunch of Billy Price, John Ross, Drew Sample, type players that aren’t going to move the needle.

(12-23-2019, 04:24 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But most don’t believe we’re capable of drafting well, so what does it matter? I’d rather roll the dice on the chance at an elite QB rather than draft a bunch of Billy Price, John Ross, Drew Sample, type players that aren’t going to move the needle.

But that’s not really a fair comparison. At a top 5-7 pick, especially in this draft, we’re guarenteed a top elite prospect. Price was a 20s pick in a top heavy draft, Ross was in a draft with not much elite talent. This draft is extremely elite and extremely deep. I’d rather take a shot on a love where if he reaches his boom, he’s Patrick mahomes in rd2, and STILL get that elite talent can’t miss prospect in young, while possibly getting a 2nd elite talent in love. Love to me his floor is winstons inconsistency’s with a more athletic mariota. Ceiling is pat mahomes. If he lands in the middle? He’s at worst what? A Matt Ryan? Stafford? I’ll take that.

(12-23-2019, 04:24 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But most don’t believe we’re capable of drafting well, so what does it matter? I’d rather roll the dice on the chance at an elite QB rather than draft a bunch of Billy Price, John Ross, Drew Sample, type players that aren’t going to move the needle.

But that’s not really a fair comparison. At a top 5-7 pick, especially in this draft, we’re guarenteed a top elite prospect. Price was a 20s pick in a top heavy draft, Ross was in a draft with not much elite talent. This draft is extremely elite and extremely deep. I’d rather take a shot on a love where if he reaches his boom, he’s Patrick mahomes in rd2, and STILL get that elite talent can’t miss prospect in young, while possibly getting a 2nd elite talent in love. Love to me his floor is winstons inconsistency’s with a more athletic mariota. Ceiling is pat mahomes. If he lands in the middle? He’s at worst what? A Matt Ryan? Stafford? I’ll take that.

(12-23-2019, 06:32 AM)Jpoore Wrote: But that’s not really a fair comparison. At a top 5-7 pick, especially in this draft, we’re guarenteed a top elite prospect. Price was a 20s pick in a top heavy draft, Ross was in a draft with not much elite talent. This draft is extremely elite and extremely deep. I’d rather take a shot on a love where if he reaches his boom, he’s Patrick mahomes in rd2, and STILL get that elite talent can’t miss prospect in young, while possibly getting a 2nd elite talent in love. Love to me his floor is winstons inconsistency’s with a more athletic mariota. Ceiling is pat mahomes. If he lands in the middle? He’s at worst what? A Matt Ryan? Stafford? I’ll take that.

There is no such thing as a “cant miss prospect.” Let’s not reserve a place in Canton for Chase Young just yet...

(12-22-2019, 11:24 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: David Klinglers?  What a comparison!  With such a defeatist attitude, why even put a QB out there?  They should probably sign the 5 most expensive FA o-line on the market and spend all of their draft picks on linemen.  Then they can play a jumbo Wildcat formation and play 1950s style ball with all of their talented o-linemen!  QB play just DOES NOT matter in the modern league, folks!  Tom Bradys would not fare ANY BETTER than Tyrod Taylors with a poor line in front of him.  

Zeitlers and Whitworths were indeed good players who were not replaced.  Mike Browns prefers to snicker to himself in the mirror that he got "good value" rather than pay market prices for FAs.

They would win more than one game if they did that! I don’t care if it is pop warner or NFL. If you have a great line you will win ball games. It is all won at the line. It’s that simple. Unfortunate Mikey is 86 spent his whole life in football and still doesn’t get it.


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(12-23-2019, 04:24 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But most don’t believe we’re capable of drafting well, so what does it matter? I’d rather roll the dice on the chance at an elite QB rather than draft a bunch of Billy Price, John Ross, Drew Sample, type players that aren’t going to move the needle.

1,000-1

It's the only decent chance we've got. What about how this team has been ran for nearly 3 decades gives anybody the belief this Owner/GM, F.O. and staff have any chance at having a draft/offseason plan and actually working it ?

To add to your examples Ogbuehi, Fisher, Guicheic, or however you spell it ? Bodine, Hunt, the like 3rd round LB 2 or 3 years ago. I mean it's a very long list of draft busts and trying to put square pegs in round holes.

It blows my mind when people start talking trading down, trading back up, doing this and that. The people running this team don't have that level of competence !

[quote='Nicomo Cosca' pid='815435' dateline='LITERALLY NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON THINKS DALTON IS THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM. NOT A ONE.

[/quote]


I totally disagree with this statement. I have been reading the anti-Dalton posts from many for the past three years. In preseason it is the QB draft in fourth round. Remember all the hype for McCaron (besides his very very hot wife)? He was going to take the Bengals to the Super Bowl. Than there was Finley this year. Same posts...no many on this board are so dense they believe the only issue on this team is Dalton which is so wrong.


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(12-23-2019, 02:18 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is what I'm afraid of. Joe Brady has done a fantastic job there. Burrow's turnaround was Drew Brees-like.


I think it's fair to say a disproportionate amount of blame has been heaped on the QB. Despite our many problems, QB is always what we wind up talking about. People are super excited about Burrow (myself included in that), but do any of us really think this FO will fix the team around him? A segment of this board doesn't really talk about that it seems.

Instead, I often see people saying "well Andy never led us anywhere"  or "Andy couldn't win big games" as if Andy is the key reason we never won anything. Maybe those who say such things really do believe Mike, Marvin, etc are/were problems, but it's hard to tell when they're making such statements.

And praise, that's the way it's always been and that's the way it will always be.

And I think most do understand the very long list of problems with this team from top to bottom. It's just that Dalton is the most visible target. I fully believe that had the right buttons been pushed AD could have had much more success here, same with CP9. But MB refuses to push those buttons and/or doesn't know how and refuses to let somebody who does run the show.

Put Dalton on the 88 Bengals with that Oline and we're winning some games. He could have been J. McMahon on the 85 Bears. He could win with the 19 niners, name a Patriots team ? 

The problem comes in because we aren't ever going to build one of those type teams or have the coaching under MB ! And Dalton isn't a QB who can take a team on his back and rise above it.

Its weird how there is some thought that for the fans who want Burrow, thats all they want and think we need to turn it around completely. I have not seen a single person even hint of that terrible idea. The idea that we will draft Joe and cash it in is ridiculous lol.

We all know we are in rebuilding mode. Do you want to rebuild around a 30+ year old QB who we have had 9 years to evaluate his zero playpff wins and terrible prime time performances, or build around a young talented QB who looks to be the best to come out in the draft in a looong time? Could Burrow bust? Sure, so couldve Dalton and AJ and anyone who is ever taken in the draft. Its part of the game. Grow up about it.

Andy is not a terrible QB especially if the team around him is built up. But he's over 30 and in the downside of his career. Common sense says a new coach who is tasked with rebuilding this team, is probably going to go find him a young QB to build around. You dont draft Burrow and hand him the crown and staff. You draft him and build the pieces around him to succeed. Why does this even need explained lol?