So the Dolphins started out tanking for Tua and that didn't work out for them. And now that it would be much easier to get into position to draft Tua, possibly even by staying where the already are, it turns out it's Burrow that they really want?

I still say that franchise is a shit show, no matter how much people love South Beach. Never been to Miami, btw, but I've been told by people who have been there, that if you take away South Beach, Miami is basically a shit hole.

(04-02-2020, 11:08 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is such a a tired and lazy comparison. The stats have been posted multiple times, so I’m not going to bother yet again, but what Burrow did in the best conference, against 7 top 10 teams, and then in the NCG against a dominant Clemson team is not even remotely comparable to Akili Smith throwing a bunch of TD’s in the PAC 10.

It's not a tired and lazy comparison at all.  It's a near-identical situation because college stats and success, no matter how incredible, cannot guarantee a successful NFL career.  Both Akili and Burrow were/are thought to be franchise QBs.  Numerous pundits had Akili as the No. 1 QB in the '99 class, which was compared favorably to the '83 class, which gave us Elway, Marino, and Kelly.  You can easily say today that Burrow is a far better prospect than Akili ever was, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.  That simply was not the case in '99, when he and Couch were thought to be two of the best QB prospects EVER.  Akili had a great senior season and one of the best pro days ever seen.  Lack of prior success was explained away as late bloomer/getting used to the system (very similar to Burrow).

I lived through the '99 draft, and I remember watching it live on ESPN with my college roommates.  Browns pick was a toss-up between Couch and Akili.  Consensus was that the Eagles would go Williams, leaving the other marquee QB for the Bengals.  I was pissed when the Browns took Couch (the guy I wanted), astonished when the Eagles took McNabb over Williams, and generally pleased when Akili fell to us.  Commentary that day and throughout the following week/month fully supported the Bengals pick, and many experts -- Kiper specifically -- thought Akili was the best of the bunch.  No one at that time said we should have taken Ditka's offer -- remember that it had been on the table since winter meetings and no one bit until the 'Skins, after the top 3 QBs were gone -- and the general consensus at that time was that a franchise QB was more important and valuable than an entire draft.  The first time anyone suggested that maybe we should have taken the offer was months later when Akili held out of training camp.  And recall that Mike Brown did give Ditka a counter -- something like your entire draft plus each first rounder for the next 5 years -- and the consensus was STILL that that haul wasn't enough for a franchise QB.

So the actual question at issue is identical -- how many draft picks is a potential franchise QB worth?  That's all Akili was, and all Burrow currently is.  It's easy to say today that you wouldn't give up the right to draft Burrow for anything, and that's fine -- many NFL experts said the same thing about Akili in '99.  Mike Brown, being the practical genius that he is (sarcasm), recognized that there is some point where the additional picks (each of whom are also potential franchise players, albeit less potential) are worth more than the one potential franchise QB, when he countered with something like 6 firsts, 6 others, and whatever else he was asking for.  I'm sure the same is true here -- if someone, be it Miami or Carolina or what have you, offers Mike enough draft capital for the No. 1, he probably will take it.  If they don't, he wont.  

If we end up standing pat and taking Burrow (as I think we will), and he turns out to be a true franchise QB (as we all hope he will), we'll be glad that we passed on all offers.  We'll pat ourselves on the back, saying we knew all along he'd be awesome, yadda yadda.  But if we take him and he can't play like Akili, or shreds an ACL in the first preseason game like Ki-Jana, or gets in trouble for off-the-field issues like Schlichter, or gets fat and addicted to the purple drank like JaMarcus, or all of the above like Leaf -- we'll all wish we took the picks, regardless of the offer.  Because of hindsight.  Because at this point, we simply have no idea how Burrow will fare in the NFL, just like we didn't with Akili.  Is there a better chance that he'll be better than Akili, based on his college stats and success?  Sure, but the fact is we don't and can't know for sure.  So yeah, it's pretty much an identical situation. 

(04-02-2020, 11:11 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Everyone in the Bengals front office has the internet.

And, believe it or not, they do use it to look at what their fans are thinking.

They usually don't take it into account, at least not word for word.

But make no mistake. The Bengals coaches, scouts, front office executives and owners all know that every Bengals fan in the world is on board with Joe Burrow at 1.

To not take him would be virtually suicide, from a franchise's standpoint. We'd have a full scale mutiny the likes of which we've never seen in sports before.

And, if they don't take Burrow, it would need to be because of a literally franchise altering group of picks.

I'm not talking "fair market value" either. I see these mock drafts where the Bengals get 1 additional first round pick and a 2nd round pick this year. And the logic they use is "three first round picks in this deal would be too much."

Those mock drafts are ***** insulting.

We're talking "I can't believe a franchise would be so ballsy to ever offer that much for 1 player" levels of value.

I'm thinking the minimum asking price is all of Miami's 1st and 2nd round picks this year and next year (that's 5 first round picks and 4 2nd round picks). And even then I'd still require Tua before making that trade. We need to come out of this draft with either Burrow or Tua + a ton of picks.

Does that make you feel better?

Good points.  I think another issue that goes overlooked is that this is actually a terrible year to do the proverbial "boatload of picks" trade simply due to the fact that teams have been limited to the amount and quality of scouting they can do due to the COVID outbreak.  It's hard to pass on the consensus #1 pick because you can't have as much confidence in those late 1st's Miami would hypothetically throw in because you simply don't have as much information as you normally would.

Just looked it up -- Mike Brown's actual counter was the Saints entire '99 draft plus their first round picks over the next three drafts. So 4 firsts and 5 others.

"Saints had offered Cincinnati all six of their picks in the 1999 draft along with their first- and third-round picks in 2000. The Bengals countered by asking for all the Saints' 1999 picks plus their first-rounders in the next three drafts."

Same article had this interesting quote by Brown:

"Mike Brown (in 2000): "If Akili pans out, I'd rather have him than all those other guys. I know this: We weren't the only team that didn't take the trade. It's all going to come down to Akili. If he works out, then it was the right thing.""

The same can be said for Burrow -- he is the right choice "if he works out." If.

(04-02-2020, 12:35 PM)shanebo Wrote: It's not a tired and lazy comparison at all.  It's a near-identical situation because college stats and success, no matter how incredible, cannot guarantee a successful NFL career.  Both Akili and Burrow were/are thought to be franchise QBs.  Numerous pundits had Akili as the No. 1 QB in the '99 class, which was compared favorably to the '83 class, which gave us Elway, Marino, and Kelly.  You can easily say today that Burrow is a far better prospect than Akili ever was, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.  That simply was not the case in '99, when he and Couch were thought to be two of the best QB prospects EVER.  Akili had a great senior season and one of the best pro days ever seen.  Lack of prior success was explained away as late bloomer/getting used to the system (very similar to Burrow).

I lived through the '99 draft, and I remember watching it live on ESPN with my college roommates.  Browns pick was a toss-up between Couch and Akili.  Consensus was that the Eagles would go Williams, leaving the other marquee QB for the Bengals.  I was pissed when the Browns took Couch (the guy I wanted), astonished when the Eagles took McNabb over Williams, and generally pleased when Akili fell to us.  Commentary that day and throughout the following week/month fully supported the Bengals pick, and many experts -- Kiper specifically -- thought Akili was the best of the bunch.  No one at that time said we should have taken Ditka's offer -- remember that it had been on the table since winter meetings and no one bit until the 'Skins, after the top 3 QBs were gone -- and the general consensus at that time was that a franchise QB was more important and valuable than an entire draft.  The first time anyone suggested that maybe we should have taken the offer was months later when Akili held out of training camp.  And recall that Mike Brown did give Ditka a counter -- something like your entire draft plus each first rounder for the next 5 years -- and the consensus was STILL that that haul wasn't enough for a franchise QB.

So the actual question at issue is identical -- how many draft picks is a potential franchise QB worth?  That's all Akili was, and all Burrow currently is.  It's easy to say today that you wouldn't give up the right to draft Burrow for anything, and that's fine -- many NFL experts said the same thing about Akili in '99.  Mike Brown, being the practical genius that he is (sarcasm), recognized that there is some point where the additional picks (each of whom are also potential franchise players, albeit less potential) are worth more than the one potential franchise QB, when he countered with something like 6 firsts, 6 others, and whatever else he was asking for.  I'm sure the same is true here -- if someone, be it Miami or Carolina or what have you, offers Mike enough draft capital for the No. 1, he probably will take it.  If they don't, he wont.  

If we end up standing pat and taking Burrow (as I think we will), and he turns out to be a true franchise QB (as we all hope he will), we'll be glad that we passed on all offers.  We'll pat ourselves on the back, saying we knew all along he'd be awesome, yadda yadda.  But if we take him and he can't play like Akili, or shreds an ACL in the first preseason game like Ki-Jana, or gets in trouble for off-the-field issues like Schlichter, or gets fat and addicted to the purple drank like JaMarcus, or all of the above like Leaf -- we'll all wish we took the picks, regardless of the offer.  Because of hindsight.  Because at this point, we simply have no idea how Burrow will fare in the NFL, just like we didn't with Akili.  Is there a better chance that he'll be better than Akili, based on his college stats and success?  Sure, but the fact is we don't and can't know for sure.  So yeah, it's pretty much an identical situation. 

Identical situation?  What a joke this entire paragraph is and what proof that there is no length to which some people won't go to try to prove a ridiculous point.  Slap your keyboard for conjuring up this mountain of drivel.

Apparently, nobody should ever draft a QB cuz JaMarcus Russell was fat and lazy.

(04-02-2020, 12:06 PM)McC Wrote: So the Dolphins started out tanking for Tua and that didn't work out for them. And now that it would be much easier to get into position to draft Tua, possibly even by staying where the already are, it turns out it's Burrow that they really want?

I still say that franchise is a shit show, no matter how much people love South Beach. Never been to Miami, btw, but I've been told by people who have been there, that if you take away South Beach, Miami is basically a shit hole.

I agree with your general premise, but in fairness, if you take away most cities' best features, they end up being shit holes... Crowded, crime, dirty, etc...

(04-02-2020, 01:01 PM)jason Wrote: I agree with your general premise, but in fairness, if you take away most cities' best features, they end up being shit holes... Crowded, crime, dirty, etc...

Yes, but do the other cities sell themselves as the garden spot of the world like Miami?

(04-02-2020, 11:11 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Everyone in the Bengals front office has the internet.

And, believe it or not, they do use it to look at what their fans are thinking.

They usually don't take it into account, at least not word for word.

But make no mistake. The Bengals coaches, scouts, front office executives and owners all know that every Bengals fan in the world is on board with Joe Burrow at 1.

To not take him would be virtually suicide, from a franchise's standpoint. We'd have a full scale mutiny the likes of which we've never seen in sports before.

And, if they don't take Burrow, it would need to be because of a literally franchise altering group of picks.

I'm not talking "fair market value" either. I see these mock drafts where the Bengals get 1 additional first round pick and a 2nd round pick this year. And the logic they use is "three first round picks in this deal would be too much."

Those mock drafts are ***** insulting.

We're talking "I can't believe a franchise would be so ballsy to ever offer that much for 1 player" levels of value.

I'm thinking the minimum asking price is all of Miami's 1st and 2nd round picks this year and next year (that's 5 first round picks and 4 2nd round picks). And even then I'd still require Tua before making that trade. We need to come out of this draft with either Burrow or Tua + a ton of picks.

Does that make you feel better?

Yeah, what CJD here says. Just not happening, we are taking Burrow no question about it.

Better for everyone that is for the Bengals and bad for everyone else.

I have practically zero fear of Burrow not being the pick. It would have to be a freak accident causing him injury or a legal/character matter like him getting caught with a hooker and an eight ball after wrecking his brand new Maserati. Other than that, he/we are golden. He fits Taylor's offense almost too well, he's from Ohio (I don't care what anyone says, this matters to Mikey), and his profile will bring national attention to the team that they'd never get otherwise.

(04-02-2020, 11:11 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Everyone in the Bengals front office has the internet.

And, believe it or not, they do use it to look at what their fans are thinking.

They usually don't take it into account, at least not word for word.

But make no mistake. The Bengals coaches, scouts, front office executives and owners all know that every Bengals fan in the world is on board with Joe Burrow at 1.

To not take him would be virtually suicide, from a franchise's standpoint. We'd have a full scale mutiny the likes of which we've never seen in sports before.

And, if they don't take Burrow, it would need to be because of a literally franchise altering group of picks.

I'm not talking "fair market value" either. I see these mock drafts where the Bengals get 1 additional first round pick and a 2nd round pick this year. And the logic they use is "three first round picks in this deal would be too much."

Those mock drafts are ***** insulting.

We're talking "I can't believe a franchise would be so ballsy to ever offer that much for 1 player" levels of value.

I'm thinking the minimum asking price is all of Miami's 1st and 2nd round picks this year and next year (that's 5 first round picks and 4 2nd round picks). And even then I'd still require Tua before making that trade. We need to come out of this draft with either Burrow or Tua + a ton of picks.

Does that make you feel better?

I agree with you about pick compensation.  It's a non-starter if Miami thinks they can even start the conversation offering an extra first and second and walk away with the number 1 overall.  I'd hang up on them.  

I'd want all firsts and seconds in 2020 with a 2nd in 2021 at minimum.   The beating the Bengals would take from fans would be savage, and they aren't in a position to sustain a (even more) disgruntled fanbase, not even after the terrific free agency period.  

They would have to get enough back to build a dynasty of young players for the next 5 years. I'm talking a Sapp-Brooks-Lynch draft. Or a draft like the ones that set Dallas up after the Walker trade.  Even then, it would be a hard sell.

I'm not going to sit here and lie to you, though.  I'd be disappointed not to have Burrow, but I'd still be excited as hell to watch a draft in which the Bengals had 7 picks in the first 2 days.  That plus the free agency bonanza would leave them looking absolutely stacked on paper heading into the next few seasons.  

That being said, if Burrow became anything close to what he's hyped to be, it would be a giant thorn in our side for his entire career.  If the Bengals failed to win anything with all of those picks, we would shit on them like a port-a-potty on the third day of a music festival forever and ever amen.  They cannot risk that.

(04-01-2020, 10:18 AM)BengalsFan1986 Wrote: How many times have we had multiple pro bowlers on this team, but were let down by our QB play when it mattered most? Even if you could promise me that we’d turn all 3 of Miami’s picks into perennial Pro Bowl level players, I think I’d still take Joe Burrow. The positions I’ve seen thrown out that we’d try to take with Miami’s picks are OL, WR, and LB. Didn’t we have Andrew Whitworth, AJ Green, and Vontaze Burfict on this team at the same time? And those teams had plenty of other talented players as well on both sides of the ball. Those guys never got us to where we wanted to be because, as much as I like Andy Dalton, our QB failed us at the most important times.

We have a chance to take a potentially great QB. If Joe Burrow was not in this draft class, then sure, let’s trade down and take our chances elsewhere. If Joe Burrow was not in this draft class though, no one would want to trade, they’d also take their chances elsewhere. This isn’t a normal QB coming out. He had the statistically best season a QB has ever had in college, with the tape to back it up. This wasn’t a Boise State or Hawaii QB tearing up the Mountain West either.

Could Joe Burrow be a terrible pick? Yes he could. But in terms of QBs coming out of college, he has potentially the best chance of anyone ever to be an all time great NFL QB. I would much rather take a chance on that, and miss, than end up with 3 potentially good players at any other position.

Someone please put this post in the HOF.

(04-02-2020, 12:52 PM)McC Wrote: Identical situation?  What a joke this entire paragraph is and what proof that there is no length to which some people won't go to try to prove a ridiculous point.  Slap your keyboard for conjuring up this mountain of drivel.

Apparently, nobody should ever draft a QB cuz JaMarcus Russell was fat and lazy.

Wow, you sound like a nice guy to hang out with!  :andy:

Based on Mike's demand in '99, if he thinks as highly of Burrow as he did of Akili, it would take at least 4 firsts, plus 5 picks in each round 3-7.  That would be the Dolphins' 3 first rounders this year, one of their two firsts next year, and one pick in each round 3-7 this year.  Unlikely they would agree to give up that much.  

(04-02-2020, 01:03 PM)McC Wrote: Yes, but do the other cities sell themselves as the garden spot of the world like Miami?

I actually spent a week in South Beach. That's nothing to write home about either....

As we all know, the Bengals haven't won a Playoff game longer than any other team.
If everyone recalls, the QB's they have had in Playoff games since 2000 have been a 2005 blown out knee Carson/Kitna, then only a running attack with Ced in 2009 and a Palmer arm not yet strong enough after surgery or with any good WR's.
Then, a young Dalton for 4 years straight, then McCarron in 2015. (Even though they should've won that game, it wasn't b/c of McCarron).

Either way, no Playoff wins with those QBs. They had stacked rosters in 2005 and 2015. They even blew that game at home against SD with Dalton and a stacked team. I didn't like the playcalling by Gruden either.

So, the stacked teams haven't panned out for us as other people have mentioned already. I think if they had elite QBs in all 7 of those games, they win some of those and maybe make a run. (The only exception to this whole post is the 2005 game. I think if Carson doesn't go down at the start of the game, Bengals win that one and Pittsburgh doesn't get another Lombardi. Oh well. Anyway, he was elite that year, better than Brady and Manning).

Elite/Generational QB's get it done in this league. It's a QB league, it's not a WR/DE/LB league.

If Burrow has the chance of having the "Juice", then you have to pull the trigger and not look back. No one will fault the Bengals for taking the CONSENSUS #1 rated QB in the Draft. But, they would get obliterated if they trade that pick for extra picks but watch Burrow have a great career or even worse a HOF career. We can't let that happen!!!

(04-02-2020, 12:35 PM)shanebo Wrote: It's not a tired and lazy comparison at all.  It's a near-identical situation because college stats and success, no matter how incredible, cannot guarantee a successful NFL career.  Both Akili and Burrow were/are thought to be franchise QBs.  Numerous pundits had Akili as the No. 1 QB in the '99 class, which was compared favorably to the '83 class, which gave us Elway, Marino, and Kelly.  You can easily say today that Burrow is a far better prospect than Akili ever was, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.  That simply was not the case in '99, when he and Couch were thought to be two of the best QB prospects EVER.  Akili had a great senior season and one of the best pro days ever seen.  Lack of prior success was explained away as late bloomer/getting used to the system (very similar to Burrow).

I lived through the '99 draft, and I remember watching it live on ESPN with my college roommates.  Browns pick was a toss-up between Couch and Akili.  Consensus was that the Eagles would go Williams, leaving the other marquee QB for the Bengals.  I was pissed when the Browns took Couch (the guy I wanted), astonished when the Eagles took McNabb over Williams, and generally pleased when Akili fell to us.  Commentary that day and throughout the following week/month fully supported the Bengals pick, and many experts -- Kiper specifically -- thought Akili was the best of the bunch.  No one at that time said we should have taken Ditka's offer -- remember that it had been on the table since winter meetings and no one bit until the 'Skins, after the top 3 QBs were gone -- and the general consensus at that time was that a franchise QB was more important and valuable than an entire draft.  The first time anyone suggested that maybe we should have taken the offer was months later when Akili held out of training camp.  And recall that Mike Brown did give Ditka a counter -- something like your entire draft plus each first rounder for the next 5 years -- and the consensus was STILL that that haul wasn't enough for a franchise QB.

So the actual question at issue is identical -- how many draft picks is a potential franchise QB worth?  That's all Akili was, and all Burrow currently is.  It's easy to say today that you wouldn't give up the right to draft Burrow for anything, and that's fine -- many NFL experts said the same thing about Akili in '99.  Mike Brown, being the practical genius that he is (sarcasm), recognized that there is some point where the additional picks (each of whom are also potential franchise players, albeit less potential) are worth more than the one potential franchise QB, when he countered with something like 6 firsts, 6 others, and whatever else he was asking for.  I'm sure the same is true here -- if someone, be it Miami or Carolina or what have you, offers Mike enough draft capital for the No. 1, he probably will take it.  If they don't, he wont.  

If we end up standing pat and taking Burrow (as I think we will), and he turns out to be a true franchise QB (as we all hope he will), we'll be glad that we passed on all offers.  We'll pat ourselves on the back, saying we knew all along he'd be awesome, yadda yadda.  But if we take him and he can't play like Akili, or shreds an ACL in the first preseason game like Ki-Jana, or gets in trouble for off-the-field issues like Schlichter, or gets fat and addicted to the purple drank like JaMarcus, or all of the above like Leaf -- we'll all wish we took the picks, regardless of the offer.  Because of hindsight.  Because at this point, we simply have no idea how Burrow will fare in the NFL, just like we didn't with Akili.  Is there a better chance that he'll be better than Akili, based on his college stats and success?  Sure, but the fact is we don't and can't know for sure.  So yeah, it's pretty much an identical situation. 

Those kinds of concerns are not even worth discussing. Not if you know anything at all about Joe Burrow as a person, and what kind of work ethic he has.

Akili Smith didn’t break a bunch of records, and win a national championship. He was merely a good prospect. So no, it’s not even close to being an identical situation.

(04-02-2020, 04:07 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You know you’ve lost the argument when you have to resort to threatening someone...

Says the guy with a handgun in his avatar....

I didn't threaten you. I didn't curse towards you, and I most certainly didn't type an ENTIRE SENTENCE in bold.

I didn't realize that we were arguing. I thought it was just to tongue and cheek debate.

I most certainly didn't "lose" an argument with you. Time will tell how things turn out. There are no winners or losers at this point.

(04-02-2020, 04:18 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Says the guy with a handgun in his avatar....

I didn't threaten you. I didn't curse towards you, and I most certainly didn't type an ENTIRE SENTENCE in bold.

I didn't realize that we were arguing. I thought it was just to tongue and cheek debate.

I most certainly didn't "lose" an argument with you. Time will tell how things turn out. There are no winners or losers at this point.

LOL

Seriously? I have a painting by Canadian artist Alex Colville that one of my favorite movies (Heat) paid homage to as my avatar, and that’s supposed to be menacing? This is really going off the rails now.

And how else am I supposed to take someone telling me I wouldn’t dare say something if I was in front of them, other than a threat?

Say the Phins offer not 3 or 4 but 10 #1 picks for Burrow. Lets see. Bengals last 10 number one picks:

Andre Smith
Gresham
AJ Green
Kirkpatrick
Zeitler
Eifert
Dennard
Ogbuehi
WJ3
Ross
Price
J. Williams.

(04-02-2020, 04:48 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Say the Phins offer not 3 or 4 but 10 #1 picks for Burrow. Lets see. Bengals last 10 number one picks:

Andre Smith
Gresham
AJ Green
Kirkpatrick
Zeitler
Eifert
Dennard
Ogbuehi
WJ3
Ross
Price
J. Williams.

Still ugly, ain’t it Doc? Lol

We’d be better off asking for 2nds...

(04-01-2020, 08:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Because we live in the real world in which Tua has had surgeries on both ankles, and his hip.

Think of it this way, if Miami believes Tua and Burrow are the same talent-wise why in the world would they give up so much to ensure they get Burrow when Tua might be there at 5?

They wouldn’t. That’s why everyone values players differently. Me? If I’m offered 4 1st round picks, ESPECIALLY 3 in THIS DRAFT? I’m taking that all day provided I can get qb1 at 5. The ankle issues is a no. Issue bc 1. He had tightrope surgery on both ankles, when he didn’t need to, just to make them stronger. Also never had any issue with them after the tightrope surgery which he came back in less Han 2 weeks from btw.

(04-01-2020, 06:21 PM)JSR18 Wrote: Because Tua is damaged goods and therefore, not in Burrow's league...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Burrow 1 is a big question mark. And 2 tua is 100 percent healthy and has had extreme strengthening surgery on both ankle.

(04-02-2020, 12:57 AM)JSR18 Wrote: You did see the NC game, right? You saw how Trevor Lawrence looked sufficiently overmatched, right? Why would they Trade a franchise QB for a chance to draft Andy Dalton again next year??


I know I'm sounding like I want to pick an argument, but I don't. I just can't begin to understand how a team like the Bengals, who have floundered under mediocre at best and usually worse QBs for decades, are looking a potentially franchise changing QB right in the face and people want them to trade that QB for other picks and a decidedly inferior QB. Sounds like the definition of insanity to me... 

There is not a scout alive or dead that would pick joe burrow over trevor lawrence. He’ll burrow isn’t even qb1 in his own draft class let alone next year. Burrow is qb3 I. Next years class pretty substantially.