So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb. Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb.  Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

I think an elite QB give you a better chance at longer sustained success. For example in the AFC for the past 17 years prior to this year you couldn't watch the divisional round without the name Manning, Brady, or Roethlisberger. 

Imagine the Seahawks without Russel Wilson.  Imagine the Packers without Aaron Rodgers.  There's your answer.

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb.  Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

I don't disagree with you, but a franchise QB can put you in the winning it all talk each year.

Yesterday we saw 4 mediocre QB performances. We saw one QB win by 16 points while throwing for 73 yards after winning last week by throwing for less than 100 yards. How did he win? He won due to an awesome running  game, no turnovers and hos defense making huge plays on 4th downs and getting multiple turnovers. Ryan T. has gone from goat to hero in the eyes of many by managing a very good team.

Jimmy G. also was not impressive (eye test) as he should have thrown multiple picks and looked like he lacks arm strength. But, he won because his defense was great only giving up 10 points (making Cousins look bad) and no second half points.

This is why many feel we need to fix the trenches on both sides while adding that franchise QB like Burrow. The addition of Burrow will not be enough.

Drafting Burrow and dumping either Dalton/Green or both would produce enough funds to add in Free Agency or picks for trade.

Who even knows if Joe is truly "elite"? He's flashed this season.

He does look like he he has the tools to navigate a team and lead.

Does this mean the OP wants to keep Dalton or draft a QB later?

Please explain.

There are two effective ways of building an offense.

1. Find an elite quarterback then build an offensive system around him.

2. Build a reliable offensive system then find a suitable quarterback to manage it.

Both systems have been proven to work. The first system creates greater potential for explosive plays — but with increased risk. The second system is more consistent overall.

Here are the Super Bowl Winning QBs since 2000.

2000-Trent Dilfer
2001-Tom Brady
2002-Brad Johnson
2003-Tom Brady
2004-Tom Brady
2005-Ben Roethlisberger
2006-Peyton Manning
2007-Eli Manning
2008-Ben Roethlisberger
2009-Drew Brees
2010-Aaron Rodgers
2011-Eli Manning
2012-Joe Flacco
2013-Russell Wilson
2014-Tom Brady
2015-Peyton Manning
2016-Tom Brady
2017-Nick Foles
2018-Tom Brady

Of those, I’d consider Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, and Nick Foles to not be elite QBs. Of those, Dilfer, Johnson, and Flacco had amazing individual seasons backed up by elite defenses. In Foles SB winning year he was a back up during the regular season, where Carson Wentz had an amazing season backed up by an elite defense. None of the teams with these QBs had any sustained success.

This is the list of QBs with multiple starts in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Bob Griese, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Eli Manning, Len Dawson, Joe Theismann, Brett Favre, Russell Wilson, and Craig Morton.

The Oakland Raiders in the 70’s, the NY Giants in the late 80’s early 90’s, and the SF 49ers in the 80’s/90’s were the only teams I could find that had won Super Bowls within the same decade with two different QBs. The Raiders did it with Ken Stabler and Jim Plunkett. The Giants did it with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler. The 49ers did it with Joe Montana and Steve Young. The worst duo from that group is probably Simms and Hostetler? Not exactly slouches at the QB position.

Can you win without an elite QB? Yes, you can. Can you reliably win without an elite QB? I’m going to say no.

Ryan Tannehill and the Tennessee Titans beating the Ravens and Patriots in back to back games is not something to use as a reason to not draft a QB if you think they can be elite. Derrick Henry became the first player to rush for 180 yards in back to back playoff games. If anything you argue that an elite OL and an elite RB are still important pieces in today’s NFL, not that you don’t need a QB.

(01-12-2020, 11:33 AM)BengalsFan1986 Wrote: Ryan Tannehill and the Tennessee Titans beating the Ravens and Patriots in back to back games is not something to use as a reason to not draft a QB if you think they can be elite. Derrick Henry became the first player to rush for 180 yards in back to back playoff games. If anything you argue that an elite OL and an elite RB are still important pieces in today’s NFL, not that you don’t need a QB.

Right-o.  Tannehill went 1/4 for 9 yards in the second half of that game, so looking at him and declaring that you can win without an elite QB when there is decades of data of elite QBs making multiple runs is a bit myopic.  Remember, Bort Bortles was in the AFC championship game a few years ago, too. 

What it comes down to is every year there seems to be one QB who has a career year and makes it the final four or SB or all the way where he slugs it out with the elite QBs who are there every year before he regresses back towards the mean.  Let's see...which guy and his team were punching above their weight...

2019 - Tannehill and the Titans...this year there are actually new QBs in the final 4 rather than the old guard
2018 - Mitch Trubisky and the Bears (no one really went above and beyond this year)
2017 - Bort Bortles and the Jaguars...lost to a post-season staple in Brady
2016 - Tannehill and Carr played well and were injured in the playoffs, Matt Ryan was the MVP and lost the SB in OT to a QB who is a post-season staple
2015 - Cam Newton and Carson Palmer both had career years but an elite QB in an iron lung who couldn't play anymore still won the day


and so on

It just seems like every year there is a QB who puts it all together to make what ends up being his one single run at the SB and win or lose he tends to just go right back down to his prior levels of performance after that.  QB who is on fire for the first time in his career rises to the playoffs and has to run through a gauntlet of QBs who have been there year in and year out.

You can win with running and defense as long as you never have a few turnovers or bad plays that put you down by more than a TD in the fourth quarter.  

On the other had you can't depend soley on a QB because some times you have to play in bad weather.

There are exceptions to every rule, but you generally have to have a well balanced team to win consistently and compete for championships.

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb.  Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

Maybe we should trade back and like, draft Jordon Love or something lol. Wondering where I heard that before  

This thinking is up to the coach. It really depends on the preference and what you are working with.

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb.  Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

It could go both ways.   The Dolphins always had Dan Marino, the best thing since peanut butter back in the day and he never won them a super bowl. His only appearance was a blow out loss 38–16.


Then you have the other side of the coin with the Ravens & Bears and other teams winning with inferior offenses & QBs.


I prefer NOT to have player "stars" like the old school days that we currently have now. Andy and AJ to lead us to the SP, but rather more talented but anonymous players on the team working together to give us the edge every game (this requires a very seasoned HC unfortunately).


If you saw the TItans game yesterday, it was evident of the following.
1. Great QB & RB and overall above average offensive team.  Bosa and the D was contained.

2. Defense.  Good enough to be able to contain Lamar to sporadic runs going to the sideline rather than endzone. (key to winning yesterday)
3. Coaching. Vabrel & staff came to play. You can tell that the man knows what team he had and used his strengths to out wit their opponent.
Henry lobbing a TD to the endzone to ice the game, no Tannerhill which are big flags for a trick play and still make it work.


Pretty impressive.  

Very pleased the ratbirds not getting to the SuperBowl. ha!
Lamar in playoffs 0-2

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb.  Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

How many years did Nick Foles play in a conference championship game? Tannehill? Dilfer? Johnson? etc etc etc

So you take a handful of instances where it's happened and want to go that route instead of getting a guy like Brees, Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, that gives you the chance to be there multiple times in their careers?

Yeah, that makes sense.

(01-12-2020, 08:50 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Imagine the Seahawks without Russel Wilson.  Imagine the Packers without Aaron Rodgers.  There's your answer.

I totally see your point, but . . .

Aaron Rodgers in 2018
25 TDs - 2 INT - 7.4 y/a - 62.3 cmp% - 4,442 yards - 6W-9L-1
Aaron Rodgers in 2019
26 TDs - 4 INT - 7.0 y/a - 62.0 cmp% - 4,002 yards - 13W-3L


It's nice to have a great QB, but football is, was and always will be, a team sport. How well managed or mis-managed they are also factors in.

Elite QB’s left in the playoffs;

Mahomes
Watson
Wilson
Rodgers


Non-elite QB’s left in the playoffs:

Tannehill
Jimmy G


Still looks like pretty good odds of an elite QB winning it all to me...

Last 10 QBs to win the Super Bowl: Brees, Rogers, Eli Manning, Flacco, Wilson, Peyton Manning, Foles, and Brady three times.

So non-elite QBs win the Super Bowl about 30% of the time in recent history. There is an argument to be made for trading back to improve the overall quality of the team. But, suggesting elite QBs are an outdated paradigm for Super Bowl success based upon recent history is so preposterous I can’t even take the suggestion seriously. It’s pure fantasy.

I was going to start a new thread but saw this one and decided to add here.

Bottom line from the yesterday's Titans/Ravens game:

1. You can win with an average QB as long as both sides of the ball are sound, along with good coaching and strategy.

2.  It also proves, even though you are the second best organization in the NFL, (Ravens) and have a Heisman Trophy winning QB, it's not an automatic formula for a Lombardi!

My conclusion for Bengal fans, don't think IF the Bengals draft Burrow, it is the answer to a Lombardi!

Lamar Jackson still hasn't won a playoff game.

(01-12-2020, 11:33 AM)BengalsFan1986 Wrote: Here are the Super Bowl Winning QBs since 2000.

2000-Trent Dilfer
2001-Tom Brady
2002-Brad Johnson
2003-Tom Brady
2004-Tom Brady
2005-Ben Roethlisberger
2006-Peyton Manning
2007-Eli Manning
2008-Ben Roethlisberger
2009-Drew Brees
2010-Aaron Rodgers
2011-Eli Manning
2012-Joe Flacco
2013-Russell Wilson
2014-Tom Brady
2015-Peyton Manning
2016-Tom Brady
2017-Nick Foles
2018-Tom Brady

Of those, I’d consider Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, and Nick Foles to not be elite QBs. Of those, Dilfer, Johnson, and Flacco had amazing individual seasons backed up by elite defenses. In Foles SB winning year he was a back up during the regular season, where Carson Wentz had an amazing season backed up by an elite defense. None of the teams with these QBs had any sustained success.

This is the list of QBs with multiple starts in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Bob Griese, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Eli Manning, Len Dawson, Joe Theismann, Brett Favre, Russell Wilson, and Craig Morton.

The Oakland Raiders in the 70’s, the NY Giants in the late 80’s early 90’s, and the SF 49ers in the 80’s/90’s were the only teams I could find that had won Super Bowls within the same decade with two different QBs. The Raiders did it with Ken Stabler and Jim Plunkett. The Giants did it with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler. The 49ers did it with Joe Montana and Steve Young. The worst duo from that group is probably Simms and Hostetler? Not exactly slouches at the QB position.

Can you win without an elite QB? Yes, you can. Can you reliably win without an elite QB? I’m going to say no.

Ryan Tannehill and the Tennessee Titans beating the Ravens and Patriots in back to back games is not something to use as a reason to not draft a QB if you think they can be elite. Derrick Henry became the first player to rush for 180 yards in back to back playoff games. If anything you argue that an elite OL and an elite RB are still important pieces in today’s NFL, not that you don’t need a QB.

Bro, Eli Manning is NOT an elite QB!!!  PLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!!!

(01-12-2020, 03:45 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Bro, Eli Manning is NOT an elite QB!!!  PLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!!!

That’s fine. He’s more than likely making it into the Hall of Fame, but we can say he also isn’t elite. Now there are 5 QBs since 2000 that have won a Super Bowl that aren’t elite, one of them won it twice. Non elite QBs win the super bowl once every 3 or 4 years then. I’d still take my chances with the elite QB as opposed to the average QB and all the other pieces of the team falling into place.

(01-12-2020, 06:25 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking especially when u can get at least 3 elite players for the price of a elite qb. Ryan tannehill and Nick foles are just the latest examples.... put a team around them, surround them with coaching, look what happens. One a super bowl winner, the other a game away from the Super Bowl. Yes I’m referencing the draft for this. Trade back.

LOL. The bengals have a great track record of turning picks into “elite” players, right? It’s just that easy, I guess.